Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[SiegePerilous02]

I think the style of story telling depending on subsequent films to bring merit to the present installment is too short sighted. Zack had a five film arc planned for his take on Superman specifically to come together, but there was never any guarantee future films would be made. And they didn't as he was pulled from JL, and while the Snyder Cut is happening there is no guarantee it will do any better reception wise or bring in the money to warrant more. Things apparently aren't looking to hot for HBO max either. The problem with the long game is he wasn't doing a good job with getting audiences invested with Superman now, so they didn't have the incentive to show up three more times on the off chance he would stick the landing and finally make them like the character. He had a divisive start and lost the room with the second film, the long game isn't going to be worth it. I hate to bring up the comparison, but the MCU was good at providing at least solid installments to get audiences to like their characters, powered through the growing pains, and got them invested with the Avengers, and then started doing the longer term arcs. Similarly, people fully embraced Wonder Woman after her one film in a way they didn't for Cavill's Superman after he had two.

It's not an alternate DC universe. For all intents and purposes, this was meant to be the main one because movies and other media supersedes the comics when it comes to reaching a wider audience and does the most to shape pop culture perception for better or worse. Since these characters have existed for 80 years both diehard fans and more importantly the casuals are going to have strong opinions on what these characters are like, and it's not really the audience's fault that Snyder was unable to both capture what they already like or introduce compelling new twists which they have proven they will accept if it's done well. Burton's Batman was a hit that didn't mesh with what they expected from Batman at the time (campy Adam West), but it was well done and entertaining and changed the game. Same deal with Nolan.

People are naturally inclined to like Batman, so it's not surprising that a movie that wants to convince us he's a villain didn't land. One who used to be a hero and isn't beyond redemption, but we don't know this version at all so all we get is the psycho. We are told, not shown. The movie kind of wants it both ways, it deflects criticism of of the characters by saying its a new take and we shouldn't let our preconceived notions get ahead of us, but also relies on us knowing who these characters are through previous version to do the heavy lifting of making us care.

[Menacer]

I think the style of story telling depending on subsequent films to bring merit to the present installment is too short sighted. Zack had a five film arc planned for his take on Superman specifically to come together, but there was never any guarantee future films would be made. And they didn't as he was pulled from JL, and while the Snyder Cut is happening there is no guarantee it will do any better reception wise or bring in the money to warrant more. Things apparently aren't looking to hot for HBO max either. The problem with the long game is he wasn't doing a good job with getting audiences invested with Superman now, so they didn't have the incentive to show up three more times on the off chance he would stick the landing and finally make them like the character. He had a divisive start and lost the room with the second film, the long game isn't going to be worth it. I hate to bring up the comparison, but the MCU was good at providing at least solid installments to get audiences to like their characters, powered through the growing pains, and got them invested with the Avengers, and then started doing the longer term arcs. Similarly, people fully embraced Wonder Woman after her one film in a way they didn't for Cavill's Superman after he had two.

It's not an alternate DC universe. For all intents and purposes, this was meant to be the main one because movies and other media supersedes the comics when it comes to reaching a wider audience and does the most to shape pop culture perception for better or worse. Since these characters have existed for 80 years both diehard fans and more importantly the casuals are going to have strong opinions on what these characters are like, and it's not really the audience's fault that Snyder was unable to both capture what they already like or introduce compelling new twists which they have proven they will accept if it's done well. Burton's Batman was a hit that didn't mesh with what they expected from Batman at the time (campy Adam West), but it was well done and entertaining and changed the game. Same deal with Nolan.

People are naturally inclined to like Batman, so it's not surprising that a movie that wants to convince us he's a villain didn't land. One who used to be a hero and isn't beyond redemption, but we don't know this version at all so all we get is the psycho. We are told, not shown. The movie kind of wants it both ways, it deflects criticism of of the characters by saying its a new take and we shouldn't let our preconceived notions get ahead of us, but also relies on us knowing who these characters are through previous version to do the heavy lifting of making us care.

Yah well good thorough response again...

Personally I could see Keaton and Ben's batman having a lot in common... both killers and both split down the middle, both psycho. BEN's bat was older, and robin was dead. The robin or a version of Robin that had aleady appeared in Batman Forever. Doesnt strike you a bit coincidental that Keaton and Ben are both appearing in flash???

Lets be honest, no one saw batman as the villian in BvS. Most of us want the human to overcome the god. This is standard in comics.

Hence why Cavill plays the character more morose...

Injustice is popular for a reason.

And jl even... at least the theatrical cut... prove bruce correctly. Superman returns as an evil monster who they must stop. Only this time bruce doesnt want to murder him.

The dots are there...

Also you keep suggesting these movies arent successful...

Both bvs and mos are on the top bluray dvd sales lists..


In an age of streaming that is doubly impressive..


The world cant stop talking about letos 4 min cameo

Snyder cut will land big... may not be what people expect though

Also why is HBO max in trouble?

[Arsenal]

What 4 min Leto cameo?

[j9ac9k]

Has Snyder ever made a movie so great as to lead people to think this will live up to all the expectations?

[Agent Z]

Has Snyder ever made a movie so great as to lead people to think this will live up to all the expectations?

It depends on if you liked his films or not.

[j9ac9k]

It depends on if you liked his films or not.

Right. He's always been a kinda niche genre director. I guess "300" was his biggest success, but it doesn't really hold up and it was certainly lacking in things like characterization and depth. He's known for style and for taking comic books very seriously, but the clamoring for his "vision" of JL was mostly based on disappointment of the movie that came out, so people started piling their hopes on the mythical "Snyder cut" more than people really thinking that he's an amazing auteur. I mean, for the most part... no?

[OrangeRangerPete]

It depends on if you liked his films or not.

Exactly. Snyder has a niche, like almost any accomplished storyteller.

Iconic shiny superheroes is most assuredly not that niche.

[SiegePerilous02]

Right. He's always been a kinda niche genre director. I guess "300" was his biggest success, but it doesn't really hold up and it was certainly lacking in things like characterization and depth. He's known for style and for taking comic books very seriously, but the clamoring for his "vision" of JL was mostly based on disappointment of the movie that came out, so people started piling their hopes on the mythical "Snyder cut" more than people really thinking that he's an amazing auteur. I mean, for the most part... no?

Probably his best film is the Dawn of the Dead remake, and I think James Gunn deserves a lot of credit for that for his screen play

[Castle]

Has Snyder ever made a movie so great as to lead people to think this will live up to all the expectations?

Watchmen. Man of Steel.

[Menacer]

What 4 min Leto cameo?

New footage filmed for Snyder cut Justice League

[williamtheday]

The BatGod is no mere human.

[Jokerz79]

Probably his best film is the Dawn of the Dead remake, and I think James Gunn deserves a lot of credit for that for his screen play

I agree with this and the Shame is for as good as it is it doesn't hold a candle to the original Dawn.

[WebLurker]

Birds of prey was a flop. Financially, its also blah and is average. It didnt reach for much and comes off tv movie ish... im actually watching it for the second time... feels even less compelling. Personally I think even the theatrical cut of Suicide squad offers more... tho that 3rd act isnt strong..... but each to their own. If you like it all the power too you...also Montoyas characterization was a travesty...

I prayer for the ayer cut. And I have a lot of faith in The Suicide Squad and James! I think Harley will finally be featured in an outstanding block buster film. I think me and you can a least agree on that! Right?

Personally, I think Birds of Prey and Wonder Woman are the best we've seen out of DC to date (although I have the proverbial good feelings about Wonder Woman 1984 and the James Patterson Batman movie), but, of the "bad" DCEU movies, I did find Suicide Squad the most enjoyable. Only saw the extended edition (think I accidentally threw out my BluRay copy and wish I hadn't, even if I still have the digital download) and I agree that it has issues, but it was fun and I got engaged in the characters (would still like a Katana spinoff). Of all the bad DCEU movies, it's the only one that I'd like to see again (only reason I'd rewatch BvS or Justice League was if I was marathoning the DCEU for some reason).

Guess I don't need an Ayer cut (think it played better when it was trying to be a black comedy/action movie instead of a serious drama), but can't say I have a problem with it if they make it. I do agree that James Gunn directing the Suicide Squad sequel/reboot/whatever sounds great. Not too worried about Margo Robbie's DC career, through; she's managed to be the best thing in all her movies. Even people who don't like Suicide Squad or Birds of Prey seem willing to think she did a good job.

Bvs... i agree Superman is not characterized as I view him traditionally

BUT since Snyder had long game plan with MoS, BVS and JL 1 and 2 I really think he wanted a real arc that gave us an a b c d style story...

Yah in mos and bvs superman doesnt feel like superman, but .... and Batman is cynical and clearly a bit insane.. but this is clearly an alternate DC universe. One with an older weathered batman inspired by the DKR, which is also alternate universe.

And while Batman is seasoned, superman is some what a uncertain rookie.

Ben is 48. Cavil is 37. Today. During filming they would have been 4 or so years younger. The point is ben is over a decade older and in the film I get a sense hey is portrayed his age or older. Dick has been murdered. Batman has lost all fucks. He is warping into a killing machine... possibly Zack wanted to redeem batman at some point. Restore that one rule??? I dunno...

People wanted the movie to be a specific thing with characters that act the way we think they should act. Zack has turned it all on its head...

Maybe it wasn't so much that people objected to a Superman and Batman that were not their classic characterizations in and of itself (I mean, the Injustice franchise, which is all about Superman becoming evil, is quite popular), but that DC was doing it right out of the gate for their mainstream cinematic universe, the thing that would be the primary depiction of these characters?

He wrote the story for wonder woman.

He had at one time his hands on many of these projects...

And only one was a total success...

The studios couldnt stand to play the long game. Lost faith and started hacking all these projects up to mimic marvel movies.

I genuinely believe his 4 hour JL movie will finally put to rest if he had a game plan. From mos, bvs, wonder woman, flash etc...

Zack literally is and was linked to all these projects https://www.google.com/search?q=Zack...xQA44fd8dgAAAA

The studio just wasn't willing to build his world... and the meddling and cutting, editing made some of these movies unwatchable Frankensteins.

That's a very interesting perspective, since I think trying to mimic modern day Marvel is what the was the downfall of the DCEU and the Snyder-verse era of it. Think about it; the MCU started with largely standalone stories with loose connections to the other films that introduced us to the characters and got us onboard, until the first Avengers movie brought it all together and built up the completely intertwined mega series we know it to be today.

In comparison, the DCEU tried to get to the intertwined installments first without building up a decent foundation for it. With the movies made under the Snyder-verse -- Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and the originally planned two-part Justice League -- DC's plan was basically comparable if the MCU had started with the first Iron Man, then did Captain America: Civil War, Guardians of the Galaxy (except not advancing the Infinity Saga story arc), Captain America: The First Avenger, and Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame (the final product was more along the lines of the first Avengers movie, but considering that Snyder wanted to expand on the Knightmare sequence and have the Justice League fight Darkseid as their starter villain, he was clearly imagining an epic along the lines of Infinity War/Endgame).

That's not a good plan and, as we saw, when DC tried to jump right into doing the MCU Phase Three, it didn't go over so well, while making Phase One-style one and dones have proven to allow them to make better films and more successful ones. As far as the Synder-verse itself goes, there may have been ways to do the darker tone well and follow his buildup to something big had everyone involved been patient enough to actually build up to it instead of wanting it right away. I don't know; I do think that the Snyder-verse and its vision were part of the DCEU's early problems, but anything can be done well under the right circumstances. Seeing that DC has found a winning formula with standalone and non-DCEU projects and seems to be quietly retconning the Snyder-verse from the DCEU (with the Wonder Woman sequel apparently ignoring her BvS and Justice League backstory as completely retiring after WWI, the New Suicide Squad being a different beast from its predecessor, and the Henry Cavill and Ben Affleck Superman and Batman being retired), maybe the Synder Cut is the last hurrah of the Snyder-verse before it goes the way of the Fox X-Men movies. Suppose there are worse ways to end.

Also batman has a long history of killing in the films, and as well does it in comics https://www.cbr.com/every-comic-book...ills-in-order/

Bens batman is the one to many screws loose batman. He kills... but did he always? Can he reform and be redeemed?

For what it's worth, I think Affleck played a good murderous Batman, if a murderous Batman was what he was given.

Also the Martha things was very comic bookie imo

Also did your mother die at a young age?

My mom was diagnosed with cancer. I was 15. Her dying and death was horribly traumatic...

If I was beating the shit out of someone, prepared to kill them and they started pleading and calling out my mothers name... it would be very weird and make me pause...

Also he paused. It was lois lane that saved superman by laying in front of him. The explanation that superman had a mother. Wasnt just so super alien being...

It made bruce think...

I have no idea why this is so weird or hard for people to grasp

The problem isn't the idea itself, but the execution of the idea.

Bruce deals with degrees of psychosomatic trama, psychosis, identity issues, he is on some level mentally ill and unstable... he also does things that frequently go against the justice leagues directions or morals.

Bugging allies, omac, etc etc.

He's as wild a card as the joker in his behavior at least part of the time... he's vengeance. Let superman be hope and justice

Seems to me like Batman, to borrow a Doctor Who line, is one of those people that you don't want to know why he has so many rules he holds himself to.

[Rincewind]

Birds of prey was a flop. Financially, its also blah and is average. It didnt reach for much and comes off tv movie ish... im actually watching it for the second time... feels even less compelling. Personally I think even the theatrical cut of Suicide squad offers more... tho that 3rd act isnt strong..... but each to their own. If you like it all the power too you...also Montoyas characterization was a travesty...

I prayer for the ayer cut. And I have a lot of faith in The Suicide Squad and James! I think Harley will finally be featured in an outstanding block buster film. I think me and you can a least agree on that! Right?

Bvs... i agree Superman is not characterized as I view him traditionally

BUT since Snyder had long game plan with MoS, BVS and JL 1 and 2 I really think he wanted a real arc that gave us an a b c d style story...

Yah in mos and bvs superman doesnt feel like superman, but .... and Batman is cynical and clearly a bit insane.. but this is clearly an alternate DC universe. One with an older weathered batman inspired by the DKR, which is also alternate universe.

And while Batman is seasoned, superman is some what a uncertain rookie.

Ben is 48. Cavil is 37. Today. During filming they would have been 4 or so years younger. The point is ben is over a decade older and in the film I get a sense hey is portrayed his age or older. Dick has been murdered. Batman has lost all fucks. He is warping into a killing machine... possibly Zack wanted to redeem batman at some point. Restore that one rule??? I dunno...

People wanted the movie to be a specific thing with characters that act the way we think they should act. Zack has turned it all on its head...

He wrote the story for wonder woman.

He had at one time his hands on many of these projects...

The studios couldnt stand to play the long game. Lost faith and started hacking all these projects up to mimic marvel movies.

I genuinely believe his 4 hour JL movie will finally put to rest if he had a game plan. From mos, bvs, wonder woman, flash etc...

Zack literally is and was linked to all these projects https://www.google.com/search?q=Zack...xQA44fd8dgAAAA

The studio just wasn't willing to build his world... and the meddling and cutting, editing made some of these movies unwatchable Frankensteins.

Also batman has a long history of killing in the films, and as well does it in comics https://www.cbr.com/every-comic-book...ills-in-order/

Bens batman is the one to many screws loose batman. He kills... but did he always? Can he reform and be redeemed?


Also the Martha things was very comic bookie imo

Also did your mother die at a young age?

My mom was diagnosed with cancer. I was 15. Her dying and death was horribly traumatic...

If I was beating the shit out of someone, prepared to kill them and they started pleading and calling out my mothers name... it would be very weird and make me pause...

Also he paused. It was lois lane that saved superman by laying in front of him. The explanation that superman had a mother. Wasnt just so super alien being...

It made bruce think...

I have no idea why this is so weird or hard for people to grasp

Bruce deals with degrees of psychosomatic trama, psychosis, identity issues, he is on some level mentally ill and unstable... he also does things that frequently go against the justice leagues directions or morals.

Bugging allies, omac, etc etc.

He's as wild a card as the joker in his behavior at least part of the time... he's vengeance. Let superman be hope and justice

BvS worked for you. Awesome. That puts you squarely in the 28% of critics who thought it was good. You didn't like BoP. That puts you in the 22% that didn't like BoP. You can argue the plot, themes, and character choices for BvS all day long, but it's not going to convince people who didn't enjoy the movie that they should enjoy the movie. And listing out every detail that I didn't like about BvS won't convince you that you didn't like it.

At the end of the day, people like different things. Sometimes you're in the minority opinion, sometimes most people agree with you.

[Menacer]

BvS worked for you. Awesome. That puts you squarely in the 28% of critics who thought it was good. You didn't like BoP. That puts you in the 22% that didn't like BoP. You can argue the plot, themes, and character choices for BvS all day long, but it's not going to convince people who didn't enjoy the movie that they should enjoy the movie. And listing out every detail that I didn't like about BvS won't convince you that you didn't like it.

At the end of the day, people like different things. Sometimes you're in the minority opinion, sometimes most people agree with you.

Bvs and mos both had huge box office and both were in top 50 all time dvd blu ray sales...

Its silly to ignore the fact these movies have huge fan base. Thats why snyder cut is happening. Period.

But your entitled to like bop. And i got no issue with it.

And I along with massive fan base will support snyders films.

Its all good