Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[Castle]

I know this is a difficult thing for people who hate Snyder to grasp but not everything he does is a personal attack on you. He made a movie you didn't like.

I could not have said it better. What seems so wrong to me is how he does not find Kevin Feige or Joss Whedon as problematic as Snyder.

[numberthirty]

I know this is a difficult thing for people who hate Snyder to grasp but not everything he does is a personal attack on you. He made a movie you didn't like. You're free to hate it but treating it like a personal insult is the height of comedy. There are super villains who hold less petty grudges than this.

It is always kind of an odd one when the folks who seem intent on accusing Snyder of being that self-absorbed don't seem like they have taken so much as a second to wonder about if they might be they might actually be the self-absorbed ones.

[basbash99]

I've decided i'm gonna boycott Snyder's JL until Fisher either gets specific about his issues with Whedon or walks back his assertions that Joss is "toxic" and "abusive". Sorry but i don't like the idea of trashing someone's reputation with vague accusations, although i know its currently in fashion. Notice that none of his costars have anything specific to add, either.

Yeah, i know WB will surely be crying over my decision.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Everywhere else there is appreciation for Man of Steel and the numbers are growing.

No.

Professional critics? who are they?

Please tell me you don't believe Disney was paying off critics at Rotten Tomatoes.

I don't get that from you across. Also isn't marvel divided because the outcome of their movies were made by different studios with different results? unlike DC that seems more united. Snyder once said he was open to making a Wolverine/marvel movie , As a person who sometimes see myself as a marvel and dc fan, Man of Steel would be an almost perfect X-Men film unlike Joss Whedon's Avengers/Justice league movies.

This shouldn't be a surprise, many DC fans dislike Snyder's vision. The context for a company being united is not whether they're under one roof, this is about management and the audience. Please, keep Snyder away from Marvel. Cavill, Gadot, Fisher, Momoa and Adams are welcome.

In the context, Man of Steel was meant to be dark.

It ended up being edgy.

Man of Steel is in the same league as those movies. You said MCU isn't pushing an agenda but they were. it was MCU that started the light hearted movies that Snyder said he was not doing from the start, maybe ''professional critics'' should have respected his decision.

It's really not. Light hearted super-hero movies have been made in Hollywood long before the MCU was founded. Snyder isn't entitled to anything, he's an artist. This is what happens when art goes public, and this wasn't an indy flick it's big budget licensed movies.

Superman has many dark stories and dark moments. if you are a fan of DC as you say, you would know this by default. Since the death of superman stories in the 90s. nothing has been the same with superman.

Having dark stories is not the same as being defined by them, Superman isn't Batman. The majority of his works are not like The Crow. Even Death of Superman wasn't a depressing read, it was a story with dark moments in it.

I think many are panicked because Snyder is going to outdo anything Whedon ever did. That is something to fear.

You'd be wrong.

I have to take my time to inject a small smile, there are so many things from a DC point that is flawed. I doubt anyone who likes both marvel and dc can see this as 100% face value.

But not when it does to Snyder's DC work.

Whedon did not change the game for superhero movies. His Avengers movies was only made a big deal for the 2nd tier superheros and getting them to crossover. if you grew up as a neutral comic fan loving Batman, Superman or the marvel characters that had their rights sold off, Avengers is a pretty meaningless movie to you in the long haul, even among older marvel fans from the 90s and earlys 2000s, Joss Whedon's Avengers film is a joke to the stand alone Marvel films made before Avengers. Also Whedon's Avengers movies have the weakest superhero movie legacy. The money might be good but the artistry isn't.

You're not getting what an achievement Whedon made with Avengers. Super-hero team films have been very difficult to make as ensembles and that's before adding into continuity from numerous solo movies into the mix. The only directors who have been able to replicate it has been the Russo's. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm going to disagree.

If Snyder was rejected why would WB now release the cut and spend 30+ million on it and give it an HBO themed production? That is not a rejection. Far from it. Whedon's Justice League is what was rejected. The release the cut movement has been around since late 2016.

That's a downgrade. If Snyder isn't rejected why hasn't he made any DCEU movies in theatres since? It's a fandom, not a movement.

[Synestra]

Some MCU fans here are reading Snyder all wrong, what he was saying was Superman deserves movies if Thor and MCU characters were getting movies since Superman is such an iconic figure. that is not a diss

Except he is blatantly insulting the movies by implying the characters don't deserve to have movies. The remark doesn't make sense either, as Superman has multiple movies while those MCU characters didn't at the time.

Snyder's plan was to elevate Superman above movies like black panther and thor that would be seen as plain . safe and generic. This is what some critics could not tolerate since critics seems to be obsessed with DC been exactly like the MCU, they hired the now disgraced Whedon to make that happen.

And we see how that plan turned out...

Whedon was hired in an attempt to turn the DCEU movies around, because it wasn't just critics who had less than stellar opinions, even before Justice League.

A: Avengers holds a 91% RT audience score and grossed over $1 billion
B: Man of Steel holds a 75% RT audience score and grossed $668 million

C: Avenger: Age of Ultron holds a 83% RT audience score and grossed over $1 billion
D: BvS holds a 62% RT audience score and grossed $873 million

The live action film that brought Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman together couldn't break the billion dollar threshold, and has lower scores than the MCU movies based on audiences, all before Joss Whedon. Moreover, it wasn't "safe" for Marvel to use their lesser known characters, they took the risk and turned it into a massive success. Whether or not you consider them "plain" is subjective, because they're not to a lot of fans.

But it's clear that Snyder was trying to insult the MCU movies, which is amusing considering the state of his own.

[Castle]

No.
.

There is. if you look at superhero movies,there has been calls for superhero movies to take freedom and tell adult oriented stories. I don't think the Snyder Cut would have happened if we did not have such calls.

Please tell me you don't believe Disney was paying off critics at Rotten Tomatoes.

Please tell me you don't believe that rotten tomatoes scores is the evidence that one movie is better than the other? Disney does not have to pay critics, I think critics have made too much of a mess of themselves with their blatant bias and agendas.

This shouldn't be a surprise, many DC fans dislike Snyder's vision. The context for a company being united is not whether they're under one roof, this is about management and the audience. Please, keep Snyder away from Marvel. Cavill, Gadot, Fisher, Momoa and Adams are welcome.

How much are the many DC fans? can you count them? DC fans appreciates Man of steel than what WB hired Whedon to do with DC.

It's really not. Light hearted super-hero movies have been made in Hollywood long before the MCU was founded. Snyder isn't entitled to anything, he's an artist. This is what happens when art goes public, and this wasn't an indy flick it's big budget licensed movies.

What were the light hearted Disney superhero movies? its was not Spiderman or X-Men or Batman or Superman or even independent movies like V for Vendetta, Watcheman or Sin City. the first mainstream public DC movie was Superman, the first for Marvel was X-Men.
Comic films were made pubic in the 80s. 90s and 2000s. Please it did not start with MCU movies. MCU wont even been around if X-Men and Spiderman movies were not mainstream successful.

Having dark stories is not the same as being defined by them, Superman isn't Batman. The majority of his works are not like The Crow. Even Death of Superman wasn't a depressing read, it was a story with dark moments in it.

Its about telling different kind of superman stories. Snyder wanted to tell the darker stories about Superman , why is this upsetting

You'd be wrong.

Nahhh

But not when it does to Snyder's DC work.

Man of Steel was a great movie. its Snyder's work.

You're not getting what an achievement Whedon made with Avengers. Super-hero team films have been very difficult to make as ensembles and that's before adding into continuity from numerous solo movies into the mix. The only directors who have been able to replicate it has been the Russo's. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm going to disagree.

there are stand alone DC superhero movies that mop the floor with every Avengers film: Superman 2, The Dark Knight, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight Rises and Man of Steel.

Its funny how you are badly using MCU logic on a DC film. DC does not need Whedon or the Russos. who are the Russos? Ensembles movies is good for 2nd tier superheros. if they are as groundbreaking then why are the new Spiderman movies not as great as the old ones?

That's a downgrade. If Snyder isn't rejected why hasn't he made any DCEU movies in theatres since? It's a fandom, not a movement.

Snyder's last project was Justice League. It was never revealed what his plans next plans were about

[Alan2099]

Man of Steel is in the same league as those movies. You said MCU isn't pushing an agenda but they were. it was MCU that started the light hearted movies that Snyder said he was not doing from the start, maybe ''professional critics'' should have respected his decision.

Why should they respect it? Respect is earned. Should we respect that Schumacher was making campy toy commercials? Should we respect that Trank wanted to make the Fantastic Four into a dark Croenburg body horror type movie? Should we respect the people who did Catwoman did whatever the hell that thing turned out to be?

If you made the decision to stick a rabid badger down your underpants, should I respect that decision or can I say that you're doing something really stupid?

If darker movies have been around, why did critics all of sudden start to scream, Man of Steel was too dark?

Bloody gory horror movies have been around for a long time, but if you decide to make Casper the friendly ghost into a bloodbath, you better expect people to get upset. Sexplotation movies have been around for a long time, but if Wonder Woman is taking her top off every other scene, you might not exactly be giving people the kind of movie they want.

Disney does not have to pay critics, I think critics have made too much of a mess of themselves with their blatant bias and agendas.

"Why is everybody else wrong but me?"

[Castle]

Except he is blatantly insulting the movies by implying the characters don't deserve to have movies. The remark doesn't make sense either, as Superman has multiple movies while those MCU characters didn't at the time.And we see how that plan turned out...

.

You are reading much into Marvel vs DC. Snyder said what he said from a film and pop culture place.Chris Pine said something worse about Avengers than Snyder when Wonder Woman was out and I doubt he was saying that because he was in a DC movie. Contrary to popular belief, not every criticism is about marvel/DC.

A: Avengers holds a 91% RT audience score and grossed over $1 billion
B: Man of Steel holds a 75% RT audience score and grossed $668 million

C: Avenger: Age of Ultron holds a 83% RT audience score and grossed over $1 billion
D: BvS holds a 62% RT audience score and grossed $873 million

Snyder's tone for man of steel, story, his cinematography and his directing is better than what whedon did. whedon made a fun safe comic film for Disney with no artistry. Snyder did the opposite of that. That is what matters not rotten tomatoes.

The live action film that brought Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman together couldn't break the billion dollar threshold, and has lower scores than the MCU movies based on audiences, all before Joss Whedon.

I am less subjective, I think a lot of fans are too. You know what is even more popular than rotten tomatoes? the information that it is a garbage website and critics have a blatant slant. Dawn of Justice would have made a billion if the movie was treated fairly.

how much do you think rotten tomatoes will influence fans view of the Cut in 2021? ZERO%

[SiegePerilous02]

I am less subjective, I think a lot of fans are too. You know what is even more popular than rotten tomatoes? the information that it is a garbage website and critics have a blatant slant. Dawn of Justice would have made a billion if the movie was treated fairly.

how much do you think rotten tomatoes will influence fans view of the Cut in 2021? ZERO%

No, the apathy of the audience and poor word of mouth indicates that it wasn't likely to make a billion dollars. The movie was front loaded, most of the money it made was in its first weekend because people were insanely hyped to see Superman and Batman in a movie together for the first time ever (with Wonder Woman being the cherry on top). It had an incredibly steep drop after that because people got a load of what it was. We've seen poorly reviewed films that have done pretty well at the box office with less steep drops.

RT isn't going to influence fans who really wanted to see the Snyder Cut. But they are fans of the take, everyone else who was lukewarm or hated it will likely feel the same way about Snyder's JL. And they aren't necessarily going to be fans of Whedon either.

Snyder's tone for man of steel, story, his cinematography and his directing is better than what whedon did. whedon made a fun safe comic film for Disney with no artistry. Snyder did the opposite of that. That is what matters not rotten tomatoes.

And yet the general audience embraced the latter more than the former. If Snyder was doing a more experimental and divisive film, it shouldn't have been marketed and released as a big blockbuster with a blockbuster budget that needed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible to make a profit and launch a franchise. Less safe films than BvS tend to review better on Rotten Tomatoes, maybe some of them are actual good movies within the expectations of their genre whereas BvS simply isn't?

This would be like releasing an experimental artsy horror film from A24 and expecting it to have wide appeal over several demographics. Sometimes it's the perfect storm of incompatible ideas coming together.

[Castle]

No, the apathy of the audience and poor word of mouth indicates that it wasn't likely to make a billion dollars. The movie was front loaded, most of the money it made was in its first weekend because people were insanely hyped to see Superman and Batman in a movie together for the first time ever (with Wonder Woman being the cherry on top). It had an incredibly steep drop after that because people got a load of what it was. We've seen poorly reviewed films that have done pretty well at the box office with less steep drops.

Not saying this was not true but one has to wonder? why was there poor word of mouth in the first place, when there are worse movies out there with no true direction. Seriously age of ultron?

RT isn't going to influence fans who really wanted to see the Snyder Cut. But they are fans of the take, everyone else who was lukewarm or hated it will likely feel the same way about Snyder's JL. And they aren't necessarily going to be fans of Whedon either

RT has never influenced many fans that are looking and want to judge movie like an art to be judged. What is the RT score for Snyder's Watchmen?

And yet the general audience embraced the latter more than the former. If Snyder was doing a more experimental and divisive film, it shouldn't have been marketed and released as a big blockbuster with a blockbuster budget that needed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible to make a profit and launch a franchise. Less safe films than BvS tend to review better on Rotten Tomatoes, maybe some of them are actual good movies within the expectations of their genre whereas BvS simply isn't?

Except you don't know of all the audiences thoughts based on RT. that site is even more of a joke when you see fans mock how Star Wars Rise of Skywalker has maintained the same audience score after thousands of fan reviews. RT hardly represent 20% of every person that has seen a movie.

its a far stretch to say man of steel was a full on experimental film, that is more Joker or Logan, but Snyder definitely , with DC was not marketing man of steel like the next Avengers. it was suppose to be a different kind of blockbuster.

[Rev9]

[QUOTE=Alan2099;5035716]Why should they respect it? Respect is earned. Should we respect that Schumacher was making campy toy commercials? Should we respect that Trank wanted to make the Fantastic Four into a dark Croenburg body horror type movie? Should we respect the people who did Catwoman did whatever the hell that thing turned out to be?

If you made the decision to stick a rabid badger down your underpants, should I respect that decision or can I say that you're doing something really stupid?


Bloody gory horror movies have been around for a long time, but if you decide to make Casper the friendly ghost into a bloodbath, you better expect people to get upset.

[Rev9]

[QUOTE=Rev9;5035770]

Why should they respect it? Respect is earned. Should we respect that Schumacher was making campy toy commercials? Should we respect that Trank wanted to make the Fantastic Four into a dark Croenburg body horror type movie? Should we respect the people who did Catwoman did whatever the hell that thing turned out to be?

If you made the decision to stick a rabid badger down your underpants, should I respect that decision or can I say that you're doing something really stupid?


Bloody gory horror movies have been around for a long time, but if you decide to make Casper the friendly ghost into a bloodbath, you better expect people to get upset.

Sorry but you speak as if Superman is some dogma that is on some parchment in a museum.It's a comic book character whose basic 'tenets' were there in MoS, as long as basic tenets are fulfilled the rest can be attributed to iteration of basic character.MoS Superman is as much Superman as CR Superman (1978). If you told me there's a movie about Blade where he sucks people dry your Casper analogy would fly ,but not here dude.

[Alan2099]

Sorry but you speak as if Superman is some dogma that is on some parchment in a museum.It's a comic book character whose basic 'tenets' were there in MoS, as long as basic tenets are fulfilled the rest can be attributed to iteration of basic character.MoS Superman is as much Superman as CR Superman (1978). If you told me there's a movie about Blade where he sucks people dry your Casper analogy would fly ,but not here dude.

Are you sure you're replying to the right person?

I never said the basics of Superman weren't there, but the execution falls far and away from what people wanted from a Superman movie. Just because you can experiment doesn't mean that it's a good idea. People have certain expectations from an adapted property. As you stay away from those expectations, you begin to alienate your audience.

People have an idea of what a Superman movie should be. The people who want a Superman movie want those particular things. if you don't give them to the people, why should they care about the movie?

[Rev9]

Are you sure you're replying to the right person?

I never said the basics of Superman weren't there, but the execution falls far and away from what people wanted from a Superman movie. Just because you can experiment doesn't mean that it's a good idea. People have certain expectations from an adapted property. As you stay away from those expectations, you begin to alienate your audience.

People have an idea of what a Superman movie should be. The people who want a Superman movie want those particular things. if you don't give them to the people, why should they care about the movie?

As I said the basic tenets of Superman or what it means to be Superman were there.I don't know maybe your 'particular things' are not tenets but idiosyncrasies and that means you want to see the movies that came before being remastered for lack of a better word.I do not see how that enriches the genre

[Alan2099]

As I said the basic tenets of Superman or what it means to be Superman were there. I don't know maybe your 'particular things' are not tenets but idiosyncrasies and that means you want to see the movies that came before being remastered for lack of a better word.I do not see how that enriches the genre

I'd say most of the basic tenets where there, but not all of them. Much of the characterization, themes, and mood were lacking from Synder's Superman. if you want to call these idiosyncrasies, you can. I see them more as the heart and soul of the character. That's exactly what Synder gave us. He gave us a guy that looks like Superman, but has no soul.

I do not see how that enriches the genre

I could care less about enriching the genre. That's just artsy-fartsy talk from pretentiously irritating people that think their artistic desire are more important than they really are.

You know what I want to see in a Superman movie?
I want to see Superman. I want to see Superman, looking and acting like Superman and doing Superman things in a world were being Superman actually makes sense.
Maybe that isn't artistic enough for you, but I honestly don't care.

If you told me there's a movie about Blade where he sucks people dry your Casper analogy would fly ,but not here dude.

We're given a Superman that's been raised to think it's okay to let people die as long as you don't inconvenience yourself. I'd say that's right up there with your Blade analogy.