Why was Cyclops MORE hated than the Scarlet Witch?

[Zelena]

Normally the heroes are considered reactive and that's their expected role when it comes to saving the world. They don't bet things on a sacrifice or greater good beyond their personal lives.
The illuminati was departure from this where they were far more proactive.

For example, scott also imprisoned illyana for using them like that to fight the elder gods with a bomb strapped to her.

I agree that, usually, they don't have time to put it to a vote.

But, still, they haven't been elected, chosen by an offcial, they are self-appointed heroes. There's a problem of legitimacy…

[Ichijinijisanji]

She didnt know they were going to invade Utopia

cap literally said to let her go
Her leaving was just a "i don't want any part of this", rather that something strategic or where she warned them of it all. Beast also left of his own volition later and wasn't detained.
idk what that stuffs about

[Ichijinijisanji]

I agree that, usually, they don't have time to put it to a vote.

But, still, they haven't been elected, they are self-appointed heroes. There's a problem of legitimacy…

Vote what? It doesn't go beyond a citizen's arrest. A citizen protecting fellow citizens from active harm doesn't negatively reflect on them, which is how most of these encounters go and they turn them over to the police rather than inflicting justice like vigilantes would. The actions of regular heroes like spider-man are normally within the confines of the law, no matter what jameson says

The avengers were also heavily regulated and they had government officials like gyrich and duane as liasons, so they had legitimacy for most of their existence.

Civil war had the passing of the SHRA to increase legitimacy, but on seeing how the system was taken over and abused by osborn it was dissolved.

[houndsofluv]

Oh, mutants are absolutely entitled to be partial to themselves.
Everyone is - ultimately it is a choice people can make.
The problem here was that the X-Men are supposed to transcend those limitations between mutants and sapiens. They are supposed to care for the well-being of everyone, not just of mutantkind.
AvX is a Failure in that regard, as Scott admitted on that page.

Scott becoming an hardliner/revolutionary would have never been this much of an issue if he had done so AFTER quitting the X-Men, rather than dragging the team into that direction while leading it.
"I Believe we should care for our people first and foremost before the rest of the world.
That's why I'm leaving the X-Men effective immediately, to do exactly that: care for our people first and foremost. You guys keep the world safe, I will keep mutantkind safe. Anyone who feels the same is welcome to join me."

Bendis tried and failed to do that with his revolutionnary Scott: his team should have called itself the new Brotherhood or Something, rather than keep referring themselves as the X-Men.

The thing with Revolutionary Scott is that he's meant to represent the synthesis of Xavier's dream - something he used to embody . With the continued persecution of mutants, to the near-breaking point , this dream and what it meant to him changed. It reflects how the metaphor the x-men were built on is changing - Its character progression . The X-Men's goalposts shifted - they've suffered enough in the name of equality, so where is their respect? Where is the equality? Whether this stance is morally correct or not is up for interpretation, everyone will have a different take on it, but that's not what matters - what matters is that "the X-Men" came to mean something else over time

Scott would never call his team The Brotherhood imo. In his mind, whether we readers agree or not, he was pushing for the X-Men's goals - equality. What that equality means to him, what "the dream" means to him, has changed with time + progression

[Glio]

She didnt know they were going to invade Utopia

They were planning to do something one-sided about the Phoenix with horrible information.

Of course that would conflict with Cyclops, she is not stupid.

[Havok83]

They were planning to do something one-sided about the Phoenix with horrible information.

Of course that would conflict with Cyclops, she is not stupid.

The only thing Cap said about the situation was "Who here knows what the Phoenix Force is? and she bounced. She knew nothing of the PF obliterating planets nor the convo he had with Wolverine. She had no info to go on. ANyways this is besides the point which was to originally correct the person that said that they went to Utopia without going to Storm first. That was false and thats the last thing Im going to write about that meeting

[Ichijinijisanji]

Did ororo even tell Cyclops the Avengers were planning something?
They seemed surprised cap showed up.
Maybe it's just inconsistentcy?

Also what bad information did the Avengers have about phoenix? It was blowing up planets (so it's already dark phoenix) and is incredibly difficult to control. The phoenix 5 confirmed that she wasn't ready while Scott put his faith in her prior and didn't have any comprehensive training plan for hope.

[Will Evans]

Did ororo even tell Cyclops the Avengers were planning something?
They seemed surprised cap showed up.
Maybe it's just inconsistentcy?
.

Actually it seemed the opposite for me.

It looked like Cyclops knew the Avengers were pulling up that moment, so I assume Storm called him after leaving the Avengers meeting.

[Glio]

Did ororo even tell Cyclops the Avengers were planning something?
They seemed surprised cap showed up.
Maybe it's just inconsistentcy?

Also what bad information did the Avengers have about phoenix? It was blowing up planets (so it's already dark phoenix) and is incredibly difficult to control. The phoenix 5 confirmed that she wasn't ready while Scott put his faith in her prior and didn't have any comprehensive training plan for hope.

Hope needed her Lights to control the Phoenix, as explained in a tie-in. When she made contact with the Phoenix on the Moon she didn't have her Lights, so she couldn't control it. If the Phoenix had reached Utopia, she could have controlled it.

Cyclops knew that the Avengers would come for Hope, Cable explained it to him and showed him what would happen in the future if the Avengers captured Hope. Spoiler: Bad news.

And Phoenix can't be Dark Phoenix without a host. Dark Phoenix is born of human desire. The Phoenix exploding planets is not Dark Phoenix, it is part of its natural role in the big cosmic scheme, just like Galactus. Wolverine hinted to Cap that it was impossible to control the Phoenix, which if they had deigned to ask Rachel, who lived in the exact same building, they would know this is not true.

If the Avengers had not intervened, the Phoenix would have reached Utopia, Hope would have controlled it with the help of her Lights, would have saved the mutant race, and all would have ended peacefully.

[Havok83]

And Phoenix can't be Dark Phoenix without a host. Dark Phoenix is born of human desire. The Phoenix exploding planets is not Dark Phoenix, it is part of its natural role in the big cosmic scheme, just like Galactus. Wolverine hinted to Cap that it was impossible to control the Phoenix, which if they had deigned to ask Rachel, who lived in the exact same building, they would know this is not true.

If the Avengers had not intervened, the Phoenix would have reached Utopia, Hope would have controlled it with the help of her Lights, would have saved the mutant race, and all would have ended peacefully.

To play devil's advocate, how would the Avengers know that the Phoenix wasnt going to destroy Earth as it did the other planets? I dont agree with what they ultimately did, but it would be very foolish to sit around and do nothing with the intel they had. Fact was that planets were being destroyed and they had good reason to fear that the PF would be heading to Earth.

[Alan2099]

Phoenix has a history of destroying planets. It has never once shown the ability or desire to restore de-powered mutants. The only reason we have to think Phoenix was trying to restore mutant powers is that Cable said so.

Cable was incredibly vague with what he said was going to happen and has a bad history or not being trust worthy at the best of times.

Cyclops at the time has been show to be more and more irrational and desperate from previous events.

Wolverine hinted to Cap that it was impossible to control the Phoenix, which if they had deigned to ask Rachel, who lived in the exact same building, they would know this is not true.

Wolverine has been Phoenix before, more recently than Rachael has as well, and it seems most of what happened with Rachael has been ignored by other comics and tons of retcons.

If the Avengers had not intervened, the Phoenix would have reached Utopia, Hope would have controlled it with the help of her Lights,

Hope herself said she wasn't ready and needed assistance controlling Phoenix. Assistance from Scarlet Witch, no less.

[Glio]

Phoenix has a history of destroying planets. It has never once shown the ability or desire to restore de-powered mutants. The only reason we have to think Phoenix was trying to restore mutant powers is that Cable said so.

Cable was incredibly vague with what he said was going to happen and has a bad history or not being trust worthy at the best of times.

Cyclops at the time has been show to be more and more irrational and desperate from previous events.


Wolverine has been Phoenix before, more recently than Rachael has as well, and it seems most of what happened with Rachael has been ignored by other comics and tons of retcons.


Hope herself said she wasn't ready and needed assistance controlling Phoenix. Assistance from Scarlet Witch, no less.

Hope didn't know that she needed the Light, no one knew except that strange alien from Uncanny X-Men.

The fact that the Phoenix manifested itself in the first mutant girl right after House of M is significant, there has always been a connection between the mutants and the Phoenix.

In fact, it was just when Hope first manifested her Phoenix powers that the first mutants since House of M (Lights) began to manifest, the connection was evident, the Phoenix was making more mutants. More Phoenix = More mutants it's not something irrational.






Earth was lucky that it was the Phoenix and not the Celestials that were angered by the unnatural stagnation in Earth's evolution.

[Ichijinijisanji]

Hope needed her Lights to control the Phoenix, as explained in a tie-in. When she made contact with the Phoenix on the Moon she didn't have her Lights, so she couldn't control it. If the Phoenix had reached Utopia, she could have controlled it.

Cyclops knew that the Avengers would come for Hope, Cable explained it to him and showed him what would happen in the future if the Avengers captured Hope. Spoiler: Bad news.

And Phoenix can't be Dark Phoenix without a host. Dark Phoenix is born of human desire. The Phoenix exploding planets is not Dark Phoenix, it is part of its natural role in the big cosmic scheme, just like Galactus. Wolverine hinted to Cap that it was impossible to control the Phoenix, which if they had deigned to ask Rachel, who lived in the exact same building, they would know this is not true.

If the Avengers had not intervened, the Phoenix would have reached Utopia, Hope would have controlled it with the help of her Lights, would have saved the mutant race, and all would have ended peacefully.

No one knew about the lights being required. Even when the phoenix 5 said they would prepare hope for it, it didn't work out like that. Even in the end it didn't work out like that with the lights saying they'd go with hope or bringing it up to the avengers or hope like in wolverine and the x-men 15. They never even communicated it to her later instead trying the Iron-fist/wanda training. That information stayed in the tie in.

Cable was going from 1 possible future. He was wrong. The avengers getting hope worked out because they were able to train her. Even scott was operating on bad information and lack of it.

Phoenix does not randomly go about destroying planets on its path. Rachel never had to deal with a phoenix like that. Closest she came to was with the beyonder but that's it. Phoenix in rachel also made a distinction between her and galactus, indicating that her destroying the shiar sun was the exception rather than her destroying planets being part of her normal cosmic role and that galactus' destruction far exceeded hers.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Wasn’t one of the 5 lights dead at the time of AvX?

And UNIT made it clear that he was testing to see what would happen if Hope didn’t have the lights with her.

[ComeOnBunny]

Wasn’t one of the 5 lights dead at the time of AvX?

And UNIT made it clear that he was testing to see what would happen if Hope didn’t have the lights with her.

Zero wasn't dead and is still alive he reappeared in the Storm series.