Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[SiegePerilous02]

There's also the possibility that people are projecting deeper meanings onto this thing than are actually there.

People don't need explaining on the Martha thing. People understood it, it was just executed in a dumb way. It is not believable that Superman would say "Martha" instead of the much more realistic "please save my mother." Batman uses some TDKR lines earlier in the fight indicating that he knows Superman has parents, and then is dumbfounded that Superman has a mother? If it's because she has the same as his, then the World's Greatest Detective didn't realize that Martha is a common name and other women would share the same name as his mother. His OTT reaction makes the whole thing unintentionally hilarious.

[Rev9]

That is the root of it all. it all began with lazy criticism. Many Man of steel criticism was lazy, the only actual criticism that works is perhaps the action scenes were too much in the end but this is not a criticism that is very bad.

The idea PA Kent is terrible makes little sense, he chose to die than to have his son expose himself. he made the ultimate parental sacrifice. He was a great parent.

I can't remember much about the CIA scene in BvS but I do remember every detail of the Lois and Batman story when Superman was concerned and it was more impressive than critics gave it credit for.

Someone said, Snyder movies don't have deeper meaning but it seems to me that critics chose not to look at any deeper meaning. I mean we have to keep explaining why batman freaked out by the name martha, even though that plot twist has been built up right from the very first scene.

One thing I've noticed about the criticisms of both the movies is they are all superficial and nebulous..it's too dark, the execution was bad...if you ask someone beyond 'execution' what they mean ,they'll not really tell you what they mean or if they will it will be by trying to fit something into the narrative that does not work. Like for example Johnathan tells Clark ..(not verbatim)you have to find the answer to your heritage.So if say Johnathan died of a heart attack, are you telling me Kal would be more motivated to at a bare minimum look for his biological heritage on the back of his old man dying of a heart attack or more vehemently so BECAUSE his old man (who he did not acknowledge as his real dad moments later)laid his life down for him to keep the secret of his alien heritage?

People who criticise the film do not realise that 'fixing' scenes according to their idea does not even improve the narrative in-film ,if anything it makes it worse

[Castle]

There's also the possibility that people are projecting deeper meanings onto this thing than are actually there.

People don't need explaining on the Martha thing. People understood it, it was just executed in a dumb way. It is not believable that Superman would say "Martha" instead of the much more realistic "please save my mother." Batman uses some TDKR lines earlier in the fight indicating that he knows Superman has parents, and then is dumbfounded that Superman has a mother? If it's because she has the same as his, then the World's Greatest Detective didn't realize that Martha is a common name and other women would share the same name as his mother. His OTT reaction makes the whole thing unintentionally hilarious.

I can agree by 50% it was executed in a dumb way because I don't call my mum by her name but that is 50%. It was just overblown but we have had worse plot twists.

If it's because she has the same as his, then the World's Greatest Detective didn't realize that Martha is a common name and other women would share the same name as his mother. His OTT reaction makes the whole thing unintentionally hilarious.

This could be so but there is one factor. Batman has lived with 30+ years of truma, that is not hilarious that is PTSDs that shows itself.

Batman uses some TDKR lines earlier in the fight indicating that he knows Superman has parents, and then is dumbfounded that Superman has a mother?

You could be projecting deeper meaning to something that may not be there with your stance of indication. Batman may have known superman had parents but did Batman know what his parents were about or did?

[Rev9]

There's also the possibility that people are projecting deeper meanings onto this thing than are actually there.

People don't need explaining on the Martha thing. People understood it, it was just executed in a dumb way. It is not believable that Superman would say "Martha" instead of the much more realistic "please save my mother." Batman uses some TDKR lines earlier in the fight indicating that he knows Superman has parents, and then is dumbfounded that Superman has a mother? If it's because she has the same as his, then the World's Greatest Detective didn't realize that Martha is a common name and other women would share the same name as his mother. His OTT reaction makes the whole thing unintentionally hilarious.

Saying save my mother doesn't mean anything if just moments before Batman tells him 'I bet your parents taught you ,you mean something,that you're here for a reason' and then says 'you were never a god ,you were never even a man' Do those words suggest that implying a Kryptonian hiding along with Clark would mean a thing to Batman? Batman had seen footage of meta humans not long before what makes you think he would stall on 'mother'? It was all about PTSD making him realise 'save Martha' was not a snide joke but really there was a human out there that needed saving,a woman just coincidentally like his mother who would share his mother's fate..let alone the other factors like him turning into Joe Chill in that moment

[HsssH]

Pa Kent being very protective of his adopted son is not some "deeper meaning", multiple scenes were devoted to that plot point and it baffles me how some people still don't get it. Reminds me a bit of some people arguing that it is not clear if Joker's relationship with Sophie was real or not. Like, holy **** people, what do you need? For director to directly insert himself into the middle of the movie and bluntly explain what happened?

[SiegePerilous02]

This could be so but there is one factor. Batman has lived with 30+ years of truma, that is not hilarious that is PTSDs that shows itself.



You could be projecting deeper meaning to something that may not be there with your stance of indication. Batman may have known superman had parents but did Batman know what his parents were about or did?

I think it's more likely Snyder included those lines because he thought it'd be cool to include them because they were in TDKR. Not that they work nearly as well in the same context. It would have been better with different dialogue.

So Batman only cares if a sentient being has human parents? And then kills a few more dudes after that anyway? That's pretty awful.

Saying save my mother doesn't mean anything if just moments before Batman tells him 'I bet your parents taught you ,you mean something,that you're here for a reason' and then says 'you were never a god ,you were never even a man' Do those words suggest that implying a Kryptonian hiding along with Clark would mean a thing to Batman? Batman had seen footage of meta humans not long before what makes you thing he would stall on 'mother'? It was all about PTSD making him realise 'save Martha' was not a snide joke but really there was a human out there that needed saving,a woman just coincidentally like his mother who would share his mother's fate..let alone the other factors like him turning into Joe Chill in that moment

None of that is in the movie, and is just fan theories to make sense out of a scene that just isn't very clear in what it wants to say. The earlier dialogue of "my parents taught me something while they were lying in the gutter etc" is lifted from TDKR because that's the comic the imagery and basic setup is being borrowed from, and I'm not sure any deeper intent was put into it beyond "it's a badass thing Batman says in the comic, it should be in the movie.". But in the context of the comic, Bruce had a long history of friendship with Clark and knew his origins and about his Earth parents. He doesn't know that here, but the line is used without altering/elaboration that he could be talking about other aliens. It's shallow.

Not to mention plotting to murder a man that hasn't done anything wrong just because he might be dangerous, and not caring about his parents until he learns at least one of them is a human, makes him look awful. Yeah, there are comics that have Batman be racists against metahumans or whatever, but those comics and portrayals suck. Yeah, this version has PTSD but we don't know this version well enough to care. it's relying on people bringing in their knowledge of Batman to do the legwork of making them care. It's a dodgy plot idea to begin with, but if we saw the BTAS or Nolan Batman descend into violence and lash out this way we'd have more of a foundation to be invested. It's a lot to ask of an audience right out of the gate.

A better way to break through to Batman would be for Clark to learn that Dick Grayson was dead and try to empathize and connect with him that way, because since becoming Batman it would make sense that that was the single biggest traumatic experience he had. But no, Dick's death is barely a footnote here, Snyder said he would only hint at it further in JL (when it should have been dealt with in this) and we get the "MARTHA!!" meme instead.

[Castle]

Pa Kent being very protective of his adopted son is not some "deeper meaning", multiple scenes were devoted to that plot point and it baffles me how some people still don't get it. Reminds me a bit of some people arguing that it is not clear if Joker's relationship with Sophie was real or not. Like, holy **** people, what do you need? For director to directly insert himself into the middle of the movie and bluntly explain what happened?

Its not that you need to explain, it seems like what they are saying was never a thing in the film or only a small fraction of the film that got expanded on and fast.

They keep saying PA Kent told Superman to let a kid die when he said maybe.

The weakest criticism is still the superman should not have killed Zod angle. Zod was about to fry some kids and by standers. okay, let's wait for Superman to pull a Hulk and Loki in a high risk danger moment to make us laugh because man of steel was too dark.

This is not just lazy criticism. its just fantasy thinking.

[Rev9]

I think it's more likely Snyder included those lines because he thought it'd be cool to include them because they were in TDKR. Not that they work nearly as well in the same context. It would have been better with different dialogue.

So Batman only cares if a sentient being has human parents? And then kills a few more dudes after that anyway? That's pretty awful.



None of that is in the movie, and is just fan theories to make sense out of a scene that just isn't very clear in what it wants to say. The earlier dialogue of "my parents taught me something while they were lying in the gutter etc" is lifted from TDKR because that's the comic the imagery and basic setup is being borrowed from, and I'm not sure any deeper intent was put into it beyond "it's a badass thing Batman says in the comic, it should be in the movie.". But in the context of the comic, Bruce had a long history of friendship with Clark and knew his origins and about his Earth parents. He doesn't know that here, but the line is used without altering/elaboration that he could be talking about other aliens. It's shallow.

Not to mention plotting to murder a man that hasn't done anything wrong just because he might be dangerous, and not caring about his parents until he learns at least one of them is a human, makes him look awful. Yeah, there are comics that have Batman be racists against metahumans or whatever, but those comics and portrayals suck. Yeah, this version has PTSD but we don't know this version well enough to care. it's relying on people bringing in their knowledge of Batman to do the legwork of making them care. It's a dodgy plot idea to begin with, but if we saw the BTAS or Nolan Batman descend into violence and lash out this way we'd have more of a foundation to be invested. It's a lot to ask of an audience right out of the gate.

A better way to break through to Batman would be for Clark to learn that Dick Grayson was dead and try to empathize and connect with him that way, because since becoming Batman it would make sense that that was the single biggest traumatic experience he had. But no, Dick's death is barely a footnote here, Snyder said he would only hint at it further in JL (when it should have been dealt with in this) and we get the "MARTHA!!" meme instead.

None of that is in the movie'...after I use everything in film to explain scene. Smh

Since becoming batman ,it would make sense that Grayson's death was the single biggest traumatic experience he had..sure a crime fighting sidekick dying in line of duty is more tragic than getting to see your mum and dad killed as a child

[SiegePerilous02]

None of that is in the movie'...after I use everything in film to explain scene. Smh

The intention for Bruce's line is not explicitly linked to possible alien parents, it's just a line lifted from the comics that doesn't really apply to the current context so it probably shouldn't have been used.

So no, none of it is in the movie. it's just fanwank.

[Rev9]

The intention for Bruce's line is not explicitly linked to possible alien parents, it's just a line lifted from the comics that doesn't really apply to the current context so it probably shouldn't have been used.

So no, none of it is in the movie. it's just fanwank.

When someone sarcastically says your parents think you're special and then says you're not even hu(man) then are you saying Clark is an idiot to not put two and two together?..you're talking about dialogue as if it was said to you.Watch the film and base your reactions from those who the words are meant for.

[SiegePerilous02]

When someone sarcastically says your parents think you're special and then says you're not even hu(man) then are you saying Clark is an idiot to not put two and two together?..you're talking about dialogue as if it was said to you.Watch the film and base your reactions from those who the words are meant for.

I'm not even sure what you're saying in your first sentence. I'm reacting as it was said to Clark, who has no reason to know what the **** Bruce is going on about.

I've seen the film twice in theaters and once as the UC. The dialogue choice there is stupid if it still requires you to do mental gymnastics to apply it to the current situation. Snyder included it because it was from the comic, and I don't think any deep thought went into it beyond that.

[Rev9]

I'm not even sure what you're saying in your first sentence. I'm reacting as it was said to Clark, who has no reason to know what the **** Bruce is going on about.

I've seen the film twice in theaters and once as the UC. The dialogue choice there is stupid if it still requires you to do mental gymnastics to apply it to the current situation. Snyder included it because it was from the comic, and I don't think any deep thought went into it beyond that.

Do you realise you are projecting your own reasoning on Clark?You mean Clark in that moment cannot realise that all that taunting implies he is talking about Clark's Kryptonian parents and not his human ones, or even if by some infintisemal chance he assumes Batman knows he was raised by humans but thinks Clark doesn't care about his human parents and so all their faith in him is pointless,that Clark would not as a last ditch plea prove Batman wrong? You really don't give Clark credit here do you?

[SiegePerilous02]

Do you realise you are projecting your own reasoning on Clark?You mean Clark in that moment cannot realise that all that taunting implies he is talking about Clark's Kryptonian parents and not his human ones, or even if by some infintisemal chance he assumes Batman knows he was raised by humans but thinks Clark doesn't care about his human parents and so all their faith in him is pointless,that Clark would not as a last ditch plea prove Batman wrong? You really don't give Clark credit here do you?

Not really inclined to give this Clark too much credit, since he doesn't do the best job of trying to communicate with Bruce when the fight was getting started. Bruce was the worse of the two, but they both come across as idiots. Also, was Clark even fully conscious at that point to even hear and process what Bruce was saying. He wasn't exactly in great shape.

Plus, we have Zod's message over the TV in MoS describing a singular alien, not multiple ones, and he was later upfront about wiping us out so what reason would the World's Greatest Detective (lol) have for thinking he'd lie? Hell, Bruce doesn't know anything about Clark's species, they could materialize in any possible way why does he bring up "parents" (human or alien)? Because the line was in there for fan service, not much thought was put into including it when some other dialogue choices to enhance motivations more naturally and explicitly could have been made, and now we have to do mental gymnastics for this to make sense.

[Rev9]

Not really inclined to give this Clark too much credit, since he doesn't do the best job of trying to communicate with Bruce when the fight was getting started. Bruce was the worse of the two, but they both come across as idiots. Also, was Clark even fully conscious at that point to even hear and process what Bruce was saying. He wasn't exactly in great shape.

Plus, we have Zod's message over the TV in MoS describing a singular alien, not multiple ones, and he was later upfront about wiping us out so what reason would the World's Greatest Detective (lol) have for thinking he'd lie? Hell, Bruce doesn't know anything about Clark's species, they could materialize in any possible way why does he bring up "parents" (human or alien)? Because the line was in there for fan service, not much thought was put into including it when some other dialogue choices to enhance motivations more naturally and explicitly could have been made, and now we have to do mental gymnastics for this to make sense.

Clark did try to talk to Bruce but was attacked by the dibilitating weapons.
Lol why would Bruce think Zod would lie?Well he'd seen other metahumans on the Lex files,are we to assume he knew they were not aliens themselves? As I said everything is logical if you use exegesis(draw from the story and character in 1st person) not eisegesis (draw your own conclusions and impose them on the character)
Plus I said even if by some odd chance we presume Bruce found out Clark had human parents his thinking still holds true at that point he views Clark as alien so he would believe Clark's parents were wrong to put faith in a being who he deemed inhuman -same line different curcumstance yet same impact upon Clark and on Bruce by virtue of Clark's response

[SiegePerilous02]

Clark did try to talk to Bruce but was attacked by the dibilitating weapons.
Lol why would Bruce think Zod would lie?Well he'd seen other metahumans on the Lex files,are we to assume he knew they were not aliens themselves? As I said everything is logical if you use exegesis(draw from the story and character in 1st person) not eisegesis (draw your own conclusions and impose them on the character)
Plus I said even if by some odd chance we presume Bruce found out Clark had human parents his thinking still holds true at that point he views Clark as alien so he would believe Clark's parents were wrong to put faith in a being who he deemed inhuman -same line different curcumstance yet same impact upon Clark and on Bruce by virtue of Clark's response

He didn't try that hard. There were instances in that fight (like when Batman stops and starts to back up with a "oh ****" look on his face when the Kryptonite ran off or when the guns ran out) where he could have regained control of the situation and communicated. But this Superman sucks at communication and doesn't show much interest in it. The UC is better when it shows him helping survivors of the bomb explosion, but he still just flies off and only has himself to blame by not trying to communicate with anyone and explain what happened. One would think he has a martyr complex (though there are all those crucifix poses...)

I'd like Batman to do some actual detective work, but i guess we have to accept that he sucks now from PTSD due to events were are only vaguely told about but not shown, so we have no reason to care about him or said events. We just have to accept he's a murderous thug now with not much in the brains department.

Then that means Bruce thinks Clark had human parents but they suck and aren't worth considering...until he learns that another person on the planet is named Martha (my mom's name is Martha too, I'm just like Batman and Superman!). Which is stupid as all get out. You'r still doing mental gymnastics to make this line lifted from the comics work in the context of the film, but the smarter choice would be to show some restraint and not include it at all. Because it's just dumb fanservice.