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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Better them then turning Clint Barton into a murderer who got away with it.
    Why did it have to be Clint Barton at all? There are other characters that are much more willing to use lethal force and it's not like Clint had even been in the story for more than a few panels at that point so it did come out of nowhere.

    If Bendis felt that it just had to be Hawkeye for the shock factor of a good upstanding hero not known to be okay with lethal force then I think he should have had the courage of his convictions to make him Banner's killer without a cop out for fans to argue that he's not really a murderer. There are ways to make him more sympathetic, maybe in the vision we see that someone Clint cares about is killed by The Hulk or that while everyone seemed to be dead he particularly died in gruesome circumstances which affected his thinking when he and the others went to confront Banner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Generally agreed, although I did come to appreciate it somewhat more as a steppingstone to Secret Empire, laying out the character flaws and moral failure of the superhero community that gave context and reason to HYDRA-Cap's (nearly successful) machinations against them and HYDRA's takeover of the United States being welcomed by some sections of the public.
    I don't know if that was Bendis' intentions when he started but it definitely benefited from the Hydra-Cap story brewing the background of other books. What I found kinda cool is his actions in the main book could easily be read as real Steve is you unaware of the Hydra-Cap story his actions and words work very well as classic Captain America but if you are aware of Stevil and the whole Hydra-Cap story line everything he does comes across as deliciously manipulative.
    Last edited by Orbus; 05-22-2020 at 03:45 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_E_88 View Post
    Wasn't Ragnarok a prophesy?

    It would have happened regardless of what the result of a human conflict was, unless destiny and fate changing was involved Ragnarok was going to happen either way.

    And as for Foster, she died because of cancer and not even the power of Thor could have cured her. And while I love Foster's Thor it, made no sense and sent Odinson into a maze that wasn't necessary.....but that's a different topic.
    Ragnarok is the name given to Civil War's Thor clone, and they're talking about Bill Foster, not Jane

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, at least Secret Wars began with the total destruction/collapse of the multiverse and ended with the reconstruction of said multiverse.
    Yeah, but aside from Miles being in the main universe now, was there really any long-lasting changes?
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  4. #49
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    Secret wars is better seen as the conclusion to Hickman's run on the FF, and Avengers.

    Furthermore it did have consequences to the cosmic order explored in Ewing's Ultimates

  5. #50
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    Nothing is long lasting in comics. Secret Wars a conclusion of everything Hickman had done beforehand.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    There was nothing right in *how* she did what she did.

    Again, Bendis, and a lot of Minority Report writers, act as if there's ever only one solution to predictions. Carol had access to a good deal of resources. She didn't have to go in guns blazing, and yet that's all she did, far beyond PIS, frankly.
    Hell, it's not like Carol is the first person in the Marvel universe to use precogs or someone/something with knowledge of the future to prevent incoming disasters.

  7. #52
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    carol was a precog in the classic 70s herself and would use the visions to help out the avengers and other people

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Nothing is long lasting in comics. Secret Wars a conclusion of everything Hickman had done beforehand.
    I get that. But it was marketed as a line-wide event and impacted books other than what Hickman did while it was going on. If you were a Hickman fan and read what he did then, yeah, it had a point. If you didn't then not really. it could have just been another arc in the Avengers books he was doing and would have had the same outcome.

    I mean, take the original Civil War. Did the outcome last forever? No. But it impacted the Marvel Universe for years with stuff like Cap being killed, Dark Reign, Marvel's "trinity" being split, etc. I don't see where Secret Wars did that.
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  9. #54
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    Why did it have to be Clint Barton at all? There are other characters that are much more willing to use lethal force and it's not like Clint had even been in the story for more than a few panels at that point so it did come out of nowhere.

    If Bendis felt that it just had to be Hawkeye for the shock factor of a good upstanding hero not known to be okay with lethal force then I think he should have had the courage of his convictions to make him Banner's killer without a cop out for fans to argue that he's not really a murderer. There are ways to make him more sympathetic, maybe in the vision we see that someone Clint cares about is killed by The Hulk or that while everyone seemed to be dead he particularly died in gruesome circumstances which affected his thinking when he and the others went to confront Banner.
    It wouldn't be the first time Bendis had written Clint a little wacky.
    I don't know if that was Bendis' intentions when he started but it definitely benefited from the Hydra-Cap story brewing the background of other books. What I found kinda cool is his actions in the main book could easily be read as real Steve is you unaware of the Hydra-Cap story his actions and words work very well as classic Captain America but if you are aware of Stevil and the whole Hydra-Cap story line everything he does comes across as deliciously manipulative.
    It worked better then SpOck being in AoU (outside the tie-in, it was obvious Bendis was just writing normal Spider-Man).

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Ragnarok is the name given to Civil War's Thor clone, and they're talking about Bill Foster, not Jane
    Oh...sorry, I misinterpreted that.

    Clone Thor was just Stark and Richard's arrogance, which is not strange since they and the rest of the illuminati tried to destroy an entire universe and when Rogers tried to stop them they erased his mind to forget their plans.

    As for Bill Foster, my memory is a bit hazy on that part.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_E_88 View Post
    Oh...sorry, I misinterpreted that.

    Clone Thor was just Stark and Richard's arrogance, which is not strange since they and the rest of the illuminati tried to destroy an entire universe and when Rogers tried to stop them they erased his mind to forget their plans.

    As for Bill Foster, my memory is a bit hazy on that part.
    they wanted to destroy a planet... also i think tony was inverted morally around that time?
    They ultimately didn't but I think because of misinformation steve kept chasing them regardless

    Plus I think ragnarok acting out could be attributed to Criti-Noll who was a skrull replacing hank pym who worked on ragnarok.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_E_88 View Post
    Oh...sorry, I misinterpreted that.

    Clone Thor was just Stark and Richard's arrogance, which is not strange since they and the rest of the illuminati tried to destroy an entire universe and when Rogers tried to stop them they erased his mind to forget their plans.

    As for Bill Foster, my memory is a bit hazy on that part.
    Bill Foster got a hole blown in him by Clone Thor.

    And honestly, I can't see 'Clone Thor' as an in character action for either Reed or Stark. I'm still stunned that only Pym was absolved of it

  13. #58
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    I thought it was dumb they acted like Precogs were just some big new thing to the universe. Their a dime a dozen amongst mutants. What made Ulysses so special because he was an Inhuman? Even now their are others with the ability to see the future just chilling unbothered. My boy Wiccan can see every possible outcome/future to every reality and is untouched and unbothered. It was just dumb to this day I don't understand what made Ulysses so special to the Superheroes of Marvel.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    they wanted to destroy a planet... also i think tony was inverted morally around that time?
    They ultimately didn't but I think because of misinformation steve kept chasing them regardless

    Plus I think ragnarok acting out could be attributed to Criti-Noll who was a skrull replacing hank pym who worked on ragnarok.
    Yeah, but it still doesn't change that Stark and Richards can be arrogant from sometimes. Civil War was one of the times that they were.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    I thought it was dumb they acted like Precogs were just some big new thing to the universe. Their a dime a dozen amongst mutants. What made Ulysses so special because he was an Inhuman? Even now their are others with the ability to see the future just chilling unbothered. My boy Wiccan can see every possible outcome/future to every reality and is untouched and unbothered. It was just dumb to this day I don't understand what made Ulysses so special to the Superheroes of Marvel.
    Bendis said so?

    Also, he gave some techno babble excuse that plot devise didn't actually see the future but saw information and came to a likely conclusion. And since that conclusion wasn't 100% correct, according to Stark/the story, it should be completely ignored

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