Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBOmax in 2021!

[Ilan Preskovsky]

As I stated above, I think there is a definite point to Snyder's dark tone above and beyond that he thinks it's cool.

What if he deliberately gave us a dark world to show us the effect of Darkseid's machinations behind the scenes all along?

I remember there were Fourth World comics where characters just being in Darkseid's presence would make them feel hopeless. Darkseid basically radiated darkness that affected all around him.

I think, if that's the case in the Snyderverse, it could be interesting because it gives the heroes an internal struggle to overcome instead of just an external conflict that's solved by a well-placed punch in the nose.

If it turns out that Darkseid has been the CAUSE all along of the self-doubt and negativity the heroes have been experiencing -- as a way to limit their effectiveness against him before he fully reveals himself and his plans to conquer the universe -- it would be an interesting plot swerve and recontextualize all the previous films.

But that's the thing. I don't think he does anything other than because he think it looks cool. Actual darkness is a bad fit for the Justice League generally but if you do go for it, it has to have substance, it has to have a purpose. It can't just be grimdark for the sake of it. And for that, Snyder is definitely not your man. He's good at surface (if you really like sepia, at least) but he is an incredibly vacuous filmmaker with nothing of any substance to say. His Watchmen was case positive of this. He lifted whole sections of the comic and put them on screen but the underlying point of Watchmen? The substance? That went straight over his head.

What you're talking about is basically the opening of Final Crisis but Zack Snyder is no Grant Morrison. Worst of all, he clearly thinks he's Alan Moore but he's closer, in fact, to Rob Liefeld.

[j9ac9k]

...What you're talking about is basically the opening of Final Crisis but Zack Snyder is no Grant Morrison. Worst of all, he clearly thinks he's Alan Moore but he's closer, in fact, to Rob Liefeld.

[Powerboy]

Yeah, the fact that Superman in Justice League didn't make me want to hurl things at the screen is the reason why I like it more than either BVS or Man of Steel, despite being a much worse film.

Except that horrible Justice League clip is not in Whedon's style. Like, at all. It looks like what it is, a first draft of a Snyder film with jokey dialogue thrown in to make it, I don't know, "lighter"?

You know, for all of the supposed "darkness" of Snyder's DCEU, holy hell, do those costumes look naff! The comics-faithful costumes in the MCU look cool but these more "realistic" costumes just look so silly for a pretty simple reason: The self-seriousness of these things don't make the ridiculous (which is always a part of the superhero genre) look realistic, it just makes them look all the more ridiculous. Along with not getting Superman to a level that no one has not gotten Superman, Snyder's worst crime with these films is exactly that they have no sense of humour about themselves whatsoever. They're not just lame but embarrassingly lame in a way that even the slightest of the MCU films simply aren't.

Also, bloody hell, I forgot just how shonky the CGI was in Justice League. Show that clip to someone who knew nothing about these films and ask them what year they came out, I would be very surprised if they answered anything more recent than 2003.

Yeah. At this point, we're just beating the proverbial dead horse but the "realistic" costumes are a problem. You've got steroids powerlifter over-muscled Batman and my costume is now leather or lizard skin or something Superman and it's also grey because of the lenses. Wonder Woman's costume isn't exactly vibrant either but still better.

All of it pretty much what you said. Whedon's only crime was that he came in to do a few reshoots that altered the atmosphere Snyder created and maintained through the movies. I can see that irritating some people artistically. I don't even want to bash Snyder. I liked his version of Watchmen. Even if someone doesn't agree, Snyder is still a person who lost someone dear to him and I have no wish to criticize his talents. But Superman is just the wrong character for his style.

Whedon gets Superman but had no time to do much. People who didn't like it harp on the Buffyesque jokes or the mustache. But the most significant things were that he took the time to stand there and talk to some kids and later hauled butt away from a big fight to rescue people and prevent fallout from the fight, one of the biggest criticisms of M o S. He even joked around. Whedon totally understood the failings of M o S and B v S. Had he been hired for the project from the start, all three movies would have been very different with characters that had depth (because the guy that did Buffy and Angel understands depth) but in a way that captured who the characters have been.

[Powerboy]

As I stated above, I think there is a definite point to Snyder's dark tone above and beyond that he thinks it's cool.

What if he deliberately gave us a dark world to show us the effect of Darkseid's machinations behind the scenes all along?

I remember there were Fourth World comics where characters just being in Darkseid's presence would make them feel hopeless. Darkseid basically radiated darkness that affected all around him.

I think, if that's the case in the Snyderverse, it could be interesting because it gives the heroes an internal struggle to overcome instead of just an external conflict that's solved by a well-placed punch in the nose.

If it turns out that Darkseid has been the CAUSE all along of the self-doubt and negativity the heroes have been experiencing -- as a way to limit their effectiveness against him before he fully reveals himself and his plans to conquer the universe -- it would be an interesting plot swerve and recontextualize all the previous films.

That could be true. The problem is that there's a movie that is depressing followed two or so years later by another movie that is even more depressing with maybe a hint at the end of why followed two years later by another movie. And this is for movie audiences, not DC/ Darkseid scholars. People don't care that they got a depressing Superman movie because of reasons not explained.

[Midvillian1322]

I think out of context away from the darker/too serious tone of the movie, the costumes look great.

Affleck's Batman would be easily the best looking Batman we've had on screen if not for the fact that he is in a movie trying to depress the hell out of you. But him in something that is straight up fantastical with some self aware camp like Burton's films? He'd be great.

Same with Wonder Woman. That's an excellent costume and you can take her serious very easily in her own films. Even in BvS where she is largely disconnected from all the way too serious stuff and just gets to breeze in and be awesome.

I loved all the costumes except Cyborg but the clip at the end of him changing too a smoother more comic accurate look was cool. Even Supermans darker suit wouldn't have bothered me if that world wasn't also seen through a grey filter. Batman looked great except for the fact Afflek got huge and then they still felt the need to put padding in there and make him look like a body builder.I woulda been down watching a Snyder Batman film as long as he didn't write the script,let Afflek write it and Sndyer direct. The warehouse scene and the costume were great. I'll leave the rest of the choices alone. Snyders better movies were either written by someone else(Dawn of the dead) or following a source material story closely rather then making his own.


Edit: oh I hated the Flash Costume. So yea but loved the rest.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Yeah, the fact that Superman in Justice League didn't make me want to hurl things at the screen is the reason why I like it more than either BVS or Man of Steel, despite being a much worse film.

Agreed. What I didn't like as how he made the rest of the League redundant.

Except that horrible Justice League clip is not in Whedon's style. Like, at all. It looks like what it is, a first draft of a Snyder film with jokey dialogue thrown in to make it, I don't know, "lighter"?

Whedon's able to tap more into Snyder's style in the movie, but I'd be surprised if Whedon didn't make that scene. Aquaman was emotional, vulnerable and comical in a humanising form Whedon does - I don't think Snyder goes for that sort of humor. Whedon's has self awareness and knows it's a silly romp instead of a pretentious art class.

Also, bloody hell, I forgot just how shonky the CGI was in Justice League. Show that clip to someone who knew nothing about these films and ask them what year they came out, I would be very surprised if they answered anything more recent than 2003.

LOL Yeah. Snyder's original design for Steppenwolf may be dialled into 90's edge but I think it is more fitting rather than an embarrassment.

[XPac]

Agreed. What I didn't like as how he made the rest of the League redundant.



Whedon's able to tap more into Snyder's style in the movie, but I'd be surprised if Whedon didn't make that scene. Aquaman was emotional, vulnerable and comical in a humanising form Whedon does - I don't think Snyder goes for that sort of humor. Whedon's has self awareness and knows it's a silly romp instead of a pretentious art class.



LOL Yeah. Snyder's original design for Steppenwolf may be dialled into 90's edge but I think it is more fitting rather than an embarrassment.

The thing is, in a lot of ways Superman if written properly SHOULD in many cases make the rest of the League redundant. This version of the League at least.

He's as fast as the Flash, stronger than Wonder Woman and Aquaman, and probably have more offensive fire power than Cyborg or Batman. IF they had Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter it would be easier to argue there are things others can do that he can't do as well... but with this version at least IF he's written to his full potential he frankly SHOULD make the rest feel redundant to SOME degree in a straight fight situation. Because he's Superman, that's arguably how he should be written.

I think that's even more important to establish in what was supposed to be the first Justice League movie, since they seemingly were setting up a heel turn for him. If he were to end up on team Darkseid like some of those earlier Batman visions established, the League would be really screwed.

[Midvillian1322]

The thing is, in a lot of ways Superman if written properly SHOULD in many cases make the rest of the League redundant. This version of the League at least.

He's as fast as the Flash, stronger than Wonder Woman and Aquaman, and probably have more offensive fire power than Cyborg or Batman. IF they had Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter it would be easier to argue there are things others can do that he can't do as well... but with this version at least IF he's written to his full potential he frankly SHOULD make the rest feel redundant to SOME degree in a straight fight situation. Because he's Superman, that's arguably how he should be written.

I think that's even more important to establish in what was supposed to be the first Justice League movie, since they seemingly were setting up a heel turn for him. If he were to end up on team Darkseid like some of those earlier Batman visions established, the League would be really screwed.

Yea Martian Manhunter is the only main justice leaguer I ever thought who wasn't inferior to Superman. But while Superman is someone who's always holding back, The nature of Jonn as a character makes him hold back even more. Batmans tactical mind I guess is also very important. But Superman can do almost everything else better then everyone else. Only way around that would be the build up the fact he does hold back. But Snyder had supes unleash all over metropolis in the first movie.

[RockyHorror]

This is contrary to popular comic book opinion, but if Superman is really written correctly he needs all kinds of help. He's not terribly smart, scientifically), he can bleed with the explosion of a large enough bomb (No, not atomic level), he's not terribly fast and he can't fly, just jump around like Hulk.

Give me a Superman movie set in 1940 with his power set at the time any day.

[Blind Wedjat]

Cyborg's look is always gonna be terrible as long as he's just half a human head. I really don't know who's idea that was, but it looks bad and will always look bad.

Seriously: your one black superhero in your film is only half a head. Ray Fisher seems to be so mad about Whedon's changes to his character but I can't believe he didn't even suggest to Snyder that we should actually see more of his skin.

How hard was this to do?

[RockyHorror]

Of all the complaints about this movie and this character, this one just never seemed to occur to me as a thing. Really, you don't think this is a bit if s stretch?

[Guy_McNichts]

I appreciate Superman fans haven't had much luck in recent years with depictions of him. His movies have been pretty lukewarm, and in video game land you got crap like Injustice and the upcoming Suicide Squad. So understand how/why they'd be happy to see him put on a pedestal in Justice League.

I just wish it didn't come at the expense of Wonder Woman and the other heroes.

For me, Superman crushing the entire League single-handed, demolishing Steppenwolf with ease, "Is this guy still bothering you?"...it made me want to punch the screen. I legit don't remember the last time a movie made me that angry.
Why in the hell would I ever want to see a movie where Wonder Woman is rendered completely superfluous? Especially hot on the heels of her own film.

Superman can be the best and strongest and all that without pissing all over Diana and the other heroes. It's possible I'm sure.

And I don't mean saying "he holds back," which only makes it worse in my opinion. Superman "always holding back" is right there with Batman's "prep time" as absolute wank.

If you can't figure out a way for Superman to exist alongside other heroes--some of whom are supposed to be the best and strongest in their own way--without nerfing him to hell or stomping all over them, then just don't do a shared universe. And this should apply for the comics, too.

The fact is they made a Justice League movie where the JUSTICE LEAGUE is utterly useless. And regardless of tone, and no matter how much or how little of Snyder's footage Whedon used, that core premise is the foundation of the story. It's baked into the film's DNA no matter the cut.

And based on what I've heard about Synder's vision...it's only going to be worse.
It seems pretty clear the through-line of his movies is that Superman is essentially objectivist Jesus and everyone else exists in relation to that. Which is a pretty poor interpretation of Superman and a slap in the face to the other heroes.

[SiegePerilous02]

I appreciate Superman fans haven't had much luck in recent years with depictions of him. His movies have been pretty lukewarm, and in video game land you got crap like Injustice and the upcoming Suicide Squad. So understand how/why they'd be happy to see him put on a pedestal in Justice League.

I just wish it didn't come at the expense of Wonder Woman and the other heroes.

For me, Superman crushing the entire League single-handed, demolishing Steppenwolf with ease, "Is this guy still bothering you?"...it made me want to punch the screen. I legit don't remember the last time a movie made me that angry.
Why in the hell would I ever want to see a movie where Wonder Woman is rendered completely superfluous? Especially hot on the heels of her own film.

Superman can be the best and strongest and all that without pissing all over Diana and the other heroes. It's possible I'm sure.

And I don't mean saying "he holds back," which only makes it worse in my opinion. Superman "always holding back" is right there with Batman's "prep time" as absolute wank.

If you can't figure out a way for Superman to exist alongside other heroes--some of whom are supposed to be the best and strongest in their own way--without nerfing him to hell or stomping all over them, then just don't do a shared universe. And this should apply for the comics, too.

The fact is they made a Justice League movie where the JUSTICE LEAGUE is utterly useless. And regardless of tone, and no matter how much or how little of Snyder's footage Whedon used, that core premise is the foundation of the story. It's baked into the film's DNA no matter the cut.

And based on what I've heard about Synder's vision...it's only going to be worse.
It seems pretty clear the through-line of his movies is that Superman is essentially objectivist Jesus and everyone else exists in relation to that. Which is a pretty poor interpretation of Superman and a slap in the face to the other heroes.

It's really only at the expense of Wonder Woman, which is really bad enough. But it didn't do any long term damage to her brand either. Her's is still stronger than his as far as movies go.

It doesn't negatively impact any of the others though. Barry is a rookie who was ill prepared for dealing with a Kryptonian, and I'm sorry he always dwarfs the others present. Aside from Diana, that is exactly how a fight between a pissed off Superman and that specific JL lineup with no experience working with each other would go down. The notion that it wouldn't (again, aside from Wonder Woman) is the wank, not the other way around.

Had MM, a GL and Captain Marvel been on that team along with a fairly treated Wonder Woman and a more experienced Barry? We're looking at a different scenario. But no way are Cyborg or Batman ever in his league, and the amount of instances where Aquaman can hold his own against him are dwarfed by the instances of him not being on that tier along with popular perception.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Yea Martian Manhunter is the only main justice leaguer I ever thought who wasn't inferior to Superman. But while Superman is someone who's always holding back, The nature of Jonn as a character makes him hold back even more. Batmans tactical mind I guess is also very important. But Superman can do almost everything else better then everyone else. Only way around that would be the build up the fact he does hold back. But Snyder had supes unleash all over metropolis in the first movie.

Wonder Woman's had massive to the death fights with Superman and lived. For example, Rucka's run with Maxwell Lord brainwashing Superman so he thought he was fighting Doomsday. He's got an advantage over Diana but she gave as good as she got. And League Diana has far more experience than he does in the DCEU.

[basbash99]

The problem is that not only does Supes easily trounce Steppenwolf (where the rest of the League combined could not get the best of him), but also plays a critical role in separating the mother boxes AND trumps flash's efforts to rescue civilians. Feels like Cyborg should've been allowed to deal with the mother boxes by himself (and maybe get a power-up in the process, or at least gaining insight into controlling his powers that allowed him to help administer the coup de grace to Steppenwolf), and maybe once Supes starts helping the civilians Flash should've returned to the battle, overcome his fear of combat and given some superspeed momentum punch that allowed the other 3 to finish him off. iow you don't need supes to both put Steppenwolf on the ropes initially AND come back and finish him off.

That said, i did appreciate having a Superman who can crack a smile and make corny jokes. And i did enjoy the brief "evil superman" scene, especially the 'do you bleed' call back, followed by 'definitely bleeding somewhere'.