Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[Coal Tiger]

You do know this statement is a strike against the MCU fandom, right? That people would willingly allow themselves to be manipulated and fall for a deception they knew was false?

Isn't that the whole point of movies? To believe in the world shown to you even if you know it's all false?

[Steel Inquisitor]

Isn't that the whole point of movies? To believe in the world shown to you even if you know it's all false?

It wasn't any less deceptive than Superman's death in B v S, and we all knew he was coming back. At least the MCU provided emotional connections to the audience, Superman was far more polarised in the Snyder-verse before Whedon made him somehow recognisable rather than the Ultraman Cavill was playing.

[Thezmage]

It wasn't any less deceptive than Superman's death in B v S, and we all knew he was coming back. At least the MCU provided emotional connections to the audience, Superman was far more polarised in the Snyder-verse before Whedon made him somehow recognisable rather than the Ultraman Cavill was playing.

I always thought that Cavill was recognizable as Superman whenever the script got out of his way. When he was allowed to just stand/sit there and be Superman he did a great job.

[Agent Z]

Anyone who thinks Cavill's Superman was Ultraman knows nothing of either Superman or Ultraman.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Anyone who thinks Cavill's Superman was Ultraman knows nothing of either Superman or Ultraman.

I know plenty about both. It's mind boggling how Snyder looked at Superman and that was what he came up with, he has a stronger grasp of Batman but that's not saying much. Of course, Cavill's Superman being a Superman as envisioned through the lens of Libertarianism would explain things.

[Agent Z]

I know plenty about both. It's mind boggling how Snyder looked at Superman and that was what he came up with, he has a stronger grasp of Batman but that's not saying much. Of course, Cavill's Superman being a Superman as envisioned through the lens of Libertarianism would explain things.

Snyder's Superman is first shown saving a bunch of men from an oil fire when a rescue helicopter missed them. He later is shown defending a woman who is being sexually harassed. When Zod arrives on Earth, he tries to negotiate with him in good faith and then for the first time in his life, actually uses violence against another sentient creature. In the second movie, he mostly uses his powers for rescue work and the dies to stop Doomsday.

Snyder's Superman is not perfect. No version of Superman is and I can list ones that have done far more questionable and less justifiable things than Cavill's Superman. But he is not the monster you keep comically painting him as.

[SiegePerilous02]

I know plenty about both. It's mind boggling how Snyder looked at Superman and that was what he came up with, he has a stronger grasp of Batman but that's not saying much. Of course, Cavill's Superman being a Superman as envisioned through the lens of Libertarianism would explain things.

I'm familiar with Superman and Ultraman, and have grown cold on Snyder's superman the longer it went on (and learning about the possible full arc), but calling him Ultraman is hyperbole. In some ways he's a better person than Donner's Superman (mind wipe kiss?).

I wouldn't say Snyder gets Batman much either, or at least he's focused on the TDKR Batman. And making him, at least initially, a misguided bad guy, which...fair. But I'd rather pry Batman out of Frank Miller's grasp altogether and put less of it out into the world. Basically my stance when it comes to Batman and Superman, and Donner, Miller and Snyder: we can do much better than all of the above.

[Blind Wedjat]

My biggest issue with Snyder's Superman is that he's so incredibly passive. Passive characters aren't inherently bad, but it was seriously overdone in BvS.

The entire plot of that film only works because Superman actually never tries to defend his name or say what he wants. Clark just goes around chasing an irrelevant story that doesn't matter at the climax of the film.

It's not even about comic book accuracy or whatever. It's just bad writing.

[CliffHanger2]

My biggest issue with Snyder's Superman is that he's so incredibly passive. Passive characters aren't inherently bad, but it was seriously overdone in BvS.

The entire plot of that film only works because Superman actually never tries to defend his name or say what he wants. Clark just goes around chasing an irrelevant story that doesn't matter at the climax of the film.

It's not even about comic book accuracy or whatever. It's just bad writing.

Eh...Heroes don't usually go around defending their name not in a vocal way anyway. They usually have to prove their innocence in by exposing something or someone in most stories. He was actually about to defend in his name in court until it blew up.

[Blind Wedjat]

Eh...Heroes don't usually go around defending their name not in a vocal way anyway. They usually have to prove their innocence in by exposing something or someone in most stories. He was actually about to defend in his name in court until it blew up.

But the entire movie is just people on TV just saying bad things about Superman. Clark's reaction to it is always just a sigh and looking off into the distance. He even says he doesn't care about it to Lois (even though he clearly is bothered by it). It always comes off as an annoyance by the way he reacts to it. The only time we see Superman doing good is when that montage with "The Superman Question" starts.

It doesn't make sense within the context of this film. I mean why doesn't Superman ever go talk to the guy that had his legs amputated? I know a plot usually moves forward because of the choices a character makes, but Superman doesn't make any choices. He just continues to let people say things about him that aren't true, and goes around investigating Batman. I mean come on, he's so bothered by Batman's methods but can't even defend his own name. It doesn't make sense. And even if it was a deliberate choice to show Clark not caring about Superman's reputation, then it makes him an unlikable protagonist and you can't blame me if I don't care when he dies

Even the court scene is a problem with script writing. They should have at least given a chance to say something about everything before the place blew up, instead of the Granny's Peach Tea nonsense. Just have your protagonist talk for goodness sake. He has such little lines of dialogue and it's so strange.

If BvS was a story about a hero that tried everything within his power to prove to the world he was a good man with good intentions, but a powerful man like Lex Luthor was able to manipulate the media and the system into saying otherwise, it could have been a really powerful statement. But the plot only works that way because Clark is so inhumanely passive about everything.

[Jokerz79]

But the entire movie is just people on TV just saying bad things about Superman. Clark's reaction to it is always just a sigh and looking off into the distance. He even says he doesn't care about it to Lois (even though he clearly is bothered by it). It always comes off as an annoyance by the way he reacts to it. The only time we see Superman doing good is when that montage with "The Superman Question" starts.

It doesn't make sense within the context of this film. I mean why doesn't Superman ever go talk to the guy that had his legs amputated? I know a plot usually moves forward because of the choices a character makes, but Superman doesn't make any choices. He just continues to let people say things about him that aren't true, and goes around investigating Batman. I mean come on, he's so bothered by Batman's methods but can't even defend his own name. It doesn't make sense. And even if it was a deliberate choice to show Clark not caring about Superman's reputation, then it makes him an unlikable protagonist and you can't blame me if I don't care when he dies

Even the court scene is a problem with script writing. They should have at least given a chance to say something about everything before the place blew up, instead of the Granny's Peach Tea nonsense. Just have your protagonist talk for goodness sake. He has such little lines of dialogue and it's so strange.

If BvS was a story about a hero that tried everything within his power to prove to the world he was a good man with good intentions, but a powerful man like Lex Luthor was able to manipulate the media and the system into saying otherwise, it could have been a really powerful statement. But the plot only works that way because Clark is so inhumanely passive about everything.

Even Quest for Peace had Superman address the world when asked what he was going to do.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Snyder's Superman is first shown saving a bunch of men from an oil fire when a rescue helicopter missed them. He later is shown defending a woman who is being sexually harassed. When Zod arrives on Earth, he tries to negotiate with him in good faith and then for the first time in his life, actually uses violence against another sentient creature. In the second movie, he mostly uses his powers for rescue work and the dies to stop Doomsday.

There's three DCEU Supermen:

MoS Superman:
You're right, he did all those things and if he did more I'd like him more than I do, except he stops doing that as much once the Kryptonians show up. Rescuing people becomes far less of a priority and how he engages in collateral damage is outright neglect. Dude doesn't care about large scale destruction, it never enters his mind. There is no self awareness, or research into how to improve how to save people or limit the destruction. Sometimes if he notices someone in danger he'll act quickly but they have to be in eye sight and its a blink and you'll miss it thing. It's a huge departure from what he was doing before the Kryptonians, I liked that Superman - I wish he was in the rest of the movie. Through the movie he constantly being told by his parents to not risk his life for anyone, his own father couldn't even tell him it was the right thing to rescue a bus full of kids. It's a f*** you, got mine mentality. By the third act he was in god mode with Zod and once he kills Zod he screams because this is bad? The there was no storyline for him in the rest of the movie that killing was bad. It's so bizarre, it comes off as a comical by the overacting. Where as this concern for human life when Zod was throwing trucks around? There was a small chance this Superman could have become a recognisable Superman that we all now and adore and Snyder blew it.

B v S Superman:
The worst DCEU Superman. MoS Superman may be reckless but he had a heart, this one is stone cold. He's give up entirely on humanity off-screen, when he does speak to people most of the time it's threats and intimidation, it's that or ignoring them or saying nothing. It's never explained how he got to this state. He's not proactive, he's passive. The movie keeps him as an outside force to the audience, we're not in his head. He barely offers much of an argument against Batman. His priorities are all over the place, he wants Batman to stop because ??? Yet he's ok with killing people and letting armed criminals escape while he's in the vicinity because he values picking fights with Batman over bringing criminals to justice when they shot up entire blocks. He's not very smart or curious, he stops using his x-ray vision. Despite his speed when a bomb goes off in his presence all he does is stay there and do nothing, when he's a veteran Superman who's seen things. When he does do super-hero things it's a chore for him, he loathes doing it and he's on the edge of a break down. He's the sort of Superman writers use to set up a less straw, like Lois dying, to make him evil - like Injustice Superman. Lex runs rings around him like he's the stereotypical brainless jock rather than a journalist from a newspaper. He's Affleck's Batman in a Superman suit without the substance. He's not charismatic and we're told he's supposed to be this huge figure that inspires people when he's really shown being a lonely apathetic god who says nothing. He's not on the front lines giving speeches, or giving confidence to people by showing up. He's a surly, irritable god who has lost faith in humanity and isn't that concerned about their welfare. MoS Superman would be horrified to learn that's what he turns into. He's well on his way to being Ultraman.

Whedon Superman:
This is most faithful Superman. They went too far in the other direction of being a goodie two-shoes but I'll take it over B vs S Superman.

Snyder's Superman is not perfect. No version of Superman is and I can list ones that have done far more questionable and less justifiable things than Cavill's Superman.

Snyder's Superman not being perfect is an understatement. Others have done terrible things, like in Superman Returns. What separated him Snyder's Superman is that you could see some part of him that was recognisable as Superman and he lived to help people. He didn't do the bare minimum about collateral damage and be apathetic about mass casualties being inflicted in broad daylight - like what Batman did with the Batmobile, or ignoring a known criminal group shooting up the city.

But he is not the monster you keep comically painting him as.

Oh, he is a monster.

Eh...Heroes don't usually go around defending their name not in a vocal way anyway. They usually have to prove their innocence in by exposing something or someone in most stories. He was actually about to defend in his name in court until it blew up.

He didn't have to wait until he was in court to do that. He could have gone on the news, but this Superman is allergic to interacting with the public under any circumstance or understanding why they'd turn on him after he was framed. Despite being a reporter he's completely oblivious to how optics work.

[Castle]

Looks like we are going to be getting A Robin back story. The hints were already there with Batman vs Superman.

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a3...t-robin-death/

It better be Jason Toad and not Tim Drake or Dick Grayson.

[daBronzeBomma]

Looks like we are going to be getting A Robin back story. The hints were already there with Batman vs Superman.

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a3...t-robin-death/

It better be Jason Toad and not Tim Drake or Dick Grayson.

Snyder confirmed it on his social media: The Robin who died was ... Dick Grayson.

I'm even less happy about this new vision of the movie now.

[Midvillian1322]

Snyder confirmed it on his social media: The Robin who died was ... Dick Grayson.

I'm even less happy about this new vision of the movie now.

Oy first Jimmy and now Dick. I mean I guess I get it. Having Bruce train one kid to be his accomplice works sort of but the idea that he's done it multiple times might come across wrong on screen. People **** on Tony Stark for involving a super powered spiderman in things. If Batman went through 3 or 4 kids it might be an issue but I guess they coulda done Dick and Jason and say Bruce never moved on after Jason's death.

As far as people arguing about Superman. I can't defend BvS but in MoS I think people don't recall all the good he did. I think alot of it gets lost because of the tone of the movie. People expect Superman to have a certain tone and Joy about it. But Snyder made it with the same somber tone most of his movies have. So I think that flavored people's idea of who this Superman was in that film.