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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    depends on how many tankies are there in antifa. Plus half hearted and sporadic violence can accelerate fascism by giving them ammo and letting them play the victim.
    Yeah that’s because you care about what fascists have to say. I don’t care if they play victim, they still getting the guillotine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icefanatic View Post
    I wouldn't call beating people, including reporters and bystanders, with bicycle locks 'property damage'.

    Perhaps an analogy to explain my difficultly in understanding you will help.

    I feel like I am talking with people about two evils, not unlike rape and murder, with someone who says 'how can you equate killing someone with sex'.

    I don't know if it's that you are incapable of seeing the evil in Antifa, or you are simply unwilling to, but in either case further discussion with you or anyone like you is pointless. Goodnight.
    Punching nazis, dousing alt right reporters like Andy Ngo with milkshakes, and destroying property is all I’ve heard of. Unless you have something about them “attacking innocents” then keep it on the playground.

    “Far most people, fascist activism and organizing are abstractions removed from their daily lives; images on television and news reports, cartoonish villains. For the antifa activists whom I researched, fascists represented an intense and immediate threat.
    Many militant anti-fascists become involved in this form of activism because aspects of their identity are directly targeted by fascist violence; they are queer, transgender, gender non-conforming, people of color, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, and certainly identified in ways that intersected across these categories.

    For them, anti-fascism was a means of ensuring their safety from a movement that threatens their very existence and venerates violence as the highest form of action. Even the antifa activists who identify as cis heterosexual white males are the targets of fascist violence as "race" and "gender" traitors.“

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    Mystique assassinating kelly caused DOFP and trying but failing to assassinate kelly pushed forward the Mutant registration thing
    Magneto attacking US army bases pre-emptively caused sentinels to be pushed harder and the government to crack down harder.

    Random acts of violence and pre-emptive strikes in the marvel universe only seem make things worse rather than better.
    They're not going to listen. The game is mutant domination, not peaceful coexistence like Xavier dreamt. It's why the PF are lionised, they did the impossible and conquered the world - ultimate power for mutant kind at the expense of freedom for everyone else. The Avengers had the temerity to fight back when it's their job to save the world from super-villain tyrants.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They're not going to listen. The game is mutant domination, not peaceful coexistence like Xavier dreamt. It's why the PF are lionised, they did the impossible and conquered the world - ultimate power for mutant kind at the expense of freedom for everyone else. The Avengers had the temerity to fight back when it's their job to save the world from super-villain tyrants.
    And who exactly saw them as villains besides the Avengers? Because even Reed Richards and Black Panther found that they shouldn’t be bothering with them for absolutely no reason. They initiated attacks at every turn.

  4. #124
    Incredible Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    Umm? Not for nothing but... If Piotr is a pedophile. Wouldn't that make Kitty a Lolita?
    Sure thing
    “The Scarlet Witch is the only thing that will scare them. It’s the only thing they’ll respect.” - Hope Summers, Avengers vs X-Men #7

  5. #125
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    Sure thing
    Hmmmm Is Kitty from Long Island?
    GrindrStone(D)

  6. #126
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    At least Peter was 19 and Kitty was 14. What’s Betsy’s excuse with Doug?

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    And who exactly saw them as villains besides the Avengers? Because even Reed Richards and Black Panther found that they shouldn’t be bothering with them for absolutely no reason. They initiated attacks at every turn.
    How about the X-men? Xavier himself? It's irritating how they get erased from the opposition to the PF, since acknowledging that means the PF weren't adored by every mutant on Earth. It's not like the Black Panther didn't assist the Avengers. If they were seen as saviours where were all their supporters when they lost their powers? They all became pariahs, until Hickman's X-men then everyone got amnesia of this period.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Yeah that’s because you care about what fascists have to say. I don’t care if they play victim, they still getting the guillotine.

    Punching nazis, dousing alt right reporters like Andy Ngo with milkshakes, and destroying property is all I’ve heard of. Unless you have something about them “attacking innocents” then keep it on the playground.
    You have to care about what they say, how they say it. That's how they get power and support. Not from you, or me but many impressionable people exist. Jokes or empty threats of the guillotine are no good, exposing people like andy ngo for things like his doxing causing the death of innocents is more important. Also, looking at whatever fundamental problems the people are facing. Populism is taken up to rally people on fascism's side, that's how trump came to power, that's how hitler did it too.

  9. #129
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneTitan View Post
    Let me preface this by saying I'm a gay Black guy and Cyclops is my favorite character.

    Cyclops was hated more because in real society it would've more palatable to hate a straight White male than a mentally ill Romani woman. I don't think Marvel editorial or writers did this on purpose, but there had to have been some residue of societal shifts affecting how much shit Cyclops was getting in the Marvel Universe. I mean, my homie was possessed by The Phoenix Force and The Avengers were constantly f*cking with him at every turn.
    Let me say this as a black guy. Scott being white has zero to do with him catching crap. The dude has received all the major development not given to Wolverine (ahem)...the other so-called disenfranchised white guy mutant. Let's do a development ratio of Scott to say Beast, Storm, Gambit, or Bishop during the time Cyclops was made the sole leader of all X-Men.

  10. #130
    Incredible Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Hmmmm Is Kitty from Long Island?
    She’s from Illinois.
    “The Scarlet Witch is the only thing that will scare them. It’s the only thing they’ll respect.” - Hope Summers, Avengers vs X-Men #7

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    At least Peter was 19 and Kitty was 14. What’s Betsy’s excuse with Doug?
    Well....the age of consent in New York is 16
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    How about the X-men? Xavier himself? It's irritating how they get erased from the opposition to the PF,
    I mean editoral mandate notwithstanding
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    since acknowledging that means the PF weren't adored by every mutant on Earth.
    Just about everyone on earth
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    It's not like the Black Panther didn't assist the Avengers. If they were seen as saviours where were all their supporters when they lost their powers?
    Mostly wondering where their next meal/water is coming from
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They all became pariahs, until Hickman's X-men then everyone got amnesia of this period.
    Sooo you acknowledge there was a pushback
    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    She’s from Illinois.
    Im from the south sooooo same thing?
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    You have to care about what they say, how they say it. That's how they get power and support. Not from you, or me but many impressionable people exist. Jokes or empty threats of the guillotine are no good, exposing people like andy ngo for things like his doxing causing the death of innocents is more important. Also, looking at whatever fundamental problems the people are facing. Populism is taken up to rally people on fascism's side, that's how trump came to power, that's how hitler did it too.
    I don’t care about what they have to say, that doesn’t mean I don’t understand the danger of their ideology. And I can multitask, I can expose Mr Nazi & make guillotine jokes. And since you know so much, you can expose him too rather than try to shut anyone up who doesn’t want to walk on eggshells because fascists could cry and make racists feel bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    How about the X-men? Xavier himself? It's irritating how they get erased from the opposition to the PF, since acknowledging that means the PF weren't adored by every mutant on Earth. It's not like the Black Panther didn't assist the Avengers. If they were seen as saviours where were all their supporters when they lost their powers? They all became pariahs, until Hickman's X-men then everyone got amnesia of this period.
    No one said they were “adorned by all mutants” cause its pretty clear they still got flack from Wolverine. Xavier felt they were making a utopia without any sacrifices, and albeit years later, we know why. Also, it’s disingenuous to bring up their lack of support without also bringing up that they were constantly ambushed by the Avengers until it broke their control over the Phoenix. Similar to how Mastermind essentially shattering Jean’s psyche led to her rise as the Dark Phoenix. And after said actions they took while corrupted (again, due to constant attacks by the Avengers and only the Avengers), it makes sense why they wouldn’t have any people supporting them. Either way, after Cyclops broke out of jail and lead a mutant revolution, he had both mutant and human supporters while still preaching about mutant liberation. Huh almost as if you don’t need respectability politics to have harmony between the two. Makes ya think huh.

  13. #133
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    Mystique assassinating kelly caused DOFP and trying but failing to assassinate kelly pushed forward the Mutant registration thing
    Magneto attacking US army bases pre-emptively caused sentinels to be pushed harder and the government to crack down harder. In fact magneto's history of violent and supremist means definitely contributed to wanda going "no more mutants"

    Random acts of violence and pre-emptive strikes in the marvel universe only seem make things worse rather than better.
    I agree. Once, extreme actions in the name of good were frowned upon in X-books, the authors showing the downsides of this attitude.

    Now, no one, expect maybe Betsy, represents the measured attitude, the moral, the decent one. It's "the end justifies the means"… and it appeals to some readers. Xavier is more loved now than before with his cold and cynical personality.

    Well, we'll see how it will end, if Hickman is eventually a moral author.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I agree. Once, extreme actions in the name of good were frowned upon in X-books, the authors showing the downsides of this attitude.
    Yeah until about X-Force formation
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Xavier is more loved now than before with his cold and cynical personality.
    If thats the case...and most of these people dont think hes cold or cynical.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Well, we'll see how it will end, if Hickman is eventually a moral author.
    the direction of a fictional character doesn't represent the writers moral compass
    GrindrStone(D)

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    No one said they were “adorned by all mutants” cause its pretty clear they still got flack from Wolverine. Xavier felt they were making a utopia without any sacrifices, and albeit years later, we know why. Also, it’s disingenuous to bring up their lack of support without also bringing up that they were constantly ambushed by the Avengers until it broke their control over the Phoenix. Similar to how Mastermind essentially shattering Jean’s psyche led to her rise as the Dark Phoenix. And after said actions they took while corrupted (again, due to constant attacks by the Avengers and only the Avengers), it makes sense why they wouldn’t have any people supporting them. Either way, after Cyclops broke out of jail and lead a mutant revolution, he had both mutant and human supporters while still preaching about mutant liberation. Huh almost as if you don’t need respectability politics to have harmony between the two. Makes ya think huh.
    A big part of the defence that the PF are "heroes" are that they have a large contingent of followers among humanity and mutant kind, and there were more X-men who went against them than Wolverine.

    The support they do get shouldn't be that hurt by the Avengers attacking them, if a super-hero team like the Avengers going against them in public can break their "support" that easily it was barely support to begin with. If the support was based on their control of the Phoenix that was;t actual support, it was fear of the Phoenix killing them if they didn't do what they said. Which is logical as they PF have a history of murdering and exiling anyone they dislike on other worlds, PF Magik did the latter to Rogue!

    Namor was doing things like flooding Wakanda long before Scott became Dark Phoenix.

    Your description of the "support" the PF have is inconsistent, and eventually crumbles into nobody supporting them? And blaming the Avengers because they did things like conquering the world by force and doing evil acts on their own before the Dark Phoenix manifested.

    But did Scott have the "support" you claim he had while the PF are at their peak? Having a bunch of outlaws isn't evidence that the whole world was on their side when they lost the Phoenix, it shows the opposite. Where's the world governments, militaries and average people coming to their aide?

    Scott's "revolution" failed, and Krakoa at least pretends to participate in respectability politics, it's why they're entrenched in mundane global politics rather than conquering the world from the get go like the PF did. The PF got replaced entirely, aside from Emma Frost and she's not known as being a leader in Krakoa government. Scott, Magik, Emma and Colossus all got demoted in the new status quo.

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