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  1. #346
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    The Problem was not that he killed in this situation, but stuff like jonathan kent protecting Clarks secret in very messed up ways. Dawn of justice became a Satire of mature movies. I am a fan of mature movies but not the ones just trying to be edgy. A Lot of mcu movies handeld mature stuff better than the snyder movies. If even batman gets too dark they did something wrong. Snyder getting Miller wrong for example is not helping in that matter.
    Last edited by lowfyr; 06-22-2020 at 07:55 AM.

  2. #347
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    The Problem was not that he killed in this situation, but stuff like jonathan kent protecting Clarks secret in very messed up ways.

    It was not messed up, it was realistic parenting. many parents will do anything to protect their child.
    awn of justice became a Satire of mature movies. I am a fan of mature movies but not the ones just trying to be edgy. A Lot of mcu movies handeld mature stuff better than the snyder movies. If even batman gets too dark they did something wrong.
    Man of steel was a mature film.

    If even batman gets too dark they did something wrong. Snyder getting Miller wrong for example is not helping in that matter.
    what are batman and superman dark too? you need to watch more movies outside MCU. Snyder hardly did the darkest batman film. he evolved superman movies, that is not dark either.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    It was not messed up, it was realistic parenting. many parents will do anything to protect their child.
    There's more options available to be a good parent then telling a confused boy who rescued a bus load of students from drowning that he shouldn't have done it. This wasn't following up on any detail either. If they had any other conversations about this they weren't shown or mentioned.

    Man of steel was a mature film.
    Mature tone, but it wasn't Nolan's Batman trilogy by any stretch.

    what are batman and superman dark too? you need to watch more movies outside MCU. Snyder hardly did the darkest batman film. he evolved superman movies, that is not dark either.
    They're darker then even the other Batman films where he's a cold blooded killer. Keaton's batman likes blowing people up with bombs and he's not as murderous as Snyder's Batman. None of the other Superman versions are "dark" and he's not a traditionally dark character - that's why their rivalry work. They're opposites. Superman's the optimism to Batman's cynicism. Snyder's Superman completely ignored a truck full of gun toting mercenaries to pick on Batman, that's dark.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    It was not messed up, it was realistic parenting. many parents will do anything to protect their child.


    Man of steel was a mature film.


    what are batman and superman dark too? you need to watch more movies outside MCU. Snyder hardly did the darkest batman film. he evolved superman movies, that is not dark either.
    I have seen more than enough movies outside the mcu thank you very much.

    And if you Think " should have let them drown" is excused because he protecting his son perhaps you should see more movies not in the dcu.

    Batman killing is ohne of the things one has to accept in movies but others got him more right. Snyder Made him look almost as Bad as rohrschach.

    Out of couriosity hatte would be the darkest batman if not snyders? If you say nolans you should watch his batman again
    Last edited by lowfyr; 06-25-2020 at 04:20 AM.

  5. #350
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    There's more options available to be a good parent then telling a confused boy who rescued a bus load of students from drowning that he shouldn't have done it.
    so list the options?

    PA Kent was looking at it the hard way. I rather see my son live. My son not get taking away.

    This wasn't following up on any detail either. If they had any other conversations about this they weren't shown or mentioned.
    There was follow up.

    Lois tracked down the kid as an adult to tell her more about superman who the townies saw more as a myth of fiction.

    Clark also followed it up with Lois about the lengths his father went to protect him even at the cost of his life

    Please stop making up stuff. I understand you don't like the movie but making up stuff the movie did not do or did is downright superficial hating.

    Mature tone, but it wasn't Nolan's Batman trilogy by any stretch.
    it arguably outdid the Nolan trilogy with a mature tone. Nolan himself was hands on about the movie keeping the mature tone of his films. Man of steel is as mature as any comic movie out there. X-Men, Batman, Watchmen. Man of steel belongs in that category.

    They're darker then even the other Batman films where he's a cold blooded killer. Keaton's batman likes blowing people up with bombs and he's not as murderous as Snyder's Batman. None of the other Superman versions are "dark" and he's not a traditionally dark character - that's why their rivalry work. They're opposites. Superman's the optimism to Batman's cynicism. Snyder's Superman completely ignored a truck full of gun toting mercenaries to pick on Batman, that's dark.
    Except the movie ends with Superman's optimism.

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    so list the options?

    PA Kent was looking at it the hard way. I rather see my son live. My son not get taking away.
    How about the family have discussions with each other about how he can use his powers without risking his identity? Researching ideas about how to stay safe and hidden, while contributing to society. Many, many Superman adaptions do this. Even Smallville did this.

    Exactly, he saw everything as zero sum and he was ok stopping a super-hero saving lives as long as Clark was safe, and never bothered looking for other options. Why did Clark refused to do with this as a an adult to reduce people? We don't know. That would have been great to explore on screen.

    There was follow up.

    Lois tracked down the kid as an adult to tell her more about superman who the townies saw more as a myth of fiction.

    Clark also followed it up with Lois about the lengths his father went to protect him even at the cost of his life

    Please stop making up stuff. I understand you don't like the movie but making up stuff the movie did not do or did is downright superficial hating.
    Not what I was talking about, I was referring the discussion he had with Pa Kent about using his powers to save people. I'm not making anything up.

    it arguably outdid the Nolan trilogy with a mature tone. Nolan himself was hands on about the movie keeping the mature tone of his films. Man of steel is as mature as any comic movie out there. X-Men, Batman, Watchmen. Man of steel belongs in that category.
    Nolan's Batman was realism, Man of Steel was edgy. Nolan had input but he wasn't in control - he disagreed with killing Zod and was overruled.

    https://www.indiewire.com/2013/06/ch...-result-96895/

    “In the original version of the script, Zod just got zapped into the Phantom Zone,” Snyder explains on the podcast, “But David, Chris and I had long talks about it, and I said that I really feel like we should kill Zod, and that Superman should kill him. The ‘Why?’ of it for me was that if was truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained… I wanted to create a scenario where Superman, either he’s going to see [Metropolis’ citizens] chopped in half, or he’s gotta do what he’s gotta do.”

    Goyer agreed with Snyder on the idea, but there remained one behind-the-scenes holdout, and not a lightweight one either: producer Christopher Nolan. “[Chris] originally said, ‘There’s no way you can do this.’ After checking in with DC Comics about the change, to which they responded positively, Goyer was spurred forward. “I came up with this idea of heat vision and these people about to die, and I wrote the scene, gave it to Chris, and he said, ‘Okay you’ve convinced me.’ ”
    Tonally, you're correct.

    Except the movie ends with Superman's optimism.
    After he shoots down a satellite so the military won't track him, and all that progress is thrown in the trash with B vs S.

  7. #352

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    Pa Kent telling Superboy he probably should have let a dozen or so kids drown so that HIS OWN identity is kept a secret isn’t superheroics.

    Not sure what it is, but I’d imagine something closer to nihilism.

  8. #353
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    How about the family have discussions with each other about how he can use his powers without risking his identity? Researching ideas about how to stay safe and hidden, while contributing to society. Many, many Superman adaptions do this. Even Smallville did this.

    Exactly, he saw everything as zero sum and he was ok stopping a super-hero saving lives as long as Clark was safe, and never bothered looking for other options. Why did Clark refused to do with this as a an adult to reduce people? We don't know. That would have been great to explore on screen.

    Smallvile was a television show. it's not comparable to a movie. again your argument is superficial.

    PA Kent never wanted Clark to use his powers at all. he was scared no matter what Clark did , the world would never understand and accept him. a very important plot that is very expanded on in the sequel film.


    Not what I was talking about, I was referring the discussion he had with Pa Kent about using his powers to save people. I'm not making anything up.
    PA offered a better alternative.Let Clark have a normal life to an extent.



    After he shoots down a satellite so the military won't track him, and all that progress is thrown in the trash with B vs S.
    He told them he was not going to harm them. Again, making up stuff or not completing the story that was in the film.

  9. #354
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Pa Kent telling Superboy he probably should have let a dozen or so kids drown so that HIS OWN identity is kept a secret isn’t superheroics.

    Not sure what it is, but I’d imagine something closer to nihilism.
    Unless PA Kent knew the world would try to destroy and harm his son.

    This is what makes Man of steel a very good adult superhero movie. it deals with uncomfortable adult flawed thinking that is understandable in certain circumstances.
    PA Kent sees, Clark my Son. , not a superhero that has to just rush and save without thinking.

    If you follow up to that, PA Kent says, he wished things did not have to be that way but they are dealing with things far bigger than anything imagined and that was true.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Smallvile was a television show. it's not comparable to a movie. again your argument is superficial.
    Sure it is, Snyder could done more or simply condensed it to fit the movie. This isn't an impossible ask of a director for a super-hero movie. This is about fully exploring why Clark became a super-hero and the scope of his argument with his father. You argument is to not explore this.

    PA Kent never wanted Clark to use his powers at all. he was scared no matter what Clark did , the world would never understand and accept him. a very important plot that is very expanded on in the sequel film.
    Which they could have done more with and explored in more detail, before and after his death. It's why Clark's jump to being a super-hero is so jarring, were's missing a major part of his transition. There was no clear resolution for this arc with his father, and Clark never argued properly about why he disagreed. How did he eventually disagree? We don't know and Snyder's not showing us why.

    [quote]
    PA offered a better alternative.Let Clark have a normal life to an extent.



    Did you want Clark to not be Superman? That's not the alternative i was talking about. Stop moving the goal posts and ignoring what I'm saying.
    He told them he was not going to harm them. Again, making up stuff or not completing the story that was in the film.
    The story in Man of Steel was filled with holes, like the gap between Clark see Pa die and becoming a pseudo super-hero. Snyder didn't bother telling the other interesting parts of his own film which lead to Clark becoming Superman.

  11. #356
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Sure it is, Snyder could done more or simply condensed it to fit the movie. This isn't an impossible ask of a director for a super-hero movie. This is about fully exploring why Clark became a super-hero and the scope of his argument with his father. You argument is to not explore this.
    Except Clark did decide to rise up to the mantle when his other father gave him another alternative from PA Kent. Arguably what is called the best part of the entire movie.
    Which they could have done more with and explored in more detail, before and after his death. It's why Clark's jump to being a super-hero is so jarring, were's missing a major part of his transition. There was no clear resolution for this arc with his father, and Clark never argued properly about why he disagreed. How did he eventually disagree? We don't know and Snyder's not showing us why.
    A tv show could have explored it more in detail but the movie did well with the space constraint, at that point of the film, Zod was on the rise. You said Clark jumping into the superhero career was jarring, this would be true if the Jor El and the fortress of solitude scene was taking out.

    Jor El gave a fantastic advice and tale of why clark needs to be superman, how did you miss that with Rusell Crowe's brilliant performance and delivery. this are the same people that are defending The Mandarin Ben Kingsley's waste in Iron Man 3. Am I missing something here or what?

    The story in Man of Steel was filled with holes, like the gap between Clark see Pa die and becoming a pseudo super-hero. Snyder didn't bother telling the other interesting parts of his own film which lead to Clark becoming Superman.
    I love how you are working overtime to make sure Jor El and Ma Kent are not in the film setting Clark on the right path to becoming Superman or even Lois, who told Clark, all of it was going to come out soon or later so there was no point in Clark hiding on a farm, pretending he is a nobody.

    As usual all the arguments against Snyder for man of steel was always stone cold, people never saw the film or just rejected it because they could not handle the boldness and risk taking of a superman story that was not as childish or safe as Avengers the year before. At least all of that seems over, Snyder has been vindicated with the Cut not to mention more now have begun to appreciate man of steel as a movie.
    Last edited by Castle; 06-25-2020 at 05:58 AM.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Unless PA Kent knew the world would try to destroy and harm his son.

    This is what makes Man of steel a very good adult superhero movie. it deals with uncomfortable adult flawed thinking that is understandable in certain circumstances.
    PA Kent sees, Clark my Son. , not a superhero that has to just rush and save without thinking.

    If you follow up to that, PA Kent says, he wished things did not have to be that way but they are dealing with things far bigger than anything imagined and that was true.
    "Man of Steel" is also a movie that very much is trying to be realistic about the human race and what would really happen if a person with that kind of power was revealed to exist. It was made at a time when "aliens" from other countries are successfully being demonized into monstrous threats by politicians in order to get votes and create distractions and these are mostly just immigrants who want to be safe. And it works. A lot of people believe it due to whatever inner bigotries and fears they carry. Does anyone really believe that the nation and world is just going to happily accept an alien from another planet who is unstoppable?

    Of course not and Jonathan Kent knows what would happen in the real world. They'd try to take him away, find any means to destroy him or control him. At the very least, any chance for a normal life would be gone. Had Jonathan had five minutes to think about it, he might have said, "No, I'm not saying you should have let them die but this isn't the only time you've done stuff like this and under far less critical circumstances. You're a child and you just can't see the dangers". In a bizarre way, it reminds me of a scene from the Andy Griffith show of all things where Andy is explaining that you can't let a child make his own choices because he'll make the easiest or most emotionally satisfying choice because he can't see the long term effects it will have. But since he doesn't have time to think about it, he just says, "I don't know. Maybe".

    I think that is also significant. He did not say Clark should have let them drown. He said he was not sure and, as you know, he said it because, like almost any parent, his own visceral reaction in the moment was to protect his child. This event brought out all the fears he had carried for years about what he knew- didn't just imagine but knew- would happen if Clark was discovered especially if it happened before Clark was ready and able to protect himself, keeping in mind that the full level and range of his powers was unknown at that time. That you may have survived a tractor accident doesn't mean you're invulnerable and pushing a bus doesn't mean you can't be overpowered by tech and taken away.

    This is not the Chris Reeve Superman. I loved that movie but, even in 1979, it occurred to me that a natural human suspicion would be that Superman caused the accident to Air Force One in order to save it because it was such a silly coincidence that, for the first time in history, something like that just happens to occur on Superman's first night.

    But that's the thing of it. A lot of people come in with the preconception that Superman is supposed to be a feel good fantasy, full stop. But MoS sets out to be a story in a much more realistic world and about what would be most likely to really happen. It isn't perfect. It has flaws. But I suspect the biggest problem is it isn't what a lot of people wanted.
    Last edited by Powerboy; 06-25-2020 at 09:09 AM.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Except Clark did decide to rise up to the mantle when his other father gave him another alternative from PA Kent. Arguably what is called the best part of the entire movie.
    Have you forgotten that Clark was a super-hero before he met Jor-El? This isn't about the mantle, this about deciding to be a super-hero.



    All we get is Lois investigation of him being super-heroic things but we never truly get into his head about why he decided to this against Pa Kent's advice. It's not like he talks to anybody about it with the diner incident or oil rig. This is the missing gap of Clark's journey as a super-hero. Snyder set up Pa Kent as a huge barrier of him choosing to become a super-hero and didn't bother showing us why he chose to do it. One simple scene would be enough. It was a conflicts between ideologies and we didn't get to view the conclusion.

    A tv show could have explored it more in detail but the movie did well with the space constraint, at that point of the film, Zod was on the rise. You said Clark jumping into the superhero career was jarring, this would be true if the Jor El and the fortress of solitude scene was taking out.
    One scene should suffice, this was resolved off-screen long before Jor-El or Zod appeared.

    Jor El gave a fantastic advice and tale of why clark needs to be superman, how did you miss that with Rusell Crowe's brilliant performance and delivery. this are the same people that are defending The Mandarin Ben Kingsley's waste in Iron Man 3. Am I missing something here or what?
    We're not talking about Jor-El, we're talking about Pa Kent. Joe-El wanted him to be a super-hero and supported him in that endeavour, Pa Kent didn't. Pa Kent lost this battle with Joe-El before Jor-El showed up. We just didn't see this play out on screen.

    I love how you are working overtime to make sure Jor El and Ma Kent are not in the film setting Clark on the right path to becoming Superman or even Lois, who told Clark, all of it was going to come out soon or later so there was no point in Clark hiding on a farm, pretending he is a nobody.
    Clark was on the right path before he met Jor-El, he was a super-hero just not Superman. He was half way there. Lois only got on his trail because he as a super-hero before he met her and he wasn't great at overing his tracks. She didn't convince him to be a super-hero, she warned him that he was stupid for leaving clues for people to find. Pa Kent was right in that it was risky for Clark to do those things, where he was wrong is that he didn't teach Clark how to conceal himself for the dangers so when he did do it he was vulnerable. Pa Kent never supported him being a super-hero and was willing to watch the world burn then risk his son. Because he wasn't that smart and incredibly wrong. If Clark had followed his advice Zod would have succeeded.

    This is what happened:

    Pa Kent died
    Clark chose to be a super-hero
    Clark saving people on oil rigs

    (The middle of this is what was skipped in Man of Steel.)

    It wasn't:

    Pa Kent died
    Clark finds Jor-El
    Jor-El convinces him to be a super-hero

    As usual all the arguments against Snyder for man of steel was always stone cold, people never saw the film or just rejected it because they could not handle the boldness and risk taking of a superman story that was not as childish or safe as Avengers the year before. At least all of that seems over, Snyder has been vindicated with the Cut not to mention more now have begun to appreciate man of steel as a movie.
    Clark didn't get cold until B vs S, he was quite warm in Man of Steel. Snyder's Superman films aren't bold, though under a better director Man of Steel could have been satisfying. He was so close to getting it right. The Avengers was far from safe, they just managed to make it look easy. I see you're a fan of Superman TAS, which is the antithesis of Snyder's Superman films - I'm puzzled how you can like them both. The Snyder Cut doesn't vindicate anything. I'm not even against it, I'm curious what a train wreck it'll be. Superman is a childish figure, and he can be modernised but Snyder is far from being the sole authority on making Superman contemporary. He had the blueprint of Superman TAS and threw it in the trash in the name of edginess.

  14. #359
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    Funny thing is there are more than enough versions of Clark helping without Jonathan Kent going with "do not help". Clark protecting himself even results in him creating the Superman Identity as protection against the bad of going public.

    Byrnes Man of Steel or the mentioned TAS are just two examples. But in some minds they would not count because not a "real" movie or they would counter his "argument"

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Unless PA Kent knew the world would try to destroy and harm his son.

    This is what makes Man of steel a very good adult superhero movie. it deals with uncomfortable adult flawed thinking that is understandable in certain circumstances.
    PA Kent sees, Clark my Son. , not a superhero that has to just rush and save without thinking.

    If you follow up to that, PA Kent says, he wished things did not have to be that way but they are dealing with things far bigger than anything imagined and that was true.
    I'd quit saying "Adult Superhero Movie" sounds like you're talking about a porn parody.

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