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  1. #1291
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Superman should easily trounce Steppenwolf, so that part was accurate. The problem is, so should Wonder Woman. I don't believe Steppenwolf has ever been considered a major hitter in the Fourth World saga. He was only present in the backstory issues in Kirby's original run. A plot based around him leading an invasion with some Parademons is unimpressive for a JL story, so somebody or everybody is gonna get nerfed.

    A beefed up Steppenwolf should still be solod by Wonder Woman, while Superman fights someone like Kalibak and Aquaman deals with the Deep Six, etc. A full scale invasion from Apokolips justifies League involvement. Steppenwolf by himself with some Parademons is something Superman can deal with in an afternoon,.

  2. #1292
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    A Justice League movie should have a story that justifies all their involvement. Superman is physically more powerful than the JL but that's where an intelligent plot comes in.

    There's no point in assembling a "team" when Superman can simply do everything himself, that just means the other league members should simply get Supes number on speed dial.

    If the film makers couldn't come up with something then they should have skimmed something from the comics. There are hundreds of JL stories that has the entire team play critical roles, it just takes a calm mind and some creativity.
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  3. #1293
    Courage looks like this Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    I appreciate Superman fans haven't had much luck in recent years with depictions of him. His movies have been pretty lukewarm, and in video game land you got crap like Injustice and the upcoming Suicide Squad. So understand how/why they'd be happy to see him put on a pedestal in Justice League.

    I just wish it didn't come at the expense of Wonder Woman and the other heroes.

    For me, Superman crushing the entire League single-handed, demolishing Steppenwolf with ease, "Is this guy still bothering you?"...it made me want to punch the screen. I legit don't remember the last time a movie made me that angry.
    Why in the hell would I ever want to see a movie where Wonder Woman is rendered completely superfluous? Especially hot on the heels of her own film.

    Superman can be the best and strongest and all that without pissing all over Diana and the other heroes. It's possible I'm sure.

    And I don't mean saying "he holds back," which only makes it worse in my opinion. Superman "always holding back" is right there with Batman's "prep time" as absolute wank.

    If you can't figure out a way for Superman to exist alongside other heroes--some of whom are supposed to be the best and strongest in their own way--without nerfing him to hell or stomping all over them, then just don't do a shared universe. And this should apply for the comics, too.

    The fact is they made a Justice League movie where the JUSTICE LEAGUE is utterly useless. And regardless of tone, and no matter how much or how little of Snyder's footage Whedon used, that core premise is the foundation of the story. It's baked into the film's DNA no matter the cut.

    And based on what I've heard about Synder's vision...it's only going to be worse.
    It seems pretty clear the through-line of his movies is that Superman is essentially objectivist Jesus and everyone else exists in relation to that. Which is a pretty poor interpretation of Superman and a slap in the face to the other heroes.
    Great post and I think the majority of us agree. It was great to see someone again that feels like Superman but the one thing is we wish they had found a way to do that without disrespecting Wonder Woman.
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  4. #1294
    Courage looks like this Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's really only at the expense of Wonder Woman, which is really bad enough. But it didn't do any long term damage to her brand either. Her's is still stronger than his as far as movies go.

    It doesn't negatively impact any of the others though. Barry is a rookie who was ill prepared for dealing with a Kryptonian, and I'm sorry he always dwarfs the others present. Aside from Diana, that is exactly how a fight between a pissed off Superman and that specific JL lineup with no experience working with each other would go down. The notion that it wouldn't (again, aside from Wonder Woman) is the wank, not the other way around.

    Had MM, a GL and Captain Marvel been on that team along with a fairly treated Wonder Woman and a more experienced Barry? We're looking at a different scenario. But no way are Cyborg or Batman ever in his league, and the amount of instances where Aquaman can hold his own against him are dwarfed by the instances of him not being on that tier along with popular perception.
    True. I don't think the vast majority of the movie audience cares about this "Who would beat who in a fight?" stuff. They don't see WW as nerfed because she can't beat Superman in this version. Most of them are probably thinking, "Well, they set it up for her to hit the winning homerun even if Superman set it up for her".

    It certainly has not damaged her status as the best character in the DCEU or maybe sharing that status now with Aquaman and maybe Captain Marvel. Who would have thought the DC Trinity would become Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Captain Marvel and that she would be the one holdover from the original DC Trinity.
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  5. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    A Justice League movie should have a story that justifies all their involvement. Superman is physically more powerful than the JL but that's where an intelligent plot comes in.
    Absolutely true. Cyborg has capabilities that Superman does not. So does Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash (when Flash and Superman are written properly) and Aquaman.

    A good JL script will find a way for each hero to showcase why the day couldn't be won without the whole team.

  6. #1296
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyHorror View Post
    Absolutely true. Cyborg has capabilities that Superman does not. So does Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash (when Flash and Superman are written properly) and Aquaman.

    A good JL script will find a way for each hero to showcase why the day couldn't be won without the whole team.
    Some of them have a few abilities that Superman does not... but in a straight up brawl where you win by punching out the bad guys, Superman makes this team mostly redudent. Once the punching starts, their biggest value was holding off the bad guys while Superman saves as many people as he can.

    You really need a Green Lantern or a Martian Manhunter (who I honestly believe could take Superman 8 out of 10 fights if written properly) to show up Superman in that sort of situation. His level of speed and strength makes him ridiclously uber in most realistically written situations. That's how Superman should look in MOST fights unless he's fighting someone as fast and as strong as him. The instances where he's not USUALLY involve him conveniently forgetting he has super speed.

  7. #1297
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Some of them have a few abilities that Superman does not... but in a straight up brawl where you win by punching out the bad guys, Superman makes this team mostly redudent.
    Precisely the reason you need to write an intelligent script that doesn't boil down to punching.

    I mean, 2006 Fantastic Four had its problems, but at least each team member had a purpose and lended their abilities to the resolution of the conflict, instead of just having Thing clobber Doom.
    Last edited by RockyHorror; 09-13-2020 at 05:52 PM.

  8. #1298
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I don't think it helps that within his own franchise, Superman is soloing threats that could be considered League level threats and are often used that way. Brainiac being the big one, but also potentially the Phantom Zone criminals.

  9. #1299
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't think it helps that within his own franchise, Superman is soloing threats that could be considered League level threats and are often used that way. Brainiac being the big one, but also potentially the Phantom Zone criminals.
    This why Justice League stories should be against teams of villains instead of just one guy. Put them against the Hyperclan, the injustice league, or maybe more than one fourth world character. How is a single b-tier new god a sufficient threat to Superman let alone the entire Justice League?

  10. #1300
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Some of them have a few abilities that Superman does not... but in a straight up brawl where you win by punching out the bad guys, Superman makes this team mostly redudent. Once the punching starts, their biggest value was holding off the bad guys while Superman saves as many people as he can.

    You really need a Green Lantern or a Martian Manhunter (who I honestly believe could take Superman 8 out of 10 fights if written properly) to show up Superman in that sort of situation. His level of speed and strength makes him ridiclously uber in most realistically written situations. That's how Superman should look in MOST fights unless he's fighting someone as fast and as strong as him. The instances where he's not USUALLY involve him conveniently forgetting he has super speed.
    They have a Wonder Woman, whose been around since World War 1, and a half way competent League - that by itself should present a big problem for Superman. What Wonder Woman lacks, given that she's in his ballpark when J'onn isn't around, shouldn't be a complete disaster they're not helpless without Superman there. Aside from DCEU Flash, who is useless.


  11. #1301
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They have a Wonder Woman, whose been around since World War 1, and a half way competent League - that by itself should present a big problem for Superman. What Wonder Woman lacks, given that she's in his ballpark when J'onn isn't around, shouldn't be a complete disaster they're not helpless without Superman there. Aside from DCEU Flash, who is useless.

    I'm not saying they're helpless without him... I'm saying they're redundent with him. There's a difference.

  12. #1302

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    I'm glad that Wonder Woman vs. Superman fight was posted above because it highlights a pet peeve of mine.

    On several occasions in the comics, people have disabled Superman or Supergirl by making a loud noise in their ears -- sometimes tricking them into using their super-hearing first.

    Black Canary did it to Supergirl in Superman Family 171, and she did it to Clark Kent in an episode of Smallville.

    My pet peeve is this: Superman and Supergirl are invulnerable. It does not MATTER how loud the sound is -- it should not hurt them even if they used their super-hearing to amplify the sound a million times over.

    Yes, they would hear it a million times louder, but it shouldn't hurt them -- certainly not to the point of disabling them as has been shown.

    If being inside an atomic explosion wouldn't hurt them (including the sound from said explosion not hurting their ears), then a really loud clanging or Canary Cry shouldn't do it, either.

    Yes, they hear it louder, but the loudness wouldn't cause them pain. That's the invulnerable part of being invulnerable.
    Last edited by Comic-Reader Lad; 09-13-2020 at 07:35 PM.

  13. #1303
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    I'm glad that Wonder Woman vs. Superman fight was posted above because it highlights a pet peeve of mine.

    On several occasions in the comics, people have disabled Superman or Supergirl by making a loud noise in their ears -- sometimes tricking them into using their super-hearing first.

    Black Canary did it to Supergirl in Superman Family 171, and she did it to Clark Kent in an episode of Smallville.

    My pet peeve is this: Superman and Supergirl are invulnerable. It does not MATTER how loud the sound is -- it should not hurt them even if they used their super-hearing to amplify the sound a million times over.

    Yes, they would hear it a million times louder, but it shouldn't hurt them -- certainly not to the point of disabling them as has been shown.

    If being inside an atomic explosion wouldn't hurt them (including the sound from said explosion not hurting their ears), then a really loud clanging or Canary Cry shouldn't do it, either.

    Yes, they hear it louder, but the loudness wouldn't cause them pain. That's the invulnerable part of being invulnerable.
    When you make a character as ridiculously powerful as Superman you sometimes have to just make up weaknesses which don't really make sense.

    It's been decades and I'm still not 100% sure why chunks of Supermans own planet can kill him.

  14. #1304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    I'm glad that Wonder Woman vs. Superman fight was posted above because it highlights a pet peeve of mine.

    On several occasions in the comics, people have disabled Superman or Supergirl by making a loud noise in their ears -- sometimes tricking them into using their super-hearing first.

    Black Canary did it to Supergirl in Superman Family 171, and she did it to Clark Kent in an episode of Smallville.

    My pet peeve is this: Superman and Supergirl are invulnerable. It does not MATTER how loud the sound is -- it should not hurt them even if they used their super-hearing to amplify the sound a million times over.

    Yes, they would hear it a million times louder, but it shouldn't hurt them -- certainly not to the point of disabling them as has been shown.

    If being inside an atomic explosion wouldn't hurt them (including the sound from said explosion not hurting their ears), then a really loud clanging or Canary Cry shouldn't do it, either.

    Yes, they hear it louder, but the loudness wouldn't cause them pain. That's the invulnerable part of being invulnerable.
    Even if a loud noise does not hurt them, it should be distracting a lot. And in your example the not being hurt by a nuclear explosion is the problem. In the 80s before the Man of Steel reboot, it was the same. Nothing short of a supernova could even faze him, but Mongul could hit him hard enough to hurt him?
    So if they need to come up with "unrealistic" stuff to make him work, so be it.

  15. #1305
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyHorror View Post
    Precisely the reason you need to write an intelligent script that doesn't boil down to punching.

    I mean, 2006 Fantastic Four had its problems, but at least each team member had a purpose and lended their abilities to the resolution of the conflict, instead of just having Thing clobber Doom.
    Exactly.

    Steppenwolf being the main physical threat of the first movie would have been like Loki being the main physical threat of the first Avengers. Granted he was the main villain but there were a sequence of events in the movie leading up to the climax that required each member of the team.

    Justice League has a rich history with lots of villains that can test the whole team, anyone of them would have been better than what we got.
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