Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[Powerboy]

Heart of the Tony vs Snyder Superman difference is Tony is driven by guilt over colleterial damage from Iron Man 2008 where he saw his weapons killing American Soldiers to Civil War. While Snyder's Superman seems to care little about colleterial damage from his fights.

Also Joker made a billion dollars and wasn't close to an MCU film in tone and that's what I think is what is the key to success matching tone to character.

That too is true. Most of the audience had little knowledge of Iron-Man to have expectations. Joker was in tune with the character and what people expected. Dark Knight was very much what people expected of Batman. MoS was not what people expected of a Superman movie.

Joker making a fortune and WW being very critically acclaimed even with a lot of the subject matter being the horrors of WWI, you can't just explain away the success by saying audiences just want fluff.

[Castle]

I'd say the same thing when it comes to how often people exaggerate Man of Steel's "darkness". The movie wasn't anywhere near as grim as people say.

Like I said, "too dark and gritty" for superhero fans basically boils down to anything slightly more serious than a cartoon.



I rest my case.

The Darkness is certainly exaggerated. people only tend to associate a comic film to last comic film they saw and man of steel was next after Avengers 2012 that was basically a Disney sitcom movie. Maybe Man of Steel was too dark to that film but DC last film before that was the dark knight rises.

X-Men TAS couldn't even say death they had to say "Destroyed" and couldn't kill Jean or the D'Bari in the Dark Phoenix Saga. While Endgame killed Natasha and Tony and Shazam killed the Board in the Board room scene two of the more "Family Friendly" comic book films of 2019 were "Darker and Grittier" than X-Men TAS a serious I love but let's not pretend it was "Darker and Grittier" then it was.

So Endgame is competing with a Saturday money cartoon to define darkness? those cartoons were episodic. if I look at them as a collection they likely had ''darker moments'' than Endgame.

The Justice League Snyder CUT would be darker than Endgame, You should also know that killing off characters in finales does not really equate to dark. maybe endgame is not dark because the movie feels more like a cartoon and the plot is plain at best. the dark knight is dark not because of joker's antics but because its a more realistic done movie to endgame, something Nolan backed in man of steel as a producer. I used to say this to anyone who still was complaining that superman killed Zod. yes he rightfully did in self defence.

All the unnecessary supposedly mess of DCU would not have happened if critics and some people never pretended man of steel was so dark and grim when it wasn't.

[Thezmage]

So Endgame is competing with a Saturday money cartoon to define darkness?

You're the one who brought it up.

those cartoons were episodic. if I look at them as a collection they likely had ''darker moments'' than Endgame.

No, they really don't.

The Justice League Snyder CUT would be darker than Endgame, You should also know that killing off characters in finales does not really equate to dark. maybe endgame is not dark because the movie feels more like a cartoon and the plot is plain at best. the dark knight is dark not because of joker's antics but because its a more realistic done movie to endgame, something Nolan backed in man of steel as a producer. I used to say this to anyone who still was complaining that superman killed Zod. yes he rightfully did in self defence.

All the unnecessary supposedly mess of DCU would not have happened if critics and some people never pretended man of steel was so dark and grim when it wasn't.

Your definition of "dark" fluctuates so wildly that there is just no common understanding necessary to have a conversation. Dark is not an indication of quality one way or the other.

And The Dark Knight was not more realistic than Endgame. Pretty much everybody had to act like idiots to make the Joker look smart

[juan678]

[Castle]

You're the one who brought it up.

justice league on paper is DC's Avengers. Snyder obviously can do more from watching 300, man of steel and watchmen.

No, they really don't.

Yes they did.

The Legacy virus and Poetus episodes were darker than Endgame.

Your definition of "dark" fluctuates so wildly that there is just no common understanding necessary to have a conversation. Dark is not an indication of quality one way or the other.

Christopher Reeves Superman movies were not dark but they were of good quality. why people are so infatuated with dark is because dark expands more rooms to tell challenging stories. this is the one reason people are fascinated by darkness.

And The Dark Knight was not more realistic than Endgame. Pretty much everybody had to act like idiots to make the Joker look smart

the dark knight is a more realistic done movie than endgame and man of steel was a worthy successor to those type of comic films.

[Jokerz79]

The Darkness is certainly exaggerated. people only tend to associate a comic film to last comic film they saw and man of steel was next after Avengers 2012 that was basically a Disney sitcom movie. Maybe Man of Steel was too dark to that film but DC last film before that was the dark knight rises.




So Endgame is competing with a Saturday money cartoon to define darkness? those cartoons were episodic. if I look at them as a collection they likely had ''darker moments'' than Endgame.

The Justice League Snyder CUT would be darker than Endgame, You should also know that killing off characters in finales does not really equate to dark. maybe endgame is not dark because the movie feels more like a cartoon and the plot is plain at best. the dark knight is dark not because of joker's antics but because its a more realistic done movie to endgame, something Nolan backed in man of steel as a producer. I used to say this to anyone who still was complaining that superman killed Zod. yes he rightfully did in self defence.

All the unnecessary supposedly mess of DCU would not have happened if critics and some people never pretended man of steel was so dark and grim when it wasn't.

You made the comparison between X-Men TAS to Comic Book films of 2019 it was your argument not mine.

[Castle]

You made the comparison between X-Men TAS to Comic Book films of 2019 it was your argument not mine.

Agent Z made the comparison of Saturday morning cartoons to superhero movies. I added upon what he said by using Batman TAS, X-Men TAS and Justice League to debunk the dark and gritty complaints nonsense of movies. I don't know why you are singling out xmen tas. a series that is more beloved than any marvel movie series.

That too is true. Most of the audience had little knowledge of Iron-Man to have expectations. Joker was in tune with the character and what people expected. Dark Knight was very much what people expected of Batman. MoS was not what people expected of a Superman movie.

Joker making a fortune and WW being very critically acclaimed even with a lot of the subject matter being the horrors of WWI, you can't just explain away the success by saying audiences just want fluff.

if people genuinely do want to explain dark, they can start with the subject matter of the film. Who wouldn't have acted the way batman and the government did with Superman in dawn of justice. I can only understand a small percentage saying that was too dark.

Christopher Reeves superman was great but he was more of a fantasy. if you are going to evolve Superman stories on film, man of steel and dawn of justice was the best way to do things. Speaking of XMen, Snyder treated superman was one of those dangerous mutants with unlimited power that humans like batman and the government had the right to fear. Funny that some have cheered some xmen films for even taking this subject matter further and darker but Snyder was evil to do the same.

[Jokerz79]

That too is true. Most of the audience had little knowledge of Iron-Man to have expectations. Joker was in tune with the character and what people expected. Dark Knight was very much what people expected of Batman. MoS was not what people expected of a Superman movie.

Joker making a fortune and WW being very critically acclaimed even with a lot of the subject matter being the horrors of WWI, you can't just explain away the success by saying audiences just want fluff.

One of the benefits Batman has compared to Superman is he has been played to the mainstream in very different tones and styles compared to Supes who from Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, Dean Cain, Tom Wellling, and Brandon Routh was portrayed as the optimistic boy scout type so going against that grain goes against what many consider what Superman is and represents.

[Powerboy]

Agent Z made the comparison of Saturday morning cartoons to superhero movies. I added upon what he said by using Batman TAS, X-Men TAS and Justice League to debunk the dark and gritty complaints nonsense of movies. I don't know why you are singling out xmen tas. a series that is more beloved than any marvel movie series.




if people genuinely do want to explain dark, they can start with the subject matter of the film. Who wouldn't have acted the way batman and the government did with Superman in dawn of justice. I can only understand a small percentage saying that was too dark.

Christopher Reeves superman was great but he was more of a fantasy. if you are going to evolve Superman stories on film, man of steel and dawn of justice was the best way to do things. Speaking of XMen, Snyder treated superman was one of those dangerous mutants with unlimited power that humans like batman and the government had the right to fear. Funny that some have cheered some xmen films for even taking this subject matter further and darker but Snyder was evil to do the same.

Given the situation set up for B vs S, it mostly makes sense. That simply means lots of people didn't want that setup to begin with.

MoS is a Superman for our time. I'm not denying it. When we look at the things going on right now with a good part of the population up in arms over people that are not even a threat except in their minds, they are not going to happily accept an alien from another planet with the power of an Atomic bomb. While I do believe they screwed up on some things like his seeming lack of concern for collateral damage, I found him very inspirational because he was trying his best in a world that wasn't a four color world that was designed for him. Yes, the movie did better at making the point of an X-Men movie than the X-Men movies did.

I've never attacked the quality of MoS or B vs S. Well, okay, I have criticized what I thought were errors of execution but never the core idea of a more socially relevant and updated Superman. I think people do have very solid ideas of who he is and that he's more of an ideal for people than a character.

[Powerboy]

One of the benefits Batman has compared to Superman is he has been played to the mainstream in very different tones and styles compared to Supes who from Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, Dean Cain, Tom Wellling, and Brandon Routh was portrayed as the optimistic boy scout type so going against that grain goes against what many consider what Superman is and represents.

Okay but I perceive Henry Cavill's Superman as not a boy scout and certainly experiencing doubt but still optimistic and striving to do what's right and it's even more impressive in a world that doesn't exactly lend itself to optimism. I think it's more the world he is in that people dislike.

[godisawesome]

Okay but I perceive Henry Cavill's Superman as not a boy scout and certainly experiencing doubt but still optimistic and striving to do what's right and it's even more impressive in a world that doesn't exactly lend itself to optimism. I think it's more the world he is in that people dislike.

Thta’s how I see it, with the caveat that I see the world being much more critical and cynical in BvS, whereas I think a subplot of MOS was humanity quietly proving itself worthy of Superman.

The fishing crew watches out for him and wants to help at the rig, Lois buries the story she has on him out of respect for him, Smallville is heavily implied to have multiple people who know about Clark’s powers and kept their mouths shut when Zod demanded him, the military, while cautious and initially over-aggressive, eventually starts working in tandem with him and respects him in a genuine fashion, and even without him being present in their arc, Perry White and traditional @$$hole Steve Lombard refuse to abandon Jenny to the gravity wave and keep working to try and save her even when it would cost them their lives. Humanity has its jerks, but overall the film seems to imply that they are worthy enough for Clark’s trust. One of the reasons I kind of like the church scene in that movie is because it admits that Clark has good reason to doubt humanity, but can be convinced we’re still worth saving.

Jonathon Kent is honestly not just the biggest cynical, critical deconstructions element of the story, he’s arguably the only one that actually stands out in MOS.

The problem is that BvS has an awful lot more Pa Kents to go along with it’s Batman and Lex Luthor.

It’s a bit like MOS did the deconstruction/reconstruction move already, reinforcing the traditional reading of the story, but Snyder still felt a bit embarrassed and inadequate about it, and wanted to do it again, and harder this time. And given even his view of Batman seemed to share a similar insecurity about the Batman character’s remaining idealism, even though he’s clearly a massive DKR fan, it just kind of removed some of the hope that MOS already gave the franchise, leaving BvS with a more despairing and cynical concept that it then stumbled a bit on with the execution as well.

That my be the difference between a script written by David Goyer and a story crafted more by Zack Snyder.

I’d compare it to some of the debate about The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi regarding Rey and Finn. Fans of TFA who didn’t like TLJ generally felt she was already motivated and actualized by the story, as was Finn, and that TLJ made a grave error by acting as though she was still just a passive observer, and by seeming disengaged from both her visceral motivation from TFA and Finn’s overall character arc, marring their two-film stories With a cynicism and apathy that killed their appeal.

[rpmaluki]

Okay but I perceive Henry Cavill's Superman as not a boy scout and certainly experiencing doubt but still optimistic and striving to do what's right and it's even more impressive in a world that doesn't exactly lend itself to optimism. I think it's more the world he is in that people dislike.

This here! Henry's Superman is great. He has all the nuances I expect from the character but the world in which he exists let him down.

[Vakanai]

Henry might not have been the problem with those films, but I still want to move on to the next actor for Superman already.

[batnbreakfast]

Henry might not have been the problem with those films, but I still want to move on to the next actor for Superman already.

I want them to move on from all the characters Snyder/JL introduced. Its not like DC has only 5 good characters. *cough*Iron Man*cough*

[Cruelrain]

one pandemic at a time pls