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  1. #136
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    A big part of the defence that the PF are "heroes" are that they have a large contingent of followers among humanity and mutant kind, and there were more X-men who went against them than Wolverine.
    Like? Cause the Schism between most mutants was temporarily healed when the P5 started changing the world for the better. Please list all these mutants that went against them during their initial establishment of the new Utopia? Because I promise you Logan and anyone supporting him up until the P5’s descent were in the minority.

    The support they do get shouldn't be that hurt by the Avengers attacking them, if a super-hero team like the Avengers going against them in public can break their "support" that easily it was barely support to begin with. If the support was based on their control of the Phoenix that was;t actual support, it was fear of the Phoenix killing them if they didn't do what they said. Which is logical as they PF have a history of murdering and exiling anyone they dislike on other worlds, PF Magik did the latter to Rogue!
    Did I say their support was dropped just because of the Avengers or did I say that their eventual corruption was the result of multiple attacks by said Avengers leading them to take drastic actions that lead to their support dwindling? Because I believe I said the latter.

    Namor was doing things like flooding Wakanda long before Scott became Dark Phoenix.
    Right after the Avengers attacked and kidnapped Transonic. Which brings me back to my point, they were corrupted by the Avengers’ constant attacks. Also let’s please not act like Namor flooded the entire country of Wakanda because that’s not what happened.

    Your description of the "support" the PF have is inconsistent, and eventually crumbles into nobody supporting them? And blaming the Avengers because they did things like conquering the world by force and doing evil acts on their own before the Dark Phoenix manifested.
    You mean the “evil acts” they did after constantly being antagonized by the Avengers or the “evil acts” they did before that where they were providing free energy, getting rid of nuclear weaponry, destroying Sentinels, providing free food to the masses etc etc?

    But did Scott have the "support" you claim he had while the PF are at their peak? Having a bunch of outlaws isn't evidence that the whole world was on their side when they lost the Phoenix, it shows the opposite. Where's the world governments, militaries and average people coming to their aide?
    Why would they want the support of the same world governments that try to sign mutants’ collective death warrant? More importantly, that clearly wasn’t my point.

    Scott's "revolution" failed, and Krakoa at least pretends to participate in respectability politics, it's why they're entrenched in mundane global politics rather than conquering the world from the get go like the PF did. The PF got replaced entirely, aside from Emma Frost and she's not known as being a leader in Krakoa government. Scott, Magik, Emma and Colossus all got demoted in the new status quo.
    Please look up what respectability politics are because I’m 200% sure you are using that word wrong. And, no, Scott’s revolution didn’t fail. Read Uncanny X-Men #600. Cyclops is leader of the X-Men and Captain Commander, Magik is head of the Akademos Habitat and another Captain, and Emma is the global face of Krakoa. What are you talking about, my guy?
    Last edited by Tycon; 05-25-2020 at 01:47 AM.

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    A big part of the defence that the PF are "heroes" are that they have a large contingent of followers among humanity and mutant kind, and there were more X-men who went against them than Wolverine.

    The support they do get shouldn't be that hurt by the Avengers attacking them, if a super-hero team like the Avengers going against them in public can break their "support" that easily it was barely support to begin with. If the support was based on their control of the Phoenix that was;t actual support, it was fear of the Phoenix killing them if they didn't do what they said. Which is logical as they PF have a history of murdering and exiling anyone they dislike on other worlds, PF Magik did the latter to Rogue!

    Namor was doing things like flooding Wakanda long before Scott became Dark Phoenix.

    Your description of the "support" the PF have is inconsistent, and eventually crumbles into nobody supporting them? And blaming the Avengers because they did things like conquering the world by force and doing evil acts on their own before the Dark Phoenix manifested.

    But did Scott have the "support" you claim he had while the PF are at their peak? Having a bunch of outlaws isn't evidence that the whole world was on their side when they lost the Phoenix, it shows the opposite. Where's the world governments, militaries and average people coming to their aide?

    Scott's "revolution" failed, and Krakoa at least pretends to participate in respectability politics, it's why they're entrenched in mundane global politics rather than conquering the world from the get go like the PF did. The PF got replaced entirely, aside from Emma Frost and she's not known as being a leader in Krakoa government. Scott, Magik, Emma and Colossus all got demoted in the new status quo.
    Welp. Scott is a Great Commander, Magik is a Great Captain, Emma is a Councilor said to be the most powerful (economically) on Krakoa by Hickman. But anyways... That's not the point.

    The whole origin of the P5 was that the Force was imposed on them by Stark because he split it. It's not like they got together and were like "let's choose the most suitable mutants to do this job". It was an accident they got into. So the comparison to the Quiet Council or Krakoa is literally non-sense.

    And the Avengers made them lose control. It was not even subtext. Each incursion by the Avengers caused either a retaliation (emotionally emphasised by the Phoenix to a thousand) or a piece of the Phoenix to go into someone else, making them crazier each time.

    And their teammates lost trust in them each time, exactly because they were going crazier after each piece was lost!

    Nice of you to acknowledge that the P5 became pariahs btw, since in the other Wanda thread you made it seem like Wanda got it worse than them from the hero and mutant community.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Like? Cause the Schism between most mutants was temporarily healed when the P5 started changing the world for the better. Please list all these mutants that went against them during their initial establishment of the new Utopia? Because I promise you Logan and anyone supporting him up until the P5’s descent were in the minority.
    Hope Summers, Xavier, Beast, Loa, X-23, the mutant students at Avengers Academy, Storm, Dust, Surge, Mr. Sinister, Rachel Summers, Kitty Pryde, Iceman, Angel, the Utopia teenagers who move to the Jean Grey school, Toad, Husk, Broo, Oya (before being brainwashed by the Stepford Cuckoo's), Rogue.

    What about all the humans that supposedly were on PF's side? Where were they during all this?

    But say you're right, where were all the people when Scott lost the Phoenix? He lost everything.

    Did I say their support was dropped just because of the Avengers or did I say that their eventual corruption was the result of multiple attacks by said Avengers leading them to take drastic actions that lead to their support dwindling? Because I believe I said the latter.
    Don't blame this all on the Avengers, it's the Phoenix Force and they used it to conquer the world by force. We know the Phoenix is a volatile entity, and they'd have been fools to just let them stomp over humanity without fighting back. PF Colossus can't get into a heated argument with Kitty Pryde over dinner without physically harming her. They were a ticking time bomb, like any other Phoenix host.


    Right after the Avengers attacked and kidnapped Transonic. Which brings me back to my point, they were corrupted by the Avengers’ constant attacks. Also let’s please not act like Namor flooded the entire country of Wakanda because that’s not what happened.
    Do you mean Hope? The person who they are able to convince her they were on the right side?

    Namor destroyed most of the country with the flood, he did this with his Atlantean army.



    I wouldn't call this a heroic action, and the PF did nothing to stop it. Wakanda has mutants, and Namor killed an untold number of people with that action.

    You mean the “evil acts” they did after constantly being antagonized by the Avengers or the “evil acts” they did before that where they were providing free energy, getting rid of nuclear weaponry, destroying Sentinels, providing free food to the masses etc etc?
    I consider cold blooded murder, conquering the world, sending super-heroes to hell because they don't want to live under the boot of a tyrant gods and exiling a team mate to a foreign world permanently for simply disagreeing with someone evil.

    That came at a cost, it wants given freely. To the PF the choices they gave was bow down or die, and don't get into an argument with them or they'll physically harm you.

    Why would they want the support of the same world governments that try to sign mutants’ collective death warrant? More importantly, that clearly wasn’t my point.
    So they didn't have the support of the world government or militaries, which is a big blow that they have the Earth voluntarily under their sway. They had to intimidate everyone of those people into doing what they say, or they risk death. That's a common thing super-villains do when they conquer the world. If they don't have those voluntarily in their pocket that's a massive problem with their popularity when the Phoenix predictably leaves. Your point was that they had the world's support, they didn't.

    Please look up what respectability politics are because I’m 200% sure you are using that word wrong. And, no, Scott’s revolution didn’t fail. Read Uncanny X-Men #600. Cyclops is leader of the X-Men and Captain Commander, Magik is head of the Akademos Habitat and another Captain, and Emma is the global face of Krakoa. What are you talking about, my guy?
    Captain Commander is a military post, not the highest position in government leadership. The Quiet Council rule Krkaoa, and he's not on it. His rank is below all of them. All those people are below the Quiet Council in Krakoa, Scott isn't leading anything like he was in his "revolution" he's following orders. Xavier's, precisely. It's not even Scott's project, he's just along for the ride. Magneto's the global face to Krkaoa, Emma's not known as their highest leader and she isn't - Xavier says "Jump," she says "How high, sir?"

    Krakoa uses responsibility politics to hide their radical actions, they didn't do what the PF did. They subvert systems from the inside, with money and influence not absolute power. The meeting they had with the world governments and selling drugs? Respectability politics. They're working within the rules of the system, not outside it. They're the carrot, the PF were the stick.

  4. #139
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    Look can we all just accept that AvX and Decimation were stupid stories and move on?

  5. #140
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Look can we all just accept that AvX and Decimation were stupid stories and move on?
    That's sounds reasonable and wise... so of course they won't.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  6. #141
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icefanatic View Post
    People routinely compare fascists with Antifa.

    Antifa members routinely break out store windows, set cars on fire and beat reporters and innocent bystanders with bicycle locks in the name of fighting fascism. They generally behave like violent anarchists who use their stance against fascists and those they falsely accuse of fascism to try and paint themselves as a force for good.

    I see little difference between Antifa and fascists groups like the Proud Boys other than the phony excuses they use to justify their evil behavior.
    Thank you, now that I know someone like you hates Revolutionary Cyclops and Krakoa, I can confirm that they are correct.

  7. #142
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Thank you, now that I know someone like you hates Revolutionary Cyclops and Krakoa, I can confirm that they are correct.
    I think I know what you're trying to say.... but the above is written it seems like you're agreeing with him.
    That said I agree with Icefanatic.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  8. #143
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I think I know what you're trying to say.... but the above is written it seems like you're agreeing with him.
    That said I agree with Icefanatic.
    English is not my first language. But in any case, if someone supports "actually both sides are just as bad", it is someone I know that their opinion does not interest me.

  9. #144
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    In universe? Cause Wanda cheated with magicks and yoga.

  10. #145
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    The same reason Daredevil isn’t hated after Shadowland. Because he has an in with Captain America. Like Wolverine in Enemy of the State.

    Cyclops dared to defy Captain Amerrica which pisses him and the rest of the Avengers off. So he doesn’t get an
    “out.”

    Ironically, Cap ended up doing exactly what Cyclops was trying to do in the first place. Train Hope to take the Phoenix Force. Which makes Cap the biggest hypocrite on the planet.

    Wanda was a chick on Cap’s side. So of course he won’t blame her.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 05-25-2020 at 05:30 AM.

  11. #146
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Hope Summers, Xavier, Beast, Loa, X-23, the mutant students at Avengers Academy, Storm, Dust, Surge, Mr. Sinister, Rachel Summers, Kitty Pryde, Iceman, Angel, the Utopia teenagers who move to the Jean Grey school, Toad, Husk, Broo, Oya (before being brainwashed by the Stepford Cuckoo's), Rogue.
    lol Your "facts" are all wrong. But this is funny...why would they care what Mr. Sinister thinks? But yeah for the overwhelmingly most part the mutants (as well as flatscans) were down with the P5 New World Order.

    As you can see the Avengers Academy muties werent cool with the way the Avengers were running things...forcing minors from their homes...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    What about all the humans that supposedly were on PF's side? Where were they during all this?
    They were probably eating, drinking water, living....etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    But say you're right, where were all the people when Scott lost the Phoenix? He lost everything.
    Hopefully still enjoying the fruits of the P5 labor and sacrifice. Unless the Avengers took back all the Free Food, Clean Water and Available Energy...KNowing them...they problem did....smdh


    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Don't blame this all on the Avengers, it's the Phoenix Force and they used it to conquer the world by force. We know the Phoenix is a volatile entity, and they'd have been fools to just let them stomp over humanity without fighting back. PF Colossus can't get into a heated argument with Kitty Pryde over dinner without physically harming her. They were a ticking time bomb, like any other Phoenix host.
    I mean it's cool you're willing to acknowledge the Avengers should get ANY blame lol....
    Fighting back? lol Where did you read and in what issue that the the PF attacked first?.....Like any other host? Examples outside of anyone JeanGrey-like??


    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Namor destroyed most of the country with the flood, he did this with his Atlantean army.
    Namor flooded a city...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    I wouldn't call this a heroic action, and the PF did nothing to stop it. Wakanda has mutants, and Namor killed an untold number of people with that action.
    The P5 as a whole didn't know he planning that.I'm sure there is a exact number of folks killed cause it was in a city, presumably with census takers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    I consider cold blooded murder, conquering the world, sending super-heroes to hell because they don't want to live under the boot of a tyrant gods and exiling a team mate to a foreign world permanently for simply disagreeing with someone evil.
    Buuuuuut Not the killing of a multitude of mutants? Across all of reality?? Oooooooookay
    Using the Phoenix crazed Namor flooding Wakanda in your arguement against the p5 is ridiculous Without bringing up The Prender...The Avengers were considered global terrorists at that time. For them to just invade a nation, attack a buncha kids then hold one of said kids against their will Its an aggressive act of war. THe Pretender could have easily teleported Namor and Transonic but for some reason kept the minor girl as prisoner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That came at a cost, it wants given freely. To the PF the choices they gave was bow down or die, and don't get into an argument with them or they'll physically harm you.
    Dude where? please provide scans. Is this the same choice they gave Hawkeye?

    I mean they seem to be living peacefully with no life or death choice being made...and it only became that way as the power corrupted the remaining ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    So they didn't have the support of the world government or militaries, which is a big blow that they have the Earth voluntarily under their sway. They had to intimidate everyone of those people into doing what they say, or they risk death. That's a common thing super-villains do when they conquer the world. If they don't have those voluntarily in their pocket that's a massive problem with their popularity when the Phoenix predictably leaves. Your point was that they had the world's support, they didn't.
    I think it was meant as they had the worlds population's support...of course the governments and powers that be wouldnt want people to have free food, free energy etc. lol seems like a given.

    The P5 were beloved the Avengers mistrusted....for P5 to be able to shift the worlds whole attitude in odds with World's Mightiest Heroes in such a quick time...you know the P5 had to be doing something extra right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Xavier's, precisely. It's not even Scott's project, he's just along for the ride. Magneto's the global face to Krkaoa, Emma's not known as their highest leader and she isn't - Xavier says "Jump," she says "How high, sir?"
    He's the leader right? The one whose dream they are all striving for?
    Last edited by BroHomo; 05-25-2020 at 06:20 AM. Reason: HungDaeFFOver
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    lol Your "facts" are all wrong. But this is funny...why would they care what Mr. Sinister thinks? But yeah for the overwhelmingly most part the mutants (as well as flatscans) were down with the P5 New World Order.
    As you can see the Avengers Academy muties werent cool with the way the Avengers were running things...forcing minors from their homes...
    Keep in mind events like this don't show every facet of society's opinions, that's why it's wise not to project feelings on how they feel without confirmation.

    Academy mutants like X-23?



    They were probably eating, drinking water, living....etc.
    Anything but to save their heroes when they need them and never to be spoken of again? Because if you were right about millions of people loving the PF they'd have done something, anything to help and they'd be numerous people with skills which would come in handy for Cyclops resistance. Instead this was all washed away off screen and Krakoa was born instead.

    Hopefully still enjoying the fruits of the P5 labor and sacrifice. Unless the Avengers took back all the Free Food, Clean Water and Available Energy...KNowing them...they problem did....smdh
    You don't know anything about the Avengers. But I guess someone has to save the world if the X-men aren't interested.


    I mean it's cool you're willing to acknowledge the Avengers should get ANY blame lol....
    Fighting back? lol Where did you read and in what issue that the the PF attacked first?.....Like any other host? Examples outside of anyone JeanGrey-like??
    You think the PF didn't take over the world in X-men vs Avengers?

    Namor flooded a city...
    Did you think was a bad thing?

    The P5 as a whole didn't know he planning that.I'm sure there is a exact number of folks killed cause it was in a city, presumably with census takers.
    It's not the first time Namor's attacked humanity. In the real world they follow up with details like that on disasters.

    Buuuuuut Not the killing of a multitude of mutants? Across all of reality?? Oooooooookay
    Using the Phoenix crazed Namor flooding Wakanda in your arguement against the p5 is ridiculous Without bringing up The Prender...The Avengers were considered global terrorists at that time. For them to just invade a nation, attack a buncha kids then hold one of said kids against their will Its an aggressive act of war. THe Pretender could have easily teleported Namor and Transonic but for some reason kept the minor girl as prisoner.
    Straw manning my arguments about M-Day won't make it the truth, except it's interesting how those deaths mean something yet Wakanda's don't merit the slightest pause. Those were both tragedies. The context being Norman Osborn was controlling the Avengers Initiative and in a war with them, Emma Frost can't say that much. Warping the events as badly as possible to conceal the fact they were able to recruit Hope against the PF. Hope being the person the X-men needed to control the Phoenix, since she was the first mutant born after M-Day. When super-vilains conquer the world they lose legitimacy as a world leaders.

    Dude where? please provide scans. Is this the same choice they gave Hawkeye?

    I mean they seem to be living peacefully with no life or death choice being made...and it only became that way as the power corrupted the remaining ones.
    Xavier disagreed so much about that Cyclops killed him in response.

    I think it was meant as they had the worlds population's support...of course the governments and powers that be wouldnt want people to have free food, free energy etc. lol seems like a given.
    They had the world's support, except for all the governments and millions of other people in the militias etc. The very same people who proceeded to disappear as soon as the Phoenix was gone because that's what allies do when you need them and months later when they've founded Krakoa.



    The P5 were beloved the Avengers mistrusted....for P5 to be able to shift the worlds whole attitude in odds with World's Mightiest Heroes in such a quick time...you know the P5 had to be doing something extra right.
    For this to work the Avengers had to be branded villains by Norman Osborn when he had control of the government. Like being five cosmically empowered mentally unstable "gods" possessed by an entity who eats planets isn't going to scare people into compliance.


    He's the leader right? The one whose dream they are all striving for?
    Curious how up until this point everything was made possible by the PF, as the saviours they are, and now it's all on Xavier - the man Cyclops killed when he tried to convince him to stop and not the person who was leading the PF or the movement Cyclops had after breaking out of prison. Hickman has made it abundantly clear Krkaoa isn't Scott's idea. Dominating the world with mutant rule was Magneto's dream, not Xavier's.

  13. #148
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    There are people here who must think that Thunderbolt Ross is a hero for going around pestering that evil Hulk in the desert all the time.

  14. #149
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    How is that very specific instance of X-23 bring angry at Emma a proof that most mutants were against the P5 lol

    And Laura was angry because Emma wanted to destroy a Sentinel of all things.

  15. #150
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Cbr just becomes much easier once you start to ignore certain people

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