Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[Menacer]

Shazam underperformed but I think it also was considered successful enough relative to its budget that it warranted a sequel, especially as they will be bringing in the Rock as more of a draw. It also performed better critically. As did Wonder Woman, which while the last act is criticized, it's nowhere near as much of a mess as the last act of BvS and it's first 2/3 are still more coherent with a more likeable protagonist.

BvS made money....mostly in its first weekend because it was hyped as a big event featuring the two biggest superheroes of all time. It was always going to do well that weekend, but it had terrible legs due to bad word of mouth. Nobody has really ever provided a convincing reason why the non-Marvel based criticisms (of which there are plenty- plot, acting, dialogue, editing, characterization, effects) don't deserve the criticism they got. Even the UC is only considered marginally better. Aquaman is far from being a cinematic masterpiece, but yes it being more self aware of the fact that its adapting a superhero and was fun entertainment helped it. It's not unreasonable for the general audience to go into a movie featuring Superman and Batman of all characters in it and expect to have fun. Even as a serious movie, it mostly fails because it's a teenager's attempt at serious, not actual depth, as if its ashamed of the characters its adapting and that they are aimed primarily at kids. There is a reason people came away from it liking Wonder Woman the most out of the three, she's the only one who just gets crap done without any pretentious navel gazing and has one moment of any semblance of superhero joy in it (the cocky/invigorated smile while fighting Doomsday).

Batman V Superman opened in March, globally, on one of the largest screen counts ever. The picture cost a reported $260 million, and turned in a $166 million opening weekend, one of the biggest in movie history.

Dude seriously it made it short of billion by 150 million

872.7 million USD box office global

Granted it had big drops largely fueled by bad reviews and likely bad word of mouth. The film has problems in that last 1/3 or 1/4

[SiegePerilous02]

Batman V Superman opened in March, globally, on one of the largest screen counts ever. The picture cost a reported $260 million, and turned in a $166 million opening weekend, one of the biggest in movie history.

Dude seriously it made it short of billion by 150 million

872.7 million USD box office global

Granted it had big drops largely fueled by bad reviews and likely bad word of mouth. The film has problems in that last 1/3 or 1/4

It was frontloaded. It made most of its money in its first weekend and set records, which shouldn't surprise anyone because it had Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman in it. Ed Wood* could have made that movie and it would have made bank its first weekend.

The unprecedented drops and lack of repeat business, also indicating that there wasn't much confidence in the brand going forward (there wasn't- Wonder Woman had good word of mouth but JL was dead on arrival no matter what because it was a sequel to this), were what made the studio worry. It wasn't an outright flop, but it's a weird case in that it needed $800 million just to break even. It's also possible it got bad reviews and bad word of mouth because it was genuinely a not very good movie?

*okay that's hyperbole, maybe not Ed Wood lol

[Rincewind]

No one discusses net profit..
But regardless if you can do basic math...

It made money

Batman V Superman opened in March, globally, on one of the largest screen counts ever. The picture cost a reported $260 million, and turned in a $166 million opening weekend, one of the biggest in movie history.

872.7 million USD - 260 = profit

That’s not how movie profit is calculated. You have to factor in marketing and distribution costs (these are not included in the production costs) and the studio does not get 100% of ticket sales. They typically get 50% from the domestic market, 25% from China, and 40% from the remaining international market.

Deadline has a breakdown here: https://deadline.com/2017/03/batman-...16-1202049201/

Also, while $166 million opening weekend sounds good, the following weekend had a 61% drop off. For a big budget tent pole movie, this is bad. Like really bad. The remaining run made less than it’s opening weekend bad.

BvS was also the first live action cinematic meeting of Batman and Superman, plus the first live action cinematic appearance of Wonder Woman. It was the setting up a cinematic universe of DC heroes in a time when superhero team up movies were making over a billion dollars.

Despite all that, it made less that the prior 2 Batman movies with Christian Bale. It made much less than the MCU movies it was designed to compete with. It made Warner Brothers redo their entire slate and future plans.

While BvS did turn a profit, it made much less and had a worse reception than the studio wanted.

[WebLurker]

Well your not wrong. Like you make a great argument.... if you dislike bvs... which i didnt

For me BvS was so exciting to watch. I connected with everything...

Fair enough.

it really only suffered for me personally because of 1 thing

the death of superman arc being slipped in at the end ... this is a huge arc ... id want to see funeral for a friend, reign of supermen, return... the idea of just slipping in a poorly designed orc doomsday just really was bad choice...

I'm not sure if I understand that (I think killing off Superman was the least of the film's problems and it didn't seem rushed to me -- granted, I knew a bit about Doomsday, chiefly that his only purpose is to kill Superman, so once you bring him in, you know where this is going), but I can understand thinking something was shoved in where it needed room to breathe; I have the same problem with The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (although I didn't like the movie overall) with how Gwen Stacy's death was shoved in at the last minute with not real time to actually pay it off (I think they should've either killed her off half way through the movie or not done it period).

But if snyder cut is really amazing I genuinely feel it could reframe man of steel, bvs and obvs JL...

I have heard the opinion that a bad movie remains a bad movie, even if other stuff props it up (which I kinda understand, but also feel that opinion doesn't take into account that film series are meant to be taken as their wholes, not slices).

But hey we are all here and in a few months we are gonna see how people respond..

That will be interesting. I suspect we'll see the usual differences between pro critics and people more interested in a good time than overanalyzing it, but it will be interesting if its seen a sort of redemption (like the BvS recut) or just a longer version of what we already got.

If masses of people flood to watch and like hbo jl... i mean it could really reframe a lot...

And zack may continue with his dc movies... even if only producing.

Which i suggest you take a look at his imdb. He is very connect to these projects...

If jl lands im 99% sure suicide squad will get a new cut..

Hard to know the future, but are either Snyder or Warners interested in resurrecting the Snyder-verse with the Snyder cut or just doing one last thing to give him a better finale for his involvement with the DC franchise? I mean, the DCEU moved on from the Snyder-verse to great success a long time ago and while they are finding success in having non-DCEU movies alongside the core series, there is a difference between a completely original project and one that's an alternate non-canon sequel to a movie series where the timeline has already molded itself to the "real" version of the recut we're getting.

For that matter, what if it tanks? What then do we make of the whole project?

And whats really crazy about this is with minimal investment wb can sell these movies twice..

Jl was about 650mil global box office. Plus dvd, blu ray, streaming...

Now they invest 70mil.... and they can sell it all over again

Same for suicide sqaud...

Oddly they can double there money for the same project

Am I wrong for thinking that sounds horrible? I mean, I do like directors' cuts and extended editions, but I like there being a decent artistic reason for their existence, not just to make more money (and yes, I get that that's the reason any film is made, but you know what I mean). Also, I think I'd prefer more time invested then getting it right the first time instead of shipping a half-baked project with the assurances that it'll be fixed on the DVD.

[Menacer]

Well WebLurker, Rincewind and SiegePerilous02 those are some damn good and detailed responses.

To avoid us talking in circles I won't respond to each point. Cause you all make good points.

Rather I'll focus on the fact that I'm a fan of BvS. I'm very excited for the JL Snyder Cut ....

Batman Returns was the last time I was really really happy with Michael Keaton as Batman... val, George, bale, did nothing for me. Or at least didn't excite me.

Ben crushed it and there is so much to like about BvS, and for me, only a few complaints.

There is a clear ridiculous bias towards reviewing so many marvel movies so well... and basically across the board poorly reviewing dc projects.


And can anyone explain how birds of prey gets a 78% rotten tomatoes score. And bvs gets 28%??

[lowfyr]

Maybe you should actually read my posts before commenting?

Literally said this "Yah my whole argument is on the basis that I like it... and that I think that in time new generations will not be clouded by the biases that surround its release....

Of course I'm just spouting..."

Just one post above you.

I never claimed fact

Its my opinion

Like I said I'm just spouting/chatting

I read the post I quoted. What you write in a comment some time after it is another matter. And this works both ways.
"just spouting/chatting" is nice and all but don't use words like "braindead" and do not be surprised if others have an opinion regarding your comments.

Just my opinion.

[Midvillian1322]

Well WebLurker, Rincewind and SiegePerilous02 those are some damn good and detailed responses.

To avoid us talking in circles I won't respond to each point. Cause you all make good points.

Rather I'll focus on the fact that I'm a fan of BvS. I'm very excited for the JL Snyder Cut ....

Batman Returns was the last time I was really really happy with Michael Keaton as Batman... val, George, bale, did nothing for me. Or at least didn't excite me.

Ben crushed it and there is so much to like about BvS, and for me, only a few complaints.

There is a clear ridiculous bias towards reviewing so many marvel movies so well... and basically across the board poorly reviewing dc projects.


And can anyone explain how birds of prey gets a 78% rotten tomatoes score. And bvs gets 28%??

Took my wife to see BOP and she loved it. She fell asleep during BVS and walked out when I watched the ultimate cut at home. I think non comic fans found BOP to be atleast fun. BVS got the full ridicule treatment. I mean they were mocking it on late night talk shows. I understand a certain chunk of the fan base loved it but alot of people did not like that movie. Way more then you want for a blockbuster. BOP outrage I only really saw in Comicbook fan circles.

For background my wife is the ultimate casual fan. She's only seen CBMs because I drag her to them. She liked the vast majority of the MCU, Logan,Deadpool 1and 2,Wonder Woman,Aquaman,Shazam,BOP,Aquaman and into the spider verse. She only really hated Snyders DC films and Suicide Squad.

[Menacer]

I read the post I quoted. What you write in a comment some time after it is another matter. And this works both ways.
"just spouting/chatting" is nice and all but don't use words like "braindead" and do not be surprised if others have an opinion regarding your comments.

Just my opinion.

Well that's very didactic of you. Thank you

[Menacer]

Took my wife to see BOP and she loved it. She fell asleep during BVS and walked out when I watched the ultimate cut at home. I think non comic fans found BOP to be atleast fun. BVS got the full ridicule treatment. I mean they were mocking it on late night talk shows. I understand a certain chunk of the fan base loved it but alot of people did not like that movie. Way more then you want for a blockbuster. BOP outrage I only really saw in Comicbook fan circles.

For background my wife is the ultimate casual fan. She's only seen CBMs because I drag her to them. She liked the vast majority of the MCU, Logan,Deadpool 1and 2,Wonder Woman,Aquaman,Shazam,BOP,Aquaman and into the spider verse. She only really hated Snyders DC films and Suicide Squad.

Yah that's a good point.

My gf is not interested in superhero films but she doesn't like the idea of me going by myself or with other friends.

So she always comes too.

Shazam and WW she actually liked... she likes the burton batman's...

She just generally likes films more character and plot focused then just huge amounts of action...

She was eager to leave tenant for example... as its mostly a series of complex action set pieces...

[Thezmage]

And can anyone explain how birds of prey gets a 78% rotten tomatoes score. And bvs gets 28%??

78% of critics liked Birds of Prey, whilst only 28% of critics liked Batman V Superman.

[Menacer]

78% of critics liked Birds of Prey, whilst only 28% of critics liked Batman V Superman.

You're one of the facts are facts guys!!
LOL

[WebLurker]

Well WebLurker, Rincewind and SiegePerilous02 those are some damn good and detailed responses.

To avoid us talking in circles I won't respond to each point. Cause you all make good points.

Rather I'll focus on the fact that I'm a fan of BvS. I'm very excited for the JL Snyder Cut ....

Batman Returns was the last time I was really really happy with Michael Keaton as Batman... val, George, bale, did nothing for me. Or at least didn't excite me.

Ben crushed it and there is so much to like about BvS, and for me, only a few complaints.

Fair enough. (I did think that Ben Afflek turned out to be a good choice for the role, too; agree or disagree with the script he was given, he delivered on what he was told to do. I think I liked Christian Bale as Batman better for live action -- although Afflek had the better Batman voice -- and Kevin Conroy in the old cartoons is my favorite Batman, but can't complain about the recast. Need to see the Keaton movies sometime.)

There is a clear ridiculous bias towards reviewing so many marvel movies so well... and basically across the board poorly reviewing dc projects.

Seems to me like most Marvel Studios films get a positive reception, but I get the feeling that few of them are considered outstanding or groundbreaking. I mean, they usually are well-cast, the stories are interesting, and the entertainment value is usually there. And that's okay; there's nothing wrong with a movie just being "good." I mean, I remember when Captain Marvel came out and a common thing used to argue against it was that it wasn't much different from the early MCU origin films, which I didn't really understand how that was a bad thing. You can fairly argue that it wasn't as artistic as Logan or Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, but took the kind of movie it was and did a good version of that. (Also, as far as biases go, several of the early films were not as well received, e.g. Iron Man 2 The Dark World, and I think that's fair, since the quality of the MCU, while I think is generally good overall, does vary from film to film.)

Not sure DC has been doing that badly from a critical standpoint; taking everything they've been doing since Man of Steel, only BvS, Suicide Squad, and Justice League got truly bad reviews (and the latter two films had troubled productions and suffered from re-edits that tried to change the whole tone -- although I have to say that I found them oddly enjoyable anyways). Man of Steel itself got mixed reviews and everything else had a generally positive reception from critics.

And can anyone explain how birds of prey gets a 78% rotten tomatoes score. And bvs gets 28%??

Honestly, I think Birds of Prey was a better movie then BvS; not only has Margo Robbie proven to be perfect casting, but the story and script perfectly suited the character in terms of story and tone (with BvS, I'm not sure dark and gritty was the way to go for Superman and I have to agree with the people pointing out that Batman does not kill people). I would also argue that it was a better written film, in terms of the story making sense, character arcs, fight scenes, etc. Also, Black Mask was a superior villain to Lex Luthor, Jr., both in terms of motivations, acting performance, and in being funny.

[Thezmage]

You're one of the facts are facts guys!!
LOL

You asked, I answered

[Rincewind]

And can anyone explain how birds of prey gets a 78% rotten tomatoes score. And bvs gets 28%??

Movies are judged based on what they are trying to be. Roger Ebert was once asked why he had given thumbs up to a silly forgettable comedy while giving thumbs down to a serious ambitious drama. Ebert replied that the comedy made him laugh, so it accomplished what it was trying to do. He felt that the drama was not as thought provoking or as engaging as it was trying to be, so he gave it thumbs down.

Birds of Prey was a mid budget action comedy with comedic anti hero lead, over the top violence, and a story relying on female empowerment in a city run by abusive corrupt men. While it's not the deepest or most ambitious movie, most viewers felt that the comedy worked, the action sequences worked, and the characters made sense. The audience that saw it (including critics) felt the movie mostly accomplished this leading to the decent 78% positive reviews.

Batman V Superman was trying to be an epic conflict that deconstructed several iconic characters while creating a complex realistic world leading to a cinematic universe. While technically well made with several amazing shots and action sequences, there are many elements of the characterization, themes, and plot that many felt just didn't work. The takes on Superman and Batman did not work for most viewers. Instead of an idealistic hero who was raised by good and moral parents, Superman instead comes off as a Randian god who seems put upon by those he is above. It didn't help that Superman only had 43 lines in the theatrical release. Batman was supposed to be a realistic portrayal of someone who is burnt out after years of dealing with the worst criminals ever, who can only see the danger in Superman. But instead he came off as a cynical edgy take who is ready to kill someone until he learns their moms had the same name. The version of Luthor annoyed most viewers, and the plot felt convoluted. While the uncut version may fix some plot holes, it did not change the themes or characterization. While BvS is a much more complex and ambitious movie, most critics and viewers did not feel it work as an overall movie.

[Menacer]

Movies are judged based on what they are trying to be. Roger Ebert was once asked why he had given thumbs up to a silly forgettable comedy while giving thumbs down to a serious ambitious drama. Ebert replied that the comedy made him laugh, so it accomplished what it was trying to do. He felt that the drama was not as thought provoking or as engaging as it was trying to be, so he gave it thumbs down.

Birds of Prey was a mid budget action comedy with comedic anti hero lead, over the top violence, and a story relying on female empowerment in a city run by abusive corrupt men. While it's not the deepest or most ambitious movie, most viewers felt that the comedy worked, the action sequences worked, and the characters made sense. The audience that saw it (including critics) felt the movie mostly accomplished this leading to the decent 78% positive reviews.

Batman V Superman was trying to be an epic conflict that deconstructed several iconic characters while creating a complex realistic world leading to a cinematic universe. While technically well made with several amazing shots and action sequences, there are many elements of the characterization, themes, and plot that many felt just didn't work. The takes on Superman and Batman did not work for most viewers. Instead of an idealistic hero who was raised by good and moral parents, Superman instead comes off as a Randian god who seems put upon by those he is above. It didn't help that Superman only had 43 lines in the theatrical release. Batman was supposed to be a realistic portrayal of someone who is burnt out after years of dealing with the worst criminals ever, who can only see the danger in Superman. But instead he came off as a cynical edgy take who is ready to kill someone until he learns their moms had the same name. The version of Luthor annoyed most viewers, and the plot felt convoluted. While the uncut version may fix some plot holes, it did not change the themes or characterization. While BvS is a much more complex and ambitious movie, most critics and viewers did not feel it work as an overall movie.

Birds of prey was a flop. Financially, its also blah and is average. It didnt reach for much and comes off tv movie ish... im actually watching it for the second time... feels even less compelling. Personally I think even the theatrical cut of Suicide squad offers more... tho that 3rd act isnt strong..... but each to their own. If you like it all the power too you...also Montoyas characterization was a travesty...

I prayer for the ayer cut. And I have a lot of faith in The Suicide Squad and James! I think Harley will finally be featured in an outstanding block buster film. I think me and you can a least agree on that! Right?

Bvs... i agree Superman is not characterized as I view him traditionally

BUT since Snyder had long game plan with MoS, BVS and JL 1 and 2 I really think he wanted a real arc that gave us an a b c d style story...

Yah in mos and bvs superman doesnt feel like superman, but .... and Batman is cynical and clearly a bit insane.. but this is clearly an alternate DC universe. One with an older weathered batman inspired by the DKR, which is also alternate universe.

And while Batman is seasoned, superman is some what a uncertain rookie.

Ben is 48. Cavil is 37. Today. During filming they would have been 4 or so years younger. The point is ben is over a decade older and in the film I get a sense hey is portrayed his age or older. Dick has been murdered. Batman has lost all fucks. He is warping into a killing machine... possibly Zack wanted to redeem batman at some point. Restore that one rule??? I dunno...

People wanted the movie to be a specific thing with characters that act the way we think they should act. Zack has turned it all on its head...

He wrote the story for wonder woman.

He had at one time his hands on many of these projects...

The studios couldnt stand to play the long game. Lost faith and started hacking all these projects up to mimic marvel movies.

I genuinely believe his 4 hour JL movie will finally put to rest if he had a game plan. From mos, bvs, wonder woman, flash etc...

Zack literally is and was linked to all these projects https://www.google.com/search?q=Zack...xQA44fd8dgAAAA

The studio just wasn't willing to build his world... and the meddling and cutting, editing made some of these movies unwatchable Frankensteins.

Also batman has a long history of killing in the films, and as well does it in comics https://www.cbr.com/every-comic-book...ills-in-order/

Bens batman is the one to many screws loose batman. He kills... but did he always? Can he reform and be redeemed?


Also the Martha things was very comic bookie imo

Also did your mother die at a young age?

My mom was diagnosed with cancer. I was 15. Her dying and death was horribly traumatic...

If I was beating the **** out of someone, prepared to kill them and they started pleading and calling out my mothers name... it would be very weird and make me pause...

Also he paused. It was lois lane that saved superman by laying in front of him. The explanation that superman had a mother. Wasnt just so super alien being...

It made bruce think...

I have no idea why this is so weird or hard for people to grasp

Bruce deals with degrees of psychosomatic trama, psychosis, identity issues, he is on some level mentally ill and unstable... he also does things that frequently go against the justice leagues directions or morals.

Bugging allies, omac, etc etc.

He's as wild a card as the joker in his behavior at least part of the time... he's vengeance. Let superman be hope and justice