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  1. #811
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Snyder's movies have always been controversial and mixed at best, since his Dawn of the Dead reboot. I don't know why it's so hard to accept that some people just don't like his movies. This isn't about agendas or whatever. The guy has and always will be a niche director.

    The problem is with his fans that want everyone to like him and view him as this slighted genius. Not everyone will think that way. I don't even think Snyder wants everyone to like him.

  2. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Professional critics didn't sink Snyder, Snyder sunk Snyder. He needed results at the box office to please his bosses at WB and failed. Michael Bay made several terrible Transformers movies, the reason he did was because he pleased his bosses, the professional critics hated those movies. Didn't stop anything.
    How is making 200m more than Superman Returns with your first superman movie and making just 150m short of WB's highest grossing superhero films in DK and DKR sinking yourself? A movie that makes almost 900m in the sequel to MoS is not a failure.This idea that WB wanted to emulate Marvel's success is not false BUT the presumption they wanted to get there by the same tone,narrative and style is wrong.When you hire a director you know their portfolio and repertoire.Having seen 300 and Watchmen there is absolutely no way they were trying to have the same direction as Marvel,sure maybe commercially but it is plain to see they were willing to take a darker route.

    Transformers movies are some of the most forgettable blockbusters out there.I've never seen anyone have serious discourse about them.There's a reason MoS and BvS are still being talked about.In fact to Snyder's credit he has primed a new audience to take characters and their journeys seriously.Regressing back to one dimensional and campy portrayals will not be as easy as some presume

  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Snyder's movies have always been controversial and mixed at best, since his Dawn of the Dead reboot. I don't know why it's so hard to accept that some people just don't like his movies. This isn't about agendas or whatever. The guy has and always will be a niche director.

    The problem is with his fans that want everyone to like him and view him as this slighted genius. Not everyone will think that way. I don't even think Snyder wants everyone to like him.
    Good lord. All of this. Allllll of it.

    I think he is great visually. Storywise, he is suspect AF. I am not a fan of his as a director. And that's OK. People love the guy. That's OK too. Only thing is I have run into more people who don't think like that and think just because you don't think Snyder is the greatest director of all times that you are wrong and something is wrong with you.

  4. #814
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    The thing about Snyder's Superman films is that I was bored and always felt like I was watching them out of obligation. I mean why would I care what happens to the characters when they have such a fatalistic attitude that they don't particularly seem to care what happens to them either? I like 300 quite uniquely out of his oevre, not just because it has that Commando/Flash Gordon "so overly serious it becomes camp AF" quality, but because the characters are enjoying the bonkersness of the set-up so much that you do too. His Spartans are like the most cheerful suicide bombers in history, turning asymmetrical warfare against a superpower into slow-mo pop art.

  5. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Well based on the fact that we are getting ZSJL because of fans the marketing executive is not wrong. It is still a monetary calculus but it is based on actual fan demand. A demand that flies in the face of 'professional' critics
    Realistically the only reason that fan demand exists is because Whedon came and finished the movie, allowing some fans to raise the Snyder cut up to a mythic thing that they could believe was better than it might otherwise have been

  6. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    How is making 200m more than Superman Returns with your first superman movie and making just 150m short of WB's highest grossing superhero films in DK and DKR sinking yourself? A movie that makes almost 900m in the sequel to MoS is not a failure.This idea that WB wanted to emulate Marvel's success is not false BUT the presumption they wanted to get there by the same tone,narrative and style is wrong.When you hire a director you know their portfolio and repertoire.Having seen 300 and Watchmen there is absolutely no way they were trying to have the same direction as Marvel,sure maybe commercially but it is plain to see they were willing to take a darker route.

    Transformers movies are some of the most forgettable blockbusters out there.I've never seen anyone have serious discourse about them.There's a reason MoS and BvS are still being talked about.In fact to Snyder's credit he has primed a new audience to take characters and their journeys seriously.Regressing back to one dimensional and campy portrayals will not be as easy as some presume
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...more%20rows%20

    Some of it is grading on a curve. The ten highest grossing superhero movies are all Marvel except for Incredibles 2 and Aquaman which notably adapted a MCU style of being more comedic.

    Objectively. the DCEU is doing fine. It's making a fortune. It's just that the MCU is making even more of a fortune. If the MCU had never existed, everyone would be talking about the phenomenal success of MoS and B v S. Well, B v S anyway. MoS and JL are both around the mid thirties of superhero movies.

    The list is flawed in that it clearly is not adjusted for inflation. Superman the Movie doesn't even make the top 50 despite being a phenomenal success in it's time.

    I'm not sure what you mean by one dimensional and campy portrayals. If you mean the fun of the 1960s Batman, sadly, no, we will never get back to that except in reruns- or Legends of Tomorrow. If you mean to imply that the MCU is nothing but camp and one dimensional, I disagree. But if you think they are, their placement in the top ten and above most DCEU movies well after B v S was released says otherwise.
    This is what courage looks like.

  7. #817
    Courage looks like this Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Snyder's movies have always been controversial and mixed at best, since his Dawn of the Dead reboot. I don't know why it's so hard to accept that some people just don't like his movies. This isn't about agendas or whatever. The guy has and always will be a niche director.

    The problem is with his fans that want everyone to like him and view him as this slighted genius. Not everyone will think that way. I don't even think Snyder wants everyone to like him.
    I think the issue is that when you do a Superman movie or the first live action meeting of Superman and Batman, the studios expect far more than a niche movie that some people like and some people don't. Granted, you'll never please everybody. But I suspect they thought the "likes" would overwhelm the "don't likes".

    In a "small movie" [and they are not small movies, just ones that are more niche in terms of public interest], the fact that it won't be almost universally loved is irrelevant. In an overwhelmingly expensive blockbuster, it is.
    This is what courage looks like.

  8. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    How is making 200m more than Superman Returns with your first superman movie and making just 150m short of WB's highest grossing superhero films in DK and DKR sinking yourself? A movie that makes almost 900m in the sequel to MoS is not a failure.This idea that WB wanted to emulate Marvel's success is not false BUT the presumption they wanted to get there by the same tone,narrative and style is wrong.When you hire a director you know their portfolio and repertoire.Having seen 300 and Watchmen there is absolutely no way they were trying to have the same direction as Marvel,sure maybe commercially but it is plain to see they were willing to take a darker route.

    Transformers movies are some of the most forgettable blockbusters out there.I've never seen anyone have serious discourse about them.There's a reason MoS and BvS are still being talked about.In fact to Snyder's credit he has primed a new audience to take characters and their journeys seriously.Regressing back to one dimensional and campy portrayals will not be as easy as some presume
    It's because the studio always had higher expectations for those films, and they always ended up falling short in one way or another- at least in there minds. I enjoyed Man of Steel, but I don't think it did the kind of business that WB was expecting it to do. So they panicked and decided to throw Batman in the next one, and we got Batman v Superman- which, again, fell short of their projections.

    What always bothered me is that WB had to see the reactions those two movies got, they had to see problems that they could have directed- either by sitting down with Snyder and giving him mandates, or bringing on a brand new director for Justice League from the start. Instead they continued with Snyder, and then were somehow surprised at what he was giving them. I know the official reason Snyder stepped down was because of his daughter's suicide, and maybe that was a part of it, but I've always felt that WB panicked when they saw the dallies and finally decided to drop Snyder and replace him with someone else. And by doing that, they shot themselves in the foot. They ended up getting one movie that was pretty much universally panned, and starting a movement to get the original version of that movie released that they ignored for years.

  9. #819
    Courage looks like this Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    It's because the studio always had higher expectations for those films, and they always ended up falling short in one way or another- at least in there minds. I enjoyed Man of Steel, but I don't think it did the kind of business that WB was expecting it to do. So they panicked and decided to throw Batman in the next one, and we got Batman v Superman- which, again, fell short of their projections.

    What always bothered me is that WB had to see the reactions those two movies got, they had to see problems that they could have directed- either by sitting down with Snyder and giving him mandates, or bringing on a brand new director for Justice League from the start. Instead they continued with Snyder, and then were somehow surprised at what he was giving them. I know the official reason Snyder stepped down was because of his daughter's suicide, and maybe that was a part of it, but I've always felt that WB panicked when they saw the dallies and finally decided to drop Snyder and replace him with someone else. And by doing that, they shot themselves in the foot. They ended up getting one movie that was pretty much universally panned, and starting a movement to get the original version of that movie released that they ignored for years.
    We will never know if they would have replaced Snyder had his daughter not died. Instead, they used it as an excuse when they saw the test audience reactions to JL instead of simply delaying the release and insisting he change some things. We will also never know for sure if the pandemic and the closing of theaters led to doing all sorts of stuff to make some extra money though it likely did help lead to us getting Snyder's version of JL.
    This is what courage looks like.

  10. #820
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Snyder's movies have always been controversial and mixed at best, since his Dawn of the Dead reboot. I don't know why it's so hard to accept that some people just don't like his movies. This isn't about agendas or whatever. The guy has and always will be a niche director.

    The problem is with his fans that want everyone to like him and view him as this slighted genius. Not everyone will think that way. I don't even think Snyder wants everyone to like him.

    This. I think he said he didn't care if his movies were divisive..

    I think the Snyder cut of JL will probably be divisive too, and those who love his movies will probably also love his JL. Those who never loved BvS probably won't be big fans of JL. We like what we like and his fans have to learn to live with that. I liked MOS a lot, but it has some things I don't.

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  12. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    This. I think he said he didn't care if his movies were divisive..

    I think the Snyder cut of JL will probably be divisive too, and those who love his movies will probably also love his JL. Those who never loved BvS probably won't be big fans of JL. We like what we like and his fans have to learn to live with that. I liked MOS a lot, but it has some things I don't.
    He definitely cares, if anything he cares too much.

  13. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    It's because the studio always had higher expectations for those films, and they always ended up falling short in one way or another- at least in there minds. I enjoyed Man of Steel, but I don't think it did the kind of business that WB was expecting it to do. So they panicked and decided to throw Batman in the next one, and we got Batman v Superman- which, again, fell short of their projections.

    What always bothered me is that WB had to see the reactions those two movies got, they had to see problems that they could have directed- either by sitting down with Snyder and giving him mandates, or bringing on a brand new director for Justice League from the start. Instead they continued with Snyder, and then were somehow surprised at what he was giving them. I know the official reason Snyder stepped down was because of his daughter's suicide, and maybe that was a part of it, but I've always felt that WB panicked when they saw the dallies and finally decided to drop Snyder and replace him with someone else. And by doing that, they shot themselves in the foot. They ended up getting one movie that was pretty much universally panned, and starting a movement to get the original version of that movie released that they ignored for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    It's because the studio always had higher expectations for those films, and they always ended up falling short in one way or another- at least in there minds. I enjoyed Man of Steel, but I don't think it did the kind of business that WB was expecting it to do. So they panicked and decided to throw Batman in the next one, and we got Batman v Superman- which, again, fell short of their projections.

    What always bothered me is that WB had to see the reactions those two movies got, they had to see problems that they could have directed- either by sitting down with Snyder and giving him mandates, or bringing on a brand new director for Justice League from the start. Instead they continued with Snyder, and then were somehow surprised at what he was giving them. I know the official reason Snyder stepped down was because of his daughter's suicide, and maybe that was a part of it, but I've always felt that WB panicked when they saw the dallies and finally decided to drop Snyder and replace him with someone else. And by doing that, they shot themselves in the foot. They ended up getting one movie that was pretty much universally panned, and starting a movement to get the original version of that movie released that they ignored for years.
    If you mean they had higher expectations based on name alone, that is not really an expectation but a wish.The claim/deduction that they hoped for over a billion on MoS, because just a year prior Avengers made that and some is misleading.Avengers was what like the 6th film after about 5 set up films while MoS was a reimagining after Returns was ok at the box office.I say OK because SR Box office numbers were where most superhero movies landed at the time perhaps except Spiderman. If they expected MoS to make Dark Knight numbers then I don't know why they thought a first movie would beat a sequel movie of a different(albeit equally popular)DC character.Mind you perhaps few share my opinion and not to take nothing away from a great film that it was-I stand by my belief that TDK was not 'helped' but 'propelled' is a better word by the news of Heath Ledger's untimely death.When popular stars pass movies they worked on get a huge bump ,as fans are eager to see what is or could be their last work.The same happened to Furious 7 with Paul Walker.I digress ,but BvS was not a failure by any means, to say WB wanted more money ,sure they did,every studio wants BO success but they were on record to say they were happy with the numbers and to assume somehow the second film in your universe will get you 1.5 billion that a team movie at Marvel gets is absurd at least to me.They are not fans their cold calculus gave them realistic projections which I think they met.I know fans are more vehement with bragging rights and numbers but for me personally story wise, drama wise BvS is right up there with the best superhero films WB has made.
    Last edited by Rev9; 08-04-2020 at 07:15 AM.

  14. #824
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I think the issue is that when you do a Superman movie or the first live action meeting of Superman and Batman, the studios expect far more than a niche movie that some people like and some people don't. Granted, you'll never please everybody. But I suspect they thought the "likes" would overwhelm the "don't likes".

    In a "small movie" [and they are not small movies, just ones that are more niche in terms of public interest], the fact that it won't be almost universally loved is irrelevant. In an overwhelmingly expensive blockbuster, it is.
    Well it's almost like getting a director that fits a very particular niche to launch a Superman blockbuster franchise which was then turned into a cinematic universe based on DC comics was in fact a very bad idea for WB. /sarcasm

    It's almost like WB thought they could do the same thing again that they did with Nolan and Batman. I just don't know who told them Snyder was the right choice for that.

  15. #825
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Well it's almost like getting a director that fits a very particular niche to launch a Superman blockbuster franchise which was then turned into a cinematic universe based on DC comics was in fact a very bad idea for WB. /sarcasm

    It's almost like WB thought they could do the same thing again that they did with Nolan and Batman. I just don't know who told them Snyder was the right choice for that.
    I think (but am not certain) he was the only one who volunteered for Superman at the time, and they needed to crank a movie out to keep the rights to the IP.

    It's the perfect storm of shittiness. Even so, MOS isn't as bad as what came after and had some good points. But with this whole thing, it's enough to make you yearn for an alternate timeline where Snyder never touched the character

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