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  1. #76
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    IIRC, Pym was cleared because it wasn't actually him, but a Skrull? How convenient. Nothing happened to Tony or Reed as far as I know. But no one cares, because it was Bill Foster...and Bill Lives Don't Matter, right? At least I think that's the message that Marvel is conveying. I mean if it's the one thing that we've learned in both Civil War I and Civil War II, if you are a derivative Black Marvel character, you're as good as dead when these civil war events are launched. Place your bets now on who gets killed off when they hatch Civil War III. My money is on Blue Marvel...because they only see him as a black Superman clone.

    RIP Bill Foster. RIP War Machine. RIP Supreme Power Nighthawk; different event, but dead nonetheless.
    SP Nighthawk would still count, since Secret Empire was in great part the result of the fallout from Civil War II, the superhero community's chickens coming home to roost, as it were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I remember Riri showing up on Tony's side during the big fight for some reason and proceeding to do nothing in the actual battle but fly around...and then all the young heroes start singing her praises after said battle.

    Bendis really did not do a great job introducing her.

    Why is black Superheroes getting horrifically injured/killed such a staple of Civil War stories?
    Because they might be generally seen as the "more expendable" characters, whether by the creatives/editorial involved, or even by some segments of the fandom/readership. Come to think of it, Tom Foster was rightfully pissed off about how the Avengers just went on after getting back together in the aftermath of Dark Reign and Siege as if Tony Stark wasn't (partly) responsible for his Uncle Bill's death by way of creating Ragnarok/Clone Thor in the first place, and he got treated like the bad guy for it.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #77
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    The fact that they killed they biggest black guy they could find and buried him in chains in a story called Civil War shows a remarkable amount of tone deaf-ness.
    Last edited by Alan2099; 05-22-2020 at 05:09 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    The fact that they killed they biggest black guy they could find and buried him in chains in a story called Civil War shows a remarkable amount of tone deaf-ness.
    Well, that's Millar.

    I mean, from top to bottom, the story sucked.

    A story based on character, was driven by plot.

    They introduced a cloned Thor, because they wanted Marvel's trinity involved.

    Captain America became unable to influence public opinion, because reasons.

    So yeah. Great concept. If the execution would have been worse, I have no idea how.

    But the movie was f%%king amazing, so it balances

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    The fact that they killed they biggest black guy they could find and buried him in chains in a story called Civil War shows a remarkable amount of tone deaf-ness.
    I'm still not sure if that was Mark Millar just being himself (based on any manner of his edginess) with that writing or he really didn't think that through. That being said, how'd nobody at Marvel Editorial or even the artists look at that and think that was okay? It's not a good look in either case.
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  5. #80
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    I'm still not sure if that was Mark Millar just being himself (based on any manner of his edginess) with that writing or he really didn't think that through. That being said, how'd nobody at Marvel Editorial or even the artists look at that and think that was okay? It's not a good look in either case.
    It gets even worse when you see what they had to do with the body, since they couldn't shrink him down. It was awful.

  6. #81
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Really distasteful. As a black man, that was not cool.
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It gets even worse when you see what they had to do with the body, since they couldn't shrink him down. It was awful.
    Going deeper there's a comment (I think Iron man?) makes about Clor acting as a cop. So they killed the black guy in Civil War, bury him in chains, can't figure out how to or refuse to shrink him down, and they all got off on it and even got promotions. It's a really bad look and time has only made it look worse.
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  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I don't know, but now when you put it that way, it's kind of disturbing. Marvel have really not thought through the mixed messages they're sending with these "civil war" events.
    I applaud you for being much kinder than I am on the subject. I absolutely think that they thought it through and had some idea of how the audience would receive these deaths. They have frequent meetings during these major events, if for no other reason than to provide updates, seek guidance on direction and continuity, and use the team as a sounding board for story progression and downstream impact. Maybe if they had killed off 3 A-Listers permanently, or 3 members of the LGBTQIA+ community in as many events there would be more outrage?

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Going deeper there's a comment (I think Iron man?) makes about Clor acting as a cop. So they killed the black guy in Civil War, bury him in chains, can't figure out how to or refuse to shrink him down, and they all got off on it and even got promotions. It's a really bad look and time has only made it look worse.
    Don't forget the part about Ragnarok being the instrument of murder. It's not a coincidence that in later renderings the character looks more and more like a skinhead God of Thunder. You can't make this sh** up, even in a world of make believe.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Come to think of it, Tom Foster was rightfully pissed off about how the Avengers just went on after getting back together in the aftermath of Dark Reign and Siege as if Tony Stark wasn't (partly) responsible for his Uncle Bill's death by way of creating Ragnarok/Clone Thor in the first place, and he got treated like the bad guy for it.
    Piggybacking on the ongoing Marvel mantle thread, well, here's a missed opportunity. Tom Foster, the new Spirit of Vengeance, infused by Zarathos with all of the powers of the Ghost Rider and seeking the heads of Tony Stark, Reed Richards and anyone else who had a hand in his uncle's death. Hmm...the Gatlin Gun came to prominence during the Civil War, didn't it? Think I'll draw me a Gatlin Gun toting Tom Foster-esque Ghost Rider. Just call him "Chopper" for short.

  11. #86
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    So they killed the black guy in Civil War, bury him in chains, can't figure out how to or refuse to shrink him down,
    That part also always bothered me.

    They had Hank Pym on their side. His whole deal is shrinking things. He used to carry around an entire laboratory, and vehicles in his pockets.

    Him not being able to figure out how to shrink a guy, specifically a guy that uses his own technology, is like having a story with Punisher where he doesn't know how to shoot a mob boss.

    Plus in the same story you're telling me Hank helped clone a God and make him into a cyborg, so you're not trying to tell me he's an idiot.

  12. #87
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Piggybacking on the ongoing Marvel mantle thread, well, here's a missed opportunity. Tom Foster, the new Spirit of Vengeance, infused by Zarathos with all of the powers of the Ghost Rider and seeking the heads of Tony Stark, Reed Richards and anyone else who had a hand in his uncle's death. Hmm...the Gatlin Gun came to prominence during the Civil War, didn't it? Think I'll draw me a Gatlin Gun toting Tom Foster-esque Ghost Rider. Just call him "Chopper" for short.
    That would be pretty cool to see, I'll admit.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #88
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    That part also always bothered me.

    They had Hank Pym on their side. His whole deal is shrinking things. He used to carry around an entire laboratory, and vehicles in his pockets.

    Him not being able to figure out how to shrink a guy, specifically a guy that uses his own technology, is like having a story with Punisher where he doesn't know how to shoot a mob boss.

    Plus in the same story you're telling me Hank helped clone a God and make him into a cyborg, so you're not trying to tell me he's an idiot.
    For the record, this was Skrull Pym we're talking about here, so he technically had an excuse not to bother since he really didn't care, but it would've been out-of-character for the real Hank to act that way, especially since Bill was one of his closest friends.

    How did nobody put two-and-two together? Well, it was a very OOC period of Marvel comics...

  14. #89
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    For the record, this was Skrull Pym we're talking about here, so he technically had an excuse not to bother since he really didn't care, but it would've been out-of-character for the real Hank to act that way, especially since Bill was one of his closest friends.

    How did nobody put two-and-two together? Well, it was a very OOC period of Marvel comics...
    I'm wondering if it was even planned that Hank would be a skrull at the time.

  15. #90
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I'm wondering if it was even planned that Hank would be a skrull at the time.
    I think that probably depends on how long Bendis was planning Secret Invasion, did he have it mapped out which major Skrulls were who by the time of Civil War?

    Just like you wonder if it was intentional to have the heroes start to fall over themselves and sully their reputation, including in Civil War II, to set up them hitting rock bottom and having to raise themselves up during Secret Empire.

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