Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[AndrewCrossett]

You know what I want to see in a Superman movie?
I want to see Superman. I want to see Superman, looking and acting like Superman and doing Superman things in a world were being Superman actually makes sense.

Look... up in the sky...

superman.jpg

[Synestra]

You are reading much into Marvel vs DC. Snyder said what he said from a film and pop culture place.Chris Pine said something worse about Avengers than Snyder when Wonder Woman was out and I doubt he was saying that because he was in a DC movie. Contrary to popular belief, not every criticism is about marvel/DC.

That would be a valid point, IF Snyder had actually made a criticism. He didn't. Instead, he belittled the movies as undeserving on the basis of the characters not being iconic enough. That notion was proven to be haughty foolishness after those very characters exploded into popularity because of those movies. So much so that films about relatively unknown characters performed better than Snyder's films about iconic characters.

Snyder's tone for man of steel, story, his cinematography and his directing is better than what whedon did. whedon made a fun safe comic film for Disney with no artistry. Snyder did the opposite of that.

The better director is subjective, especially considering the response to Man of Steel. The Christian symbolism was clumsy and heavy-handed, and the film was poorly paced.

That is what matters not rotten tomatoes.

Rotten Tomatoes serves to show factual numbers, so that the objective can be separated from the subjective. And I'm talking about fan response too, not just critics. It is fact that Avengers performed better than Man of Steel financially and with audiences. The same is true of Age of Ultron and BvS.

So before we move on to your next uninspired point,

• Marvel's Avengers - User Score: 8.0; metacritic
• Man of Steel - User Score: 7.5; metacritic

I am less subjective, I think a lot of fans are too. You know what is even more popular than rotten tomatoes? the information that it is a garbage website and critics have a blatant slant. Dawn of Justice would have made a billion if the movie was treated fairly.

how much do you think rotten tomatoes will influence fans view of the Cut in 2021? ZERO%

Nonsense, you have dismissed factual information while posting subjective opinion as fact all through this thread. You are no more objective than Snyder himself with regards to his own work. And as you see above, I also posted additional websites in relation to audience reactions.

You don't get to hand wave information because you don't like it while continuing to make fanboy arguments. And as SiegePerilous02 said and you halfheartedly agrees, poor word of mouth is what really contributed to BvS's downfall. Meanwhile all of the Avengers movies still passed $1 billion.

[SiegePerilous02]

Not saying this was not true but one has to wonder? why was there poor word of mouth in the first place, when there are worse movies out there with no true direction. Seriously age of ultron?

One really doesn't have to wonder at all. Word of mouth doesn't come just from reviews, it comes from the average person who goes to see the movie. That's what cut the legs out from under this movie more than anything else. I saw it twice in theaters, both times the atmosphere when the audience walked out wasn't very positive except slightly for Wonder Woman. She wasn't enough to save the movie though.

Your stance on Age of Ultron is subjective. I don't think it's a great movie at all, but evidently people liked it more than BvS. It's sour grapes to drag it into any discussion for why BvS didn't go over well.

Except you don't know of all the audiences thoughts based on RT. that site is even more of a joke when you see fans mock how Star Wars Rise of Skywalker has maintained the same audience score after thousands of fan reviews. RT hardly represent 20% of every person that has seen a movie.

its a far stretch to say man of steel was a full on experimental film, that is more Joker or Logan, but Snyder definitely , with DC was not marketing man of steel like the next Avengers. it was suppose to be a different kind of blockbuster.

MoS was more of a blockbuster than BvS and was marketed as such, and comes away as the better film. I was more talking about BvS. BvS aims to be a darker more experimental film, and unfortunately Snyder's ambitions outweigh his talent. Then they marketed it as an event/blockbuster film, and were surprised when people didn't get what they expected. Yeah people expected it to be darker than MoS and other comic films, but not full on depressing and having to wait almost 2 hours for the titular fight that ends after like 15 minutes in a very stupid and hamfisted way. It doubled down on all the criticisms of MoS.

And the common defense of BvS is that it isn't meant to be a typical blockbuster, which makes the entire decision to pour so much money into it and market it as such so baffling. Another defense is bias against DC and darker movies, but the successes of TDK, Logan, Joker and Wonder Woman (not as dark as the others, but deals with WWI) reveal that as a load of bullshit.

[Rev9]

I'd say most of the basic tenets where there, but not all of them. Much of the characterization, themes, and mood were lacking from Synder's Superman. if you want to call these idiosyncrasies, you can. I see them more as the heart and soul of the character. That's exactly what Synder gave us. He gave us a guy that looks like Superman, but has no soul.


I could care less about enriching the genre. That's just artsy-fartsy talk from pretentiously irritating people that think their artistic desire are more important than they really are.

You know what I want to see in a Superman movie?
I want to see Superman. I want to see Superman, looking and acting like Superman and doing Superman things in a world were being Superman actually makes sense.
Maybe that isn't artistic enough for you, but I honestly don't care.


We're given a Superman that's been raised to think it's okay to let people die as long as you don't inconvenience yourself. I'd say that's right up there with your Blade analogy.

It is sad you interpret that Clark was told to let people die,that is not what was said ,the 'maybe' stood for don't set yourself up to an impossible task, yes you may stop the odd cataclysm-as purported in the newspaper in BvS that he moved tectonic plates but you cannot save every single human life...you are not omnipotent,sure you can try, but don't let the failure of saving every life stop you from trying.Basically he was telling him to grow into the hero he wants to be. As illustrated by his story of saving the farm-it was shorthand for saying -not all your actions and heroics will endear you to everyone... I guess we see things differently even at a cursory level.

[Amadeus Arkham]

lol.

[Synestra]

It is sad you interpret that Clark was told to let people die

[Rev9]

http://www.manofsteelanswers.com/did...die-for-a-dog/

[Synestra]

http://www.manofsteelanswers.com/did...die-for-a-dog/

"Welcome to the ManOfSteelAnswers.com where we endeavor to answer the questions, criticisms, and controversies raised by the 2013 film for Man of Steel fans and those excited by the anticipated DC Cinematic Universe."

You linked a website that doesn't even to bother to hide its bias. The point is, Clark let Jonathan die.

[Jokerz79]

Every Superman movie before MOS, The Raimi Spider-Man, The Fox Fantastic Four films from the 00's, even freaking Ghost Rider, Thomas Jane's Punisher, and Blade Trinity all lighthearted tones having scene of pure comedy before the MCU even rolled an inch of film.

[Jokerz79]

http://www.manofsteelanswers.com/did...die-for-a-dog/

From Dawn of the Dead to Watchmen I never saw Zack Snyder not dumb down the core message of the source material in his films. So I always find this idea there is deeper meaning to his films hard to believe.

[Rev9]

"Welcome to the ManOfSteelAnswers.com where we endeavor to answer the questions, criticisms, and controversies raised by the 2013 film for Man of Steel fans and those excited by the anticipated DC Cinematic Universe."

You linked a website that doesn't even to bother to hide its bias. The point is, Clark let Jonathan die.

If for you personally only those who hated the film can answer the questions,criticisms and controversies raised by the film..then my bad

[Castle]

That would be a valid point, IF Snyder had actually made a criticism. He didn't. Instead, he belittled the movies as undeserving on the basis of the characters not being iconic enough. That notion was proven to be haughty foolishness after those very characters exploded into popularity because of those movies. So much so that films about relatively unknown characters performed better than Snyder's films about iconic characters.The better director is subjective, especially considering the response to Man of Steel. The Christian symbolism was clumsy and heavy-handed, and the film was poorly paced.Rotten Tomatoes serves to show factual numbers, so that the objective can be separated from the subjective. And I'm talking about fan response too, not just critics. It is fact that Avengers performed better than Man of Steel financially and with audiences. The same is true of Age of Ultron and BvS.
.

If Snyder had said the same thing about something you dont care about, you may not see it as belittling. Was Snyder wrong? Superman is the most iconic comic book character ever created. a character that iconic should be getting movies told if other 2nd tier characters were getting movies. if he said the same about Shazam or black adam, I can see it as belittling but not Superman.

Rotten Tomatoes serves to show factual numbers, so that the objective can be separated from the subjective. And I'm talking about fan response too, not just critics. It is fact that Avengers performed better than Man of Steel financially and with audiences. The same is true of Age of Ultron and BvS.

So before we move on to your next uninspired point,

Rotten Tomatoes showed the factual numbers that Joker roughly shares with Thor 2, which is seen as the worst MCU movie, the Joker from an artistic place is leaps and bounds to every MCU movie . MCU cant even climb or push story telling and comic films like Joker did. so why is RT not giving joker a higher score? This is what critical acclaim was about or used to be about. Hmm, I wonder why and when most people stopped caring about critics.

I saw born on the 4th of July yesterday because its USA anniversary/tom cruise's birthday, A very great all patriotic american movie, RT shows many Marvel movies rated better, so do you think every marvel film rated higher is better than the born on the 4th of july? that is what you are telling me. Did you know that Man of Steel was a better received movie than Iron man 3 in 2013? as bad as you think man of steel upset people. Iron Man 3 did worse. why isn't Iron Man 3 rated lower? it should be. the movie is worse objectively.

Marvel's Avengers - User Score: 8.0; metacritic
Man of Steel - User Score: 7.5; metacritic

Metacritic is even less of a thing than RT 20% audience global representation. Did you know Superman Returns has a better metacritic score than Avengers and Winter Solider? two of the ''top MCU movies''?

Superman retruns - 72

Winter Solider=70

Avengers =69

Nonsense, you have dismissed factual information while posting subjective opinion as fact all through this thread. You are no more subjective than Snyder himself with regards to his own work. And as you see above, I also posted additional websites in relation to audience reactions.

Can you show me the actual scientific proof that RT and metacritic is factual information for rating movie art?? more importantly can you show me the endorsement of those who make movies endorsing rt and metacritic for younger movie fans to follow, especially movie fans who want to work in the industry? directors, editors, scorers, visual effects directors and cinematographers? you can start from someone as low as Michael Bay to someone as high as Christopher Nolan. I am sure they have spoken about how much RT and metacritic are the morals of movie art.

You don't get to hand wave information because you don't like it while continuing to make fanboy arguments. And as SiegePerilous02 said and you halfheartedly agrees, poor word of mouth is what really contributed to BvS's downfall. Meanwhile all of the Avengers movies still passed $1 billion

Snyder created a better cinematography and visual treat with man of steel. He told a more realistic story about extraterrestrial villains with man of steel to avengers that is basically an unrealistic comedy movie without any themes. To put it simply, Avengers is Fun. Man of Steel is more. Avengers may have made a billion, man of steel elevated the concept of super powered ET people. rt, metacritic and billion dollars does not change that, that is Disney doing their daily business of making movies of products they own. Snyder wanted to make a true film as a hired director, Whedon just did anything that Disney wanted.

What is strange but true is that if Aliens came knocking at earth's door tomorrow, things will play out more like Man of Steel than Avengers. That is what makes man of steel a better movie to me than avengers, RT and metcritic is as garbage of a weapon as Loki actually been a high threat compared to Zod. Who Superman killed rightfully on the spot, see because that is how terrorism works in the real world, unlike Avengers were Loki is treated as a comedic relief or the lighthearted tone of Avengers. yes, man of steel was dark but guess what? 9/11 made the world a dark place after the attacks.

[Castle]

It is sad you interpret that Clark was told to let people die,that is not what was said ,the 'maybe' stood for don't set yourself up to an impossible task, yes you may stop the odd cataclysm-as purported in the newspaper in BvS that he moved tectonic plates but you cannot save every single human life...you are not omnipotent,sure you can try, but don't let the failure of saving every life stop you from trying.Basically he was telling him to grow into the hero he wants to be. As illustrated by his story of saving the farm-it was shorthand for saying -not all your actions and heroics will endear you to everyone... I guess we see things differently even at a cursory level.

I have said this already, I don't think the... PA Kent is evil narrative actually happened. Any parental adult can see where PA kent was coming from. If it was me, would I want my child to save another child if it cost me my child's life? Ofcourse not.

[Rev9]

I have said this already, I don't think the... PA Kent is evil narrative actually happened. Any parental adult can see where PA kent was coming from. If it was me, would I want my child to save another child if it cost me my child's life? Ofcourse not.

Agree, it's the same lazy criticism that had people misunderstanding the Africa scene in BvS ,some think only because the ultimate cut showed Knaizev burning the bodies that aha Superman didn't kill those people in the desert,yet in the theatrical scene we know ,though Kahina tried to pin the deaths on Superman ,the deaths could have occured either by reprisals from the rebel survivors in the area or government forces and the CIA could simply deny their presence set off those reprisals...she even said as much 'even worse came after' Utter realism somehow made many want their hand held to show that there is absolutely no way Superman could be part of political blowback when even the theatrical version of the film is enough.

[Castle]

Agree, it's the same lazy criticism that had people misunderstanding the Africa scene in BvS ,some think only because the ultimate cut showed Knaizev burning the bodies that aha Superman didn't kill those people in the desert,yet in the theatrical scene we know ,though Kahina tried to pin the deaths on Superman ,the deaths could have occured either by reprisals from the rebel survivors in the area or government forces and the CIA could simply deny their presence set off those reprisals...she even said as much 'even worse came after' Utter realism somehow made many want their hand held to show that there is absolutely no way Superman could be part of political blowback when even the theatrical version of the film is enough.

That is the root of it all. it all began with lazy criticism. Many Man of steel criticism was lazy, the only actual criticism that works is perhaps the action scenes were too much in the end but this is not a criticism that is very bad.

The idea PA Kent is terrible makes little sense, he chose to die than to have his son expose himself. he made the ultimate parental sacrifice. He was a great parent.

I can't remember much about the CIA scene in BvS but I do remember every detail of the Lois and Batman story when Superman was concerned and it was more impressive than critics gave it credit for.

Someone said, Snyder movies don't have deeper meaning but it seems to me that critics chose not to look at any deeper meaning. I mean we have to keep explaining why batman freaked out by the name martha, even though that plot twist has been built up right from the very first scene.