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  1. #796
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    These big tentpole superhero films are hugely important to the studios. Much of these studios profits are built off these multimillion dollar franchises.

    I doubt the studio would give singer more time by delaying the release date further given that they have share holders to answer to and quarterly earnings dependant on these films making vast sums of cash.

  2. #797
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I was not speaking as a studio exec after the bottom line,but even for them the trajectory was upward.The scrutiny MoS and BvS got was about the same.Logically you would expect on the criticism MoS got, for BvS to have made about the same amount of money as MoS. Yet BvS made much more for about the same budget and marketing.To say people went to see only Batman full well knowing Zack had directed MoS and had a particular take on Superman is tenuous ,sure it helped as did WW but it is logical to presume Batman alone did not bump the viewership.

    A counter argument could be made that many of those who went to see the film,did so precisely because they enjoyed the Superman in MoS and wanted to see how it is that he gets to antagonise the Batman

    With that trajectory especially after WW and Batman were praised in BvS means even to execs JL looked a good bet at upwards of a Billion haul.I actually believe though it's moot at this point that had Zack not stepped away and got to finish his version JL would have made in excess of a billion ,hiring Whedon put off many Snyder mythos fans,many openly say they did not watch the film in cinemas once Whedon was announced as collaborating
    If a movie with Superman and Batman meeting each other with a guest appearance by Wonder Woman couldn't make a billion, JL by the same creators with even more characters to juggle was never going to do it. Wonder Woman and Batman were well received in that movie, but mostly in a "damning with faint praise" sort of way. Wonder Woman was only in it for like five minutes, and though she made a good impression compared to the other two, she wasn't fully embraced until her solo movie. Affleck's performance was praised for what he had to work with, but the overall movie received criticism. BvS having an incredibly steep second weekend drop was proof that JL wasn't going to do much better and the execs were right to expect that the audience wasn't going to be fooled twice.

    Yeah, we had people saying they would boycott the movie over Whedon. That's just people making noise on the internet, most of the general audience doesn't know or care about any of the behind the scenes drama.

  3. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    These big tentpole superhero films are hugely important to the studios. Much of these studios profits are built off these multimillion dollar franchises.

    I doubt the studio would give singer more time by delaying the release date further given that they have share holders to answer to and quarterly earnings dependant on these films making vast sums of cash.
    That's the point, it was a pure business decision not a compassionate one to Snyder, however as a whole it does not reflect well on the studio or the product. The least they could have done was stick with what he shot,his vision and release it with perhaps second unit director finishing VFX.NOT completely butcher the film and rush through production and expose their selfish interest with that mustache hack job on Cavill,shoot the scenes in classic reverse order mustache scenes first, and the ones without from Snyder come last to make the appearance he had a shave in film.I digress ,but it's plain to see how stupid they handled everything to the point that Jason Momoa had incomplete tattoos in some scenes and so was wearing fur coats..yeah a guy who can swim in polar waters needs a coat on land where air has hundreds of times less heat conductivity than water.

    It was just an absolute mess and no wonder the movie was so poorly received in relation to the predecessors

  4. #799
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    That's the point, it was a pure business decision not a compassionate one to Snyder, however as a whole it does not reflect well on the studio or the product. The least they could have done was stick with what he shot,his vision and release it with perhaps second unit director finishing VFX.NOT completely butcher the film and rush through production and expose their selfish interest with that mustache hack job on Cavill,shoot the scenes in classic reverse order mustache scenes first, and the ones without from Snyder come last to make the appearance he had a shave in film.I digress ,but it's plain to see how stupid they handled everything to the point that Jason Momoa had incomplete tattoos in some scenes and so was wearing fur coats..yeah a guy who can swim in polar waters needs a coat on land where air has hundreds of times less heat conductivity than water.

    It was just an absolute mess and no wonder the movie was so poorly received in relation to the predecessors
    You mean the predecessors that were also poorly received?

  5. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    You mean the predecessors that were also poorly received?
    I look at it very very simply ,you have news media personnel ,you have political commentators and you have the common man- although the former categories have more exposure at the end of the day all their opinions whether 'informed' or ' gut feelings' are absolutely equal on election Day.The vote of a school janitor is absolutely equal to a political analyst

    To claim professional movie critics are justified in the criticism more than you or I is tenuously based on them being paid for their criticism while they watch the movie for free(most cases),while you and I pay to see a film and critique(read give opinion on) it for free.

    So look at the facts

    IMDB 6.4/ 10 rating
    Rotten Tomatoes 62%
    Metacritic 6.9 / 10

    Those are the facts whether that is poor reception ,you decide ,but maths leans to majority leaning to good reception- 2/3 of viewing audience on BvS (the more critically scathed of both films by 'professional' critics)
    Last edited by Rev9; 07-31-2020 at 01:40 PM.

  6. #801
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I look at it very very simply ,you have news media personnel ,you have political commentators and you have the common man- although the former categories have more exposure at the end of the day all their opinions whether 'informed' or ' gut feelings' are absolutely equal on election Day.The vote of a school janitor is absolutely equal to a political analyst

    To claim professional movie critics are justified in the criticism more than you or I is tenuously based on them being paid for their criticism while they watch the movie for free(most cases),while you and I pay to see a film and critique(read give opinion on) it for free.

    So look at the facts

    IMDB 6.4/ 10 rating
    Rotten Tomatoes 62%
    Metacritic 6.9 / 10

    Those are the facts whether that is poor reception ,you decide ,but maths leans to majority leaning to good reception- 2/3 of viewing audience on BvS (the more critically scathed of both films by 'professional' critics)
    I wasn't even talking about the critics, I was referring to the "common man" not turning up to see BvS the second weekend. Which is the most damning indication that JL wasn't going to get a billion if Snyder was going to do more of the same, which it sounds like he was going to. Most of the talk surrounding it around here among the casuals was "it sucked, don't waste your time" and "it wasn't THAT bad" at best.

    It made most of its money the first weekend because of the hype, but it didn't have strong legs.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 07-31-2020 at 02:10 PM.

  7. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I wasn't even talking about the critics, I was referring to the "common man" not turning up to see BvS the second weekend. Which is the most damning indication that JL wasn't going to get a billion if Snyder was going to do more of the same, which it sounds like he was going to.
    Those numbers are from general public ,but to your point..
    It could be argued the common man did not turn on second weekend because of trusting the 'professional' critical response instead of seeing the film to make their own opinion,countless numbers took critic opinion for fact. Many have since admitted to just that happening which actually implies those site stats should be higher because some people waited for DVD release to make their opinion and still are at odds with the critics because they admitted to enjoying the film.They cannot be reflected because they don't fall in the window when the data pool crystallises.

    If indeed the 71% drop from first weekend to next was down to hating the film ,those very responders would statistically mean the figure on RT or IMDB for audience scores would be commensurate to about 3/10 or 30% but that is not at all reflected in the stats
    Last edited by Rev9; 07-31-2020 at 02:20 PM.

  8. #803
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Those numbers are from general public ,but to your point..
    It could be argued the common man did not turn on second weekend because of trusting the 'professional' critical response instead of seeing the film to make their own opinion,countless numbers took critic opinion for fact. Many have since admitted to just that happening which actually implies those site stats should be higher because some people waited for DVD release to make their opinion and still are at odds with the critics because they admitted to enjoying the film.They cannot be reflected because they don't fall in the window when the data pool crystallises.

    If indeed the 71% drop from first weekend to next was down to hating the film ,those very responders would statistically mean the figure on RT or IMDB for audience scores would be commensurate to about 3/10 or 30% but that is not at all reflected in the stats
    How many people from the general public actually post ratings on sites like IMDB? I mean the average person who just goes to movies for entertainment and doesn't follow this stuff or give much thought to these things because they have other concerns? They're the ones who did not embrace this.

    What is the number for this "many" that admitted they were turned off by critical ratings and later admitted they enjoyed it? Is it just accounts online? How much do they really account for? Poor word of mouth kills these things faster than critical ratings. You don't get that steep of a drop just from people looking at RT. It having such a huge opening despite dropping so steeply is more of an indication that the audiences who turned up opening weekend didn't like what they saw and spread the word. Expecting JL to ever reach a billion with Snyder in charge and being very visibly a continuation of BvS is a pipe dream. It wasn't sustainable and the execs were right not to expect great results at that time, even if the time for the best action (scrapping it entirely) already came and went.

  9. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    How many people from the general public actually post ratings on sites like IMDB? I mean the average person who just goes to movies for entertainment and doesn't follow this stuff or give much thought to these things because they have other concerns? They're the ones who did not embrace this.

    What is the number for this "many" that admitted they were turned off by critical ratings and later admitted they enjoyed it? Is it just accounts online? How much do they really account for? Poor word of mouth kills these things faster than critical ratings. You don't get that steep of a drop just from people looking at RT. It having such a huge opening despite dropping so steeply is more of an indication that the audiences who turned up opening weekend didn't like what they saw and spread the word. Expecting JL to ever reach a billion with Snyder in charge and being very visibly a continuation of BvS is a pipe dream. It wasn't sustainable and the execs were right not to expect great results at that time, even if the time for the best action (scrapping it entirely) already came and went.
    RT's audience score is a poor metric, it's been weaponised by bad actors to harm movies like Captain Marvel.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...trolls/584032/

    Captain Marvel hasn’t hit theaters, yet it garnered a dismal audience score of 54 percent—far below the totals for other recent Marvel movies. The poor grade is the result of “review bombing,” a practice that’s also widespread in the highly charged world of video gaming. Different groups organize campaigns to drag down the audience rating for a film (or a game) in response to a particular controversy, sometimes for sexist or racist reasons. Many culture writers noted that Captain Marvel, in particular, was likely being targeted for featuring a female hero. It’s become common to see online backlashes to female-led blockbusters—most notoriously with the 2016 iteration of Ghostbusters, but also with films such as Ocean’s 8 and even projects that never exited development. In the case of Captain Marvel, many online commenters seemed upset by Larson’s forthright remarks in interviews about how she hopes to increase diversity in the blockbuster world.

    Review-bombing campaigns, which are run by a small (if loud) sliver of online fandom, don’t factor much into the larger cultural conversation around a movie. These efforts don’t even always affect a film’s box-office performance. In 2017, Star Wars: The Last Jedi was pilloried by unhappy viewers who drove the movie’s Rotten Tomatoes audience score to 44 percent; it was still the highest-grossing film of the year by more than $100 million. Certainly, there was legitimate debate among fans involving The Last Jedi’s characters and story lines. But the audience score was often cited in news articles as evidence of the film’s massive unpopularity—despite the fact that the metric is easily manipulated and not necessarily reflective of how most viewers felt about a movie.

  10. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    How many people from the general public actually post ratings on sites like IMDB? I mean the average person who just goes to movies for entertainment and doesn't follow this stuff or give much thought to these things because they have other concerns? They're the ones who did not embrace this.

    What is the number for this "many" that admitted they were turned off by critical ratings and later admitted they enjoyed it? Is it just accounts online? How much do they really account for? Poor word of mouth kills these things faster than critical ratings. You don't get that steep of a drop just from people looking at RT. It having such a huge opening despite dropping so steeply is more of an indication that the audiences who turned up opening weekend didn't like what they saw and spread the word. Expecting JL to ever reach a billion with Snyder in charge and being very visibly a continuation of BvS is a pipe dream. It wasn't sustainable and the execs were right not to expect great results at that time, even if the time for the best action (scrapping it entirely) already came and went.
    True. Rotten Tomatoes and all of the others put together represent such a fraction of one percent of movie-goers as to be zero for all practical purposes.

    These arguments are all anecdotal so I'll throw in my anecdotal argument. Working retail, I talked to people when the JL movie came out on DVD/ Bluray. As one guy put it, most people he knew said they were done with it after MoS and B v S but he decided to give it one more chance since that was only two strikes so far. He said he was pleasantly surprised by JL. It wasn't great but far more enjoyable than the last two. But he couldn't convince most people he knew to see it as they didn't want to waste more money on something they were not going to enjoy. Then he said "These people have no idea what the audience wants" as if everyone would know what he meant [or at least that I would] and then left.

    But I do think that what killed JL was a combination of being a bad movie in itself and being the third in a series that is not what a lot of people wanted. It was probably closer to what a lot of people wanted than what it would have been without Whedon. Some might say that's a sad commentary on audiences but I think it's true.
    This is what courage looks like.

  11. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    How many people from the general public actually post ratings on sites like IMDB? I mean the average person who just goes to movies for entertainment and doesn't follow this stuff or give much thought to these things because they have other concerns? They're the ones who did not embrace this.

    What is the number for this "many" that admitted they were turned off by critical ratings and later admitted they enjoyed it? Is it just accounts online? How much do they really account for? Poor word of mouth kills these things faster than critical ratings. You don't get that steep of a drop just from people looking at RT. It having such a huge opening despite dropping so steeply is more of an indication that the audiences who turned up opening weekend didn't like what they saw and spread the word. Expecting JL to ever reach a billion with Snyder in charge and being very visibly a continuation of BvS is a pipe dream. It wasn't sustainable and the execs were right not to expect great results at that time, even if the time for the best action (scrapping it entirely) already came and went.
    That is why I specifically gave you the political example to begin with.Does it mean every one elected into office is voted by every single legally eligible voter? Ofcourse not, some people do not choose to vote. That is like assuming BvS was seen by everyone who watches movies..Some people will not go for the film because it is not their genre of liking.I did not say IMDB reflected all movie goers but it can reflect a big enough sample size for extrapolation. Because Avengers that made 1.5 billion could be argued was seen by more people due to good word of mouth and critical reception it has a score of 8/10.

    In this case can IMDB be trusted to be a fair representation of a movie audience ofcourse it can.It is not giving Avengers a rating of 5 out of 10. Look we live in an age of social media and internet savvy people ready to give commentary and opinion on anything,so I would not dismiss rating sites out of hand.To turn around and say for example that now IMDB scores are representative of 5% or less of movie going audience is disingenuous.While the figure could be less than 1% of a worldwide audience it is unlikely to be a drop in the ocean of the American audience. Besides social commentary is not limited to rating sites like IMDB ,it is just that they are deemed resourceful pools for baseline metrics the pulse of popular opinion. One could mathematically compute how many people saw the movie in cinemas but I just don't have that data. Yet still you would find IMDB pretty representative of people across the board
    Last edited by Rev9; 07-31-2020 at 10:43 PM.

  12. #807
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    Studio executive: "This movie set a record for worst second week drop."

    Marketing executive: "It got a 77 on Rotten Tomatoes."

    Studio executive: "Oh. Well in that case, let's make a sequel. We need to show our shareholders that we mean business."

  13. #808
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    Well based on the fact that we are getting ZSJL because of fans the marketing executive is not wrong. It is still a monetary calculus but it is based on actual fan demand. A demand that flies in the face of 'professional' critics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Well based on the fact that we are getting ZSJL because of fans the marketing executive is not wrong. It is still a monetary calculus but it is based on actual fan demand. A demand that flies in the face of 'professional' critics
    Professional critics didn't sink Snyder, Snyder sunk Snyder. He needed results at the box office to please his bosses at WB and failed. Michael Bay made several terrible Transformers movies, the reason he did was because he pleased his bosses, the professional critics hated those movies. Didn't stop anything.

  15. #810
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Social media reactions and word of mouth have more influence than things like Rotten Tomatoes. Part of the reason the studios promote their films at places such as Comic-con is to generate buzz with the existing fanbase and hope that translates over to general audiences via word of mouth or social media.

    Anyone who is truly honest knows the reactions to Snyder's films were mixed at best. Snyder's films were not wide spread crowd pleasers. Some people loved them and some people hated them.

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