Was Civil War 2 a necessary event?

[Huntsman Spider]

Secret Wars?

Yeah, at least Secret Wars began with the total destruction/collapse of the multiverse and ended with the reconstruction of said multiverse.

[The Cool Thatguy]

My thoughts from the first discussion with minor edits

The misdirection was on us, the readers, in that somehow using Ulysses' visions were/are unethical. They did that by having Carol reacting to every major situation by immediately punching it in the face, instead of investigating the situation with the dozens of professional heroes at her disposal.

I still think that Bendis watched an episode of Person of Interest, and tried to make it Civil War 2. In the show, the good guys are aided by an AI that can literally see everything, and tips the heroes off to crimes in progress but doesn't give them exact information. Even so, it's treated as the massive civil rights violation that it is (as the AI listens to everything. Literally everything) and a powerful tool with endless potential for abuse.

But, Bendis, being Bendis, has little ability to apply superhero concepts to the modern world via metaphor. Ulysses' visions aren't profiling because they only apply to one specific person or situation, at random. At the worst, they're tips that are questionably reliable.

Stark, being a 'futurist', said his main objection was how the visions might be abused in the future, but what form is that supposed to take, exactly? Ulysses' visions are broadcasted, so it's not one person saying "Ulysses' said this...!" Never mind that Ulysses himself could vet the visions, and again, he has no control over them.

Yes, Hydra Cap manipulated one vision, but the manner in which he did was basically 'Banner is gonna Hulk'. Not exactly a Xanatos level move, and it would have amounted to nothing if Carol hadn't brought a damn army to confront Banner.

Without an idiot ball glued to Carol's hand, Ulysses would have just been a plot devise to punch people eventually, no ethical questions posed.

[Tofali]

Yeah, agreed.

Which frankly, is odd as Carol was in the right. If they have someone who can predict the future, then they should use them. Bendis tried to frame it as racial profiling, but 1) That doesn't work as you can only profile an ethnic group and 2) he also wrote it as the only possible response to the guy's visions was immediate punching.

Wasn't Bendis making a commentary on championing of predictive investigative tools and its weakness? There was nothing right about what Carol did.

[your_name_here]

Yeah, at least Secret Wars began with the total destruction/collapse of the multiverse and ended with the reconstruction of said multiverse.

Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic? Can never tell on the internet lol

[Frontier]

It is my honest and true belief that the Banner/Barton collusion and the machinations of Hydra Supreme should have been the true focus of the story's last act and not inelegant fight scenes. I would put forth that witnessing Stark standing alongside the alternative Rogers to face Danvers as their allies gathered was the last exciting sequence in the piece, immediately prior to the beginning of the aformentioned inelegant fighting.

Still relies on the heroes acting like idiots and Clint acting completely out-of-character.

Minor disagreement. It was about the Accords, that interfered with Cap's ability to help Bucky

Yeah, but the main thrust of the conflict was whether Bucky was innocent or not, not that Team Cap hadn't signed the Accords.

[JudicatorPrime]

Not only was it not necessary, but I'm waiting for some writer to establish that it never happened.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Wasn't Bendis making a commentary on championing of predictive investigative tools and its weakness? There was nothing right about what Carol did.

There was nothing right in *how* she did what she did.

Again, Bendis, and a lot of Minority Report writers, act as if there's ever only one solution to predictions. Carol had access to a good deal of resources. She didn't have to go in guns blazing, and yet that's all she did, far beyond PIS, frankly.

[Orbus]

Civil War II was about as necessary as any other event.

I was kinda rooting for it. Marquez's art was great and the opening few issues presented an interesting set up. The fact that precogs had existed in the Marvel Universe already and they'd never actually done a story like this is what intrigued me. Minority Report with Marvel characters sounds intruguing.

I hated the whole attitude of people who dismissed the whole thing right out the gate in the first few months it seems a lot of criticisms were of nitpicky things or from people who didn't even read the event but were mad at things they'd read about it. Then the criticisms did make sense to me; it was the killing of Banner by Hawkeye. It was clearly supposed to be a commentary on police shootings which is a fine enough thing to comment on but it almost negates the entire thing when he instantly added that it was also part of a mercy killing deal the two of them had. I appreciate Bendis didn't want Clint to come off as a total villain but then why choose him for this at all? It could have been Old Man Logan (who has knows how dangerous the Hulk can be for the world) or The Punisher that could have killed him.

The story and the repercussions it had on Carol Danvers who at that point was doing decently at the time was sad. Making her the 'villain' of story seems questionable but I remember Stark was the villain of the original Civil War and it it strangely seemed to up his standing with in the industry and I wonder of they thought the same would happen with Carol. If so it was a massive miscalculation even if her motivations and actions made sense in the story and were less harsh than the things Stark did in the original.

The real slap in the face though is that it didn't go anywhere. I thought for sure that some of Ulysses' visions were being fed to him by some outside force trying to cause trouble. The visions he got that everyone experienced too were always the most traumatic ones and always had him with ominous red and black eyes but nope he just evolved and conveniently teased a bunch of other storylines and events before he went.

So yeah it ended up as a disappointment but it had potential. Shame how it turned out.

[JudicatorPrime]

The funny thing about CW2 is that I kept wanting for Marvel to feature the Ultimates in one of the big events. In most of the previous events the Ultimates were either not included, or were so far out on the periphery that they may as well not have been mentioned at all. But then came CW2 and I immediately regretted that the Ultimates had to be involved, mainly because of Carol. From that moment on I felt that Marvel was doing everything in its power to torpedo my hopes and dreams.

[Frontier]

I was kinda rooting for it. Marquez's art was great and the opening few issues presented an interesting set up. The fact that precogs had existed in the Marvel Universe already and they'd never actually done a story like this is what intrigued me. Minority Report with Marvel characters sounds intruguing.

Marquez' art was probably the most universally redeeming element of the whole story.

I hated the whole attitude of people who dismissed the whole thing right out the gate in the first few months it seems a lot of criticisms were of nitpicky things or from people who didn't even read the event but were mad at things they'd read about it. Then the criticisms did make sense to me; it was the killing of Banner by Hawkeye. It was clearly supposed to be a commentary on police shootings which is a fine enough thing to comment on but it almost negates the entire thing when he instantly added that it was also part of a mercy killing deal the two of them had. I appreciate Bendis didn't want Clint to come off as a total villain but then why choose him for this at all? It could have been Old Man Logan (who has knows how dangerous the Hulk can be for the world) or The Punisher that could have killed him.

Better them then turning Clint Barton into a murderer who got away with it.

The story and the repercussions it had on Carol Danvers who at that point was doing decently at the time was sad. Making her the 'villain' of story seems questionable but I remember Stark was the villain of the original Civil War and it it strangely seemed to up his standing with in the industry and I wonder of they thought the same would happen with Carol. If so it was a massive miscalculation even if her motivations and actions made sense in the story and were less harsh than the things Stark did in the original.

That was more the Iron Man movie then the event in my opinion. It was only really around then that they seemed to be really trying to move the character past his more hostile and antagonistic persona crafted during Civil War.

[Huntsman Spider]

Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic? Can never tell on the internet lol

Yes, somewhat. Heh.

Civil War II was about as necessary as any other event.

I was kinda rooting for it. Marquez's art was great and the opening few issues presented an interesting set up. The fact that precogs had existed in the Marvel Universe already and they'd never actually done a story like this is what intrigued me. Minority Report with Marvel characters sounds intruguing.

I hated the whole attitude of people who dismissed the whole thing right out the gate in the first few months it seems a lot of criticisms were of nitpicky things or from people who didn't even read the event but were mad at things they'd read about it. Then the criticisms did make sense to me; it was the killing of Banner by Hawkeye. It was clearly supposed to be a commentary on police shootings which is a fine enough thing to comment on but it almost negates the entire thing when he instantly added that it was also part of a mercy killing deal the two of them had. I appreciate Bendis didn't want Clint to come off as a total villain but then why choose him for this at all? It could have been Old Man Logan (who has knows how dangerous the Hulk can be for the world) or The Punisher that could have killed him.

The story and the repercussions it had on Carol Danvers who at that point was doing decently at the time was sad. Making her the 'villain' of story seems questionable but I remember Stark was the villain of the original Civil War and it it strangely seemed to up his standing with in the industry and I wonder of they thought the same would happen with Carol. If so it was a massive miscalculation even if her motivations and actions made sense in the story and were less harsh than the things Stark did in the original.

The real slap in the face though is that it didn't go anywhere. I thought for sure that some of Ulysses' visions were being fed to him by some outside force trying to cause trouble. The visions he got that everyone experienced too were always the most traumatic ones and always had him with ominous red and black eyes but nope he just evolved and conveniently teased a bunch of other storylines and events before he went.

So yeah it ended up as a disappointment but it had potential. Shame how it turned out.

Generally agreed, although I did come to appreciate it somewhat more as a steppingstone to Secret Empire, laying out the character flaws and moral failure of the superhero community that gave context and reason to HYDRA-Cap's (nearly successful) machinations against them and HYDRA's takeover of the United States being welcomed by some sections of the public.

Marquez' art was probably the most universally redeeming element of the whole story.

Better them then turning Clint Barton into a murderer who got away with it.

That was more the Iron Man movie then the event in my opinion. It was only really around then that they seemed to be really trying to move the character past his more hostile and antagonistic persona crafted during Civil War.

Iron Man also had the benefit of his movie coming out one year after the conclusion of the original Civil War, whereas Captain Marvel had to wait three years after Civil War II for hers, and by that point, the backlash against her was practically dyed in the wool.

[Mr_E_88]

If everyone was acting in-character Ragnarok would not exist and Bill Foster would still be alive.

Wasn't Ragnarok a prophesy?

It would have happened regardless of what the result of a human conflict was, unless destiny and fate changing was involved Ragnarok was going to happen either way.

And as for Foster, she died because of cancer and not even the power of Thor could have cured her. And while I love Foster's Thor it, made no sense and sent Odinson into a maze that wasn't necessary.....but that's a different topic.

[Mr_E_88]

As the audience of the fictional material who are intimately familiar with the characters (as well as being only truly concerned with the characters) and are assured in the general safety of their continued existences, we are inherently conditioned to oppose stances like Pro-Registration or Pro-Ulysses as we know what the real current threats are and where the lines are drawn. Despite the fact that in the Marvel Universe, where threats and cataclysms come rapidly and from random sources, ideas like these pro-security measures could easily be viewed as the more prudent methods of preventing incidents, and would gain strong support in our world if we found ourselves in similar predicaments.

I agree with your statement to an extent. True as human, we want to be free and not restricted, safe but not controlled and I think this is one of the thing that the first Civil War aimed for, superheroes want to protect others but also they want to have the freedom to protect their loved ones by protecting their identity. And when the law forced the registration, a conflict was created in the superhero community, do we give our right to hide ourselves and thus protecting our family or do we fight for it?

And I think the same thing will happen if guys like Stark or Richards were real, if they democratically protected us they will be seen as heroes, but if they acted like how the Pro registration team acted then they might be seen as forces who suppress the freedom of society.

[Blind Wedjat]

The only thing I enjoyed about it was Hydra Cap before Secret Empire. Spencer's run on that was so much fun to read in my opinion.

Civil War II just felt like cheap shock value drama to me though.

[FreshGuy]

It is definitely not pointless. It is one of my favourite ever Marvel events. It was well written and executed and a very entertaining story. I am still working my way through the spin-offs and tie-ins to get an even richer experience but I thoroughly enjoyed it and I am totally team Carol.

I like that both side raised good points though, it made for an interesting story.