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  1. #16
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    The small Earth Two differences added up. I guess it's a lot more notable for how things turned out for the Bat family, but being at a different stages with different supporting characters and villains was enough for Superman apparently.

    I'd rather see them take that and make a George Reeves Superman from it than try to bring back the earliest depiction of the character. for the sake of doing something unique.
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  2. #17
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    The small Earth Two differences added up. I guess it's a lot more notable for how things turned out for the Bat family, but being at a different stages with different supporting characters and villains was enough for Superman apparently.

    I'd rather see them take that and make a George Reeves Superman from it than try to bring back the earliest depiction of the character. for the sake of doing something unique.
    George reeves is fine. I just want something different is all.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, then what's the point of having an earth two or calling the guy goldenage superman?
    The real reason for a second Superman back then was to resolve the 'inconsistency' of Superman being a member of both the JLA and the JSA, despite both teams being on different earths. And since the JSA were the Golden Age heroes, it made sense that their Superman would be the Golden Age version.

    Its worth noting that the Golden Age Superman was pretty indistinguishable from the Silver/Bronze Age Superman for most of that era...barring the first few years of Siegal/Shuster stories. When they set about making the Earth Two Superman distinct, they took a few elements from the earliest Siegal/Shuster stories (the Daily Star, the symbol, no Superboy career etc.) but for the most part, he was basically an older version of the Earth One Superman.

    There may very well be an earth out there where its still 1938 and Superman is pumelling wife-beaters...but the 'Earth Two Superman', as he was established in the 70's, is NOT that guy.

  4. #19
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    While I liked the Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Superman, he's a thorny complication. He's not really the original Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. He's a calculation by E. Nelson Bridwell and others where anything not belonging to Earth-One Superman that had previously been a part of the mythology was subtracted out and made to stand for the Earth-Two Superman. So things like the Daily Star newspaper, the name Kal-L, the different costume design were all given to Earth-Two Superman after the fact. When in reality, the original Superman of Siegel and Shuster that existed from 1934 (or 1933?) through 1947, when they were forced out, had most of the attributes of what was later called Earth-One Superman.

    The main difference is that Earth-Two Superman increases his power load as he ages, while Earth-One Superman (from the time he arrives on Earth as baby Kal-El) always had his impressive powers. You could easily use this to argue that as Earth-Two Superman ages he becomes even more powerful than his Earth-One counterpart. By the 1970s, I think that both the so-called Kal-L and Kal-El are at equal strength--there's almost no difference between them on that score. If the comics had continued beyond 1985, I'd expect Earth-Two to have the more powerful Superman.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    While I liked the Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Superman, he's a thorny complication. He's not really the original Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. He's a calculation by E. Nelson Bridwell and others where anything not belonging to Earth-One Superman that had previously been a part of the mythology was subtracted out and made to stand for the Earth-Two Superman. So things like the Daily Star newspaper, the name Kal-L, the different costume design were all given to Earth-Two Superman after the fact. When in reality, the original Superman of Siegel and Shuster that existed from 1934 (or 1933?) through 1947, when they were forced out, had most of the attributes of what was later called Earth-One Superman.

    The main difference is that Earth-Two Superman increases his power load as he ages, while Earth-One Superman (from the time he arrives on Earth as baby Kal-El) always had his impressive powers. You could easily use this to argue that as Earth-Two Superman ages he becomes even more powerful than his Earth-One counterpart. By the 1970s, I think that both the so-called Kal-L and Kal-El are at equal strength--there's almost no difference between them on that score. If the comics had continued beyond 1985, I'd expect Earth-Two to have the more powerful Superman.
    Given that Kal-L turned out to be the one, (along with an assist from Darkseid), to stop the Anti-Monitor...maybe he was. IIRC, even Darkseid was impressed by that one.

  6. #21
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    To me the distinction for the Earth-Two or Golden Age Superman is largely his being older.

    The Earth-One Superman in the Silver/Bronze Age was more modern. He was made to fit the current stories and zeitgeist. Unlike the original Superman he'd never been wanted by the police or played a role in any "real" historical events. Despite being a proud American he steered clear of the Cold War. He might stop the occasional espionage agent, but modern Supermen didn't get involved with anti-Communist agendas or fight in places like Korea or Vietnam. From his debut as Superboy to his "current" adventures he pretty much fought the same never-ending battle in the same exact way.

    The Golden Age Superman started out more rough and tumble. He'd been a guy who solved issues without much concern for government or laws in 1938, but grew more subtle and less direct as he matured. He'd stayed stateside for the most part in the Second World War but still was part of the war effort. His life and career showed changes and growth. And it had real world events covering decades as part of the backdrop. He wasn't the same guy in 1938 as he was in the present.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Earth 2 used to be a world where time could move forward, in contrast to Earth 1 where it stood still. Now time on Earth 0 moves forward, and I'd like to see Earth 2 repurposed as a world where every character is written with an eye toward their original conception or characterization. Earth 2 Superman would be similar to Grant Morrison's Action run for example, in that he'd be written with an eye toward Siegel and Shuster, rather than just a version of Superman who was mostly the same as the classic version.

    Or the Question, for example: written more like Ditko, without an eye toward O'Neill's revisions, as most takes on the Question tend to consider. Batman as a gentleman adventurer, Wonder Woman with all the wild amazon super-science and giant kangaroos and stuff, Freddy Freeman as this aggressive Nazi hater who absolutely kills every Nazi he meets without worrying about the morality of it...

    I'd love to see that sort of approach to Earth 2 characters.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Earth 2 used to be a world where time could move forward, in contrast to Earth 1 where it stood still. Now time on Earth 0 moves forward, and I'd like to see Earth 2 repurposed as a world where every character is written with an eye toward their original conception or characterization. Earth 2 Superman would be similar to Grant Morrison's Action run for example, in that he'd be written with an eye toward Siegel and Shuster, rather than just a version of Superman who was mostly the same as the classic version.

    Or the Question, for example: written more like Ditko, without an eye toward O'Neill's revisions, as most takes on the Question tend to consider. Batman as a gentleman adventurer, Wonder Woman with all the wild amazon super-science and giant kangaroos and stuff, Freddy Freeman as this aggressive Nazi hater who absolutely kills every Nazi he meets without worrying about the morality of it...

    I'd love to see that sort of approach to Earth 2 characters.
    That's an interesting take on it.

  9. #24
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    I view Freddy Freeman more as a really good baseball player, but okay.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Isn't that the baseball thing a '90s development? Don't remember it coming up in the Golden Age Captain Marvel Jr stories I've read, but then I never read his origin story with Captain Marvel either - just his first run of solo stories, in which he tried to straight up kill Captain Nazi in every single encounter, and it was frankly, awesome. The '90s series where he tries to kill Captain Nazi and Billy talks him down from it reads to me almost like a betrayal of the original pure desire to see Nazis get beat down, a concession to decades of the alternately censor-pleasing and navel-gazing morality that came since the Golden Age. I'd never try to say that a more restrained moral system has no place in the super-hero genre, it clearly does, but I also think that treating it as the default is restrictive, especially when you think of just how much pure fun the Nazi-Killing Captain Marvel Jr was back in the '40s.

    Also, even if it was a '90s development, I suppose there's not really any reason why Freddy can't be an ex-little leaguer. I just can't imagine it'd come up all that often.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Isn't that the baseball thing a '90s development? Don't remember it coming up in the Golden Age Captain Marvel Jr stories I've read, but then I never read his origin story with Captain Marvel either - just his first run of solo stories, in which he tried to straight up kill Captain Nazi in every single encounter, and it was frankly, awesome. The '90s series where he tries to kill Captain Nazi and Billy talks him down from it reads to me almost like a betrayal of the original pure desire to see Nazis get beat down, a concession to decades of the alternately censor-pleasing and navel-gazing morality that came since the Golden Age. I'd never try to say that a more restrained moral system has no place in the super-hero genre, it clearly does, but I also think that treating it as the default is restrictive, especially when you think of just how much pure fun the Nazi-Killing Captain Marvel Jr was back in the '40s.

    Also, even if it was a '90s development, I suppose there's not really any reason why Freddy can't be an ex-little leaguer. I just can't imagine it'd come up all that often.
    No, sorry, that was an obscure joke, a literal inside Baseball joke. The Atlanta Brave's All-Star first baseman is named Freddy Freeman. So I'm thinking he has himself a secret...

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Earth Two Superman, as originally portrayed in the 1970's and 80's, actually wasn't a whole lot different from Earth One Superman. Sure, he looked older (which was down to the grey temples) and was technically supposed to be the same guy from Action Comics # 1, but otherwise he wasn't substantially different. Yeah, he was married to Lois, but that's always a possible (even likely) future for any version of Superman.

    Yes, being the Siegal/Shuster Superman who tears down slums and bashes up wife-beaters was part of his backstory, but he had long since moved on from that phase and become a classic superhero, with the same attitude and approach as any other mainstream incarnation of the character.

    Earth Two Superman was essentially the same Superman, but older, when you overlooked the superficial differences. Power Girl on the other hand, while technically being the same person as Supergirl, was actually a very different character, with a distinct personality and look, and a slightly different backstory.
    That is why I have never been a fan of the Earth 2 Superman (or Batman or Wonder Woman for the matter). They are just to close to the prime Earth versions. With the rest of the JSA the characters are very different which to me made them more fun to read about. I honestly thought that was one of the best things the Nu52 Earth 2 book did right was killing off the trinity right from the start so that the other characters could shine. Even when they brought in new versions like Val Zod and Thomas Wayne they were different enough to not just seem like cut and pastes of the prime Earth counterparts.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The main difference is that Earth-Two Superman increases his power load as he ages, while Earth-One Superman (from the time he arrives on Earth as baby Kal-El) always had his impressive powers. You could easily use this to argue that as Earth-Two Superman ages he becomes even more powerful than his Earth-One counterpart. By the 1970s, I think that both the so-called Kal-L and Kal-El are at equal strength--there's almost no difference between them on that score. If the comics had continued beyond 1985, I'd expect Earth-Two to have the more powerful Superman.


    I'm not sure that's true.

    I distinctly remember a comic where E-2 Superman talks about how he's not as strong as he was in his prime, but he still has enough strenght/speed/whatever to be Superman. E-1 had more power, E-2 had more experience. Also probably tying into the idea that Action #1 was always a weaker version of Superman than Silver Age.

    98185267_145113020412683_291516120622432256_o.jpg

    Personally I have always loved the idea of superman is at his peak 'now'. As he grows older, he'll get weaker with age. The idea of the eternal sun god never worked for me. I prefer this version.

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    In the 1970's and 1980's, weren't E-2 characters weaker than E-1? That seemed to change later on, maybe the 1990's or 2000's, where the E-2 were said to be more powerful.

    Where would everyone want E-2 characters to be today? Slightly weaker than E-1, slightly stronger, or the same strength as opposite Earth versions?

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    In the 1970's and 1980's, weren't E-2 characters weaker than E-1? That seemed to change later on, maybe the 1990's or 2000's, where the E-2 were said to be more powerful.

    Where would everyone want E-2 characters to be today? Slightly weaker than E-1, slightly stronger, or the same strength as opposite Earth versions?
    I like them to be older... but comparable. I like them to be contemporaries, not mentors or invalids. I think a slight power dip with experience making up for it is just fine. Alan and Hal are based on Will... so they're pretty equal. Jay was said to be slightly quicker than Barry but didn't have as much endurance. That's pretty cool. Superman again was dipping down as he got older, but still able to do what needed to be done.



    As for the 90's and 2000's... that gets... fuzzy. In the 70's and 80's they were a little older and little weaker than their E-1 silver age counterparts.... In the 90's and 2000's, there was no comparisons. Those 'slightly weaker than silver age' was mountains more powerful then the 'post crisis' versions were. So yeah... by that measure, E-2 was much more powerful than Post crisis 2000's characters but they never actually met or anything.

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