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  1. #61
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwazer07 View Post
    A lot of women see Harley Quinn as a Feminist and empowerment symbol. I ask "Why?! Oh Lord, Why?".
    Well, people see Catwoman and Poison Ivy as feminist and symbols of empowerment even when they're depicted as criminals who enjoy committing crimes and outwitting heroes...

  2. #62
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    Harley is the same as Power Girl and maybe deathstroke, shallow props for raw fun/coolness(not that pg is cool) or shameless design appeal to men or women.

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwazer07 View Post
    A lot of women see Harley Quinn as a Feminist and empowerment symbol. I ask "Why?! Oh Lord, Why?".
    It's not because Harley is a good person, it's because Harley got away from the Joker and built a life of her own.

    Most people have no idea what domestic violence situations are like. The emotional conflict, the fear, the social judgement and lack of support, etc. Ignorant people say "well why don't the victims just leave?" but it's not nearly so simple or easy as that. I mean hell, a judge recently told a rape victim that she should've kept her legs closed. A f*cking judge. It'd take a college length paper to cover all the crap that gets in the way of DV victims escaping their situation. You really think there's an overabundance of help and support for women who are beaten by their husbands and boyfriends? There isn't. What there is, is a lot of fear. These women usually have few options; no money (because their partner controlled the finances), no friends or family (because the partner drove wedges in those relationships), no job, or at least not one that can sustain an independent lifestyle, no car, etc. The cops are very little help and as often as not are an actual hindrance. The court system isn't a help. And then you add in the emotional conflict; the victims usually do love their abuser, which yeah that's dumb, but you can't help how you feel right? They're scared, most of the time they don't want to leave they just want the abuse to stop, and they're traumatized into thinking it's all their fault. A lot of the time, they think they're safer staying than trying to leave. Their husband might beat them at home, but the victims worry that if they try to leave, they'll be killed.

    And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So yeah, Harley managing to get away and build her own life? For a lot of women that's an inspiration. Harley might be a killer and a psychopath, but women stuck in DV situations are told by cops to just not make their husband angry, to try and work things out. The court tells them the same thing, and if the abuser is punished at all, it's a slap on the wrist. You really think a victim of DV gives two sh*ts about Harley beating up cops and judges? Those women would likely want to do the same if they could get away with it, and who could blame them? Those people aren't part of the solution in most DV cases, but part of the problem. So yeah, women who have been through DV, they don't see Harley as a villain attacking the fabric of society, they see a woman who got out and then did whatever the f*ck she wants whether people like it or not. To them, that's inspiring. Not the crimes per se, but the fact that Harley no longer allows others to define her or her actions. She's still a psychopath, but she's her own psychopath and for DV victims who have had their entire lives controlled by others for long stretches of time? Being your own monster sounds a hell of a lot better than being someone else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I ask the same question when someone says Batman is a role model and a good father.
    Yeah, Batman has become a real d-bag. I miss the Bronze Age guy, who you could respect. Modern Batman is a psychopath with few redeeming qualities.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, people see Catwoman and Poison Ivy as feminist and symbols of empowerment even when they're depicted as criminals who enjoy committing crimes and outwitting heroes...
    That's precisely why some people find characters like Catwoman and Ivy empowering.

  5. #65
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    That's precisely why some people find characters like Catwoman and Ivy empowering.
    Yeah, I think it was writer Margueritte Bennett who said at a convention that she latched onto the female villains in B:TAS more then other female characters.
    Yeah, Batman has become a real d-bag. I miss the Bronze Age guy, who you could respect. Modern Batman is a psychopath with few redeeming qualities.
    Modern Batman isn't consistent enough to where I could say that's his defining characterization.

  6. #66

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    I think Harley is a great character-at least conceptually. But the OP does provide valid criticism. Hell if you think about it, the Joker was HER patient, by all standards, she had power over him and still fell for his spell, so even then, there’s a lot more to it than the the battered spouse analogy. But she is an intriguing and endearing character in spite of and I’d argue in some ways because she’s neither a true victim nor a true villain. As is some the real life cases, she’s more complex than that. And I think that’s sometimes rare with female characters you try to categorize. And it’s a delicate dynamic....Injustice fucked up by going too far and making her an accomplis to nuking a city via a bomb wired to a pregnant lady’s heartbeat. Or the time she put bombs ins children’s video games. But she should still be capable of some inexcusable evil shit like helping Joker take out Robin. In many ways the problem with Injustice Harley isn’t what she did, but how characters like Batman and Green Arrow tolerated her despite the immense amount of blood on her hands-but even then helping nuke a city should be the point of no return not the “wake up call” or whatever Injustice made it out to be for Harley. Which is why I’m talking about her character conceptually. She’s a tricky character, maybe one at her best as a chaotically neutral character. One you “hate to love,” so to speak.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 05-30-2020 at 12:34 PM.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I think Harley is a great character-at least conceptually. But the OP does provide valid criticism. Hell if you think about it, the Joker was HER patient, by all standards, she had power over him and still fell for his spell, so even then, there’s a lot more to it than the the battered spouse analogy.
    There is a flip side to the battered spouse, and that is the pattern of thought that a woman's true love can redeem and save a bad man.

    Now, the original Mad Love didn't pick up that thing, but I can easily see that many women could see and project that pattern of thought onto Harley. And Sejic made it explicit in Harleen, and I think adding that element made his Harleen far more human and understandable than the rather simplistic Harleen of Mad Love.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    There is a flip side to the battered spouse, and that is the pattern of thought that a woman's true love can redeem and save a bad man.

    Now, the original Mad Love didn't pick up that thing, but I can easily see that many women could see and project that pattern of thought onto Harley. And Sejic made it explicit in Harleen, and I think adding that element made his Harleen far more human and understandable than the rather simplistic Harleen of Mad Love.
    I think Mad Love did use that in the sense that Harleen thought she was going to be the one to cure Joker or understand him, which is why she even bothered to talk with him in the first place, but then she fell in love with him and his way of life and got swayed to a life of crime (I haven't read Harleen so I'm not sure if this is how their take developed).

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I ask the same question when someone says Batman is a role model and a good father.
    This thread is about Harley, why shift attention to Batman? I've noticed when any character is criticized your go to response is "but what about Batman?" well not everything's about him, you don't have to always try and shift the focus onto him when someone dare say something bad about another character.

    Are people not allowed to wonder how a flat out villain is seen as a role model by so many people? And judging by this forum there are way more people who think Bruce is a shitty father and person than those who think he's some role model we should strive to be like so your point doesn't even really hold water.

    Call me when Batman gleefully helps mass murderers like the Joker in his evil schemes then we can act like Bruce is a worse role model than Harley.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    This thread is about Harley, why shift attention to Batman? I've noticed when any character is criticized your go to response is "but what about Batman?" well not everything's about him, you don't have to always try and shift the focus onto him when someone dare say something bad about another character.

    Are people not allowed to wonder how a flat out villain is seen as a role model by so many people? And judging by this forum there are way more people who think Bruce is a shitty father and person than those who think he's some role model we should strive to be like so your point doesn't even really hold water.

    Call me when Batman gleefully helps mass murderers like the Joker in his evil schemes then we can act like Bruce is a worse role model than Harley.
    Co-signed. It's really telling when some seem to think that Batman himself is the worst person in the entire Bat mythos, including the villains. Who cares what this or that person did just look how awful Batman is, it's all his fault. Excuses will be made for everybody but Batman. He's a terrible person, father, friend and hero, everything wrong will be laid at his feet and he's to blame for all the troubles that happen to the batfamily. This love affair some seem to have with Harley Quinn is interesting. By all accounts she is a all around terrible person who has committed terrible acts, but she gets a pass because she's a woman and some see her as a victim of the Joker. Never mind that she was 100% complicit in a lot of his crimes. Forget what Harley as done, what about Batman he's the problem. Same old story.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Mad Love did use that in the sense that Harleen thought she was going to be the one to cure Joker or understand him, which is why she even bothered to talk with him in the first place, but then she fell in love with him and his way of life and got swayed to a life of crime (I haven't read Harleen so I'm not sure if this is how their take developed).
    Plot-wise, there isn't that much difference between Mad Love and Harleen in how Harley's and Joker's relationship develops, but there is a huge shift in emphasis, in Harley's personality, and in how her emotional journey is portrayed.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    This thread is about Harley, why shift attention to Batman? I've noticed when any character is criticized your go to response is "but what about Batman?" well not everything's about him, you don't have to always try and shift the focus onto him when someone dare say something bad about another character.

    Are people not allowed to wonder how a flat out villain is seen as a role model by so many people? And judging by this forum there are way more people who think Bruce is a shitty father and person than those who think he's some role model we should strive to be like so your point doesn't even really hold water.

    Call me when Batman gleefully helps mass murderers like the Joker in his evil schemes then we can act like Bruce is a worse role model than Harley.
    If it means anything, I think both have issues making preventing them from being considered good role models.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's not because Harley is a good person, it's because Harley got away from the Joker and built a life of her own.

    Most people have no idea what domestic violence situations are like. The emotional conflict, the fear, the social judgement and lack of support, etc. Ignorant people say "well why don't the victims just leave?" but it's not nearly so simple or easy as that. I mean hell, a judge recently told a rape victim that she should've kept her legs closed. A f*cking judge. It'd take a college length paper to cover all the crap that gets in the way of DV victims escaping their situation. You really think there's an overabundance of help and support for women who are beaten by their husbands and boyfriends? There isn't. What there is, is a lot of fear. These women usually have few options; no money (because their partner controlled the finances), no friends or family (because the partner drove wedges in those relationships), no job, or at least not one that can sustain an independent lifestyle, no car, etc. The cops are very little help and as often as not are an actual hindrance. The court system isn't a help. And then you add in the emotional conflict; the victims usually do love their abuser, which yeah that's dumb, but you can't help how you feel right? They're scared, most of the time they don't want to leave they just want the abuse to stop, and they're traumatized into thinking it's all their fault. A lot of the time, they think they're safer staying than trying to leave. Their husband might beat them at home, but the victims worry that if they try to leave, they'll be killed.

    And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So yeah, Harley managing to get away and build her own life? For a lot of women that's an inspiration. Harley might be a killer and a psychopath, but women stuck in DV situations are told by cops to just not make their husband angry, to try and work things out. The court tells them the same thing, and if the abuser is punished at all, it's a slap on the wrist. You really think a victim of DV gives two sh*ts about Harley beating up cops and judges? Those women would likely want to do the same if they could get away with it, and who could blame them? Those people aren't part of the solution in most DV cases, but part of the problem. So yeah, women who have been through DV, they don't see Harley as a villain attacking the fabric of society, they see a woman who got out and then did whatever the f*ck she wants whether people like it or not. To them, that's inspiring. Not the crimes per se, but the fact that Harley no longer allows others to define her or her actions. She's still a psychopath, but she's her own psychopath and for DV victims who have had their entire lives controlled by others for long stretches of time? Being your own monster sounds a hell of a lot better than being someone else's.



    Yeah, Batman has become a real d-bag. I miss the Bronze Age guy, who you could respect. Modern Batman is a psychopath with few redeeming qualities.
    Thank you. This was enlightening. I still don't think Harley is a healthy role model but I understand her situation a little better. And also why she has a passionate dedicated fanbase willing to defend her.

  14. #74
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    This struck me because with the protests and anger with the murder of George Floyd. I can somehow understand being trapped and you just want to lash out. I am against violence but I can't really blame people for taking matters in their own hands. I think it's like Harley. For a woman trapped in a hellish relationship, it doesn't matter if you act like a hero. Your first priority is yourself. You want to be free. It's a human response.

  15. #75
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    Who cares if harley is a good role model.



    Or if Batman is a good role model...

    Harley is an interesting character and people can have a love affair with bad people, who do bad things...

    I mean Darth Vadar was loved long before he ever did anything redemptive...

    Darth Maul is a beloved character and he died evil...

    Heroes, antiheroes or straight up villians can be appealing to watch, and read about regardless of any good quality existing...

    My girlfriend loves watching murder mystery documentaries, she's currently watching the Epstein documentary...

    She spends hours daily watching serial killers, murders, rapists, go to jail, escape, commit suicide...

    She doesn't admire them but she loves to watch those mysterious cases of sex and violence unfold...

    Millions love that stuff...

    I don't enjoy harley cause she could one day be redeemed, or cause she might be a good guy or do good things.

    I enjoy harley because shes gorgeous, bat shit crazy, bashes things with a bat or a mallet, swears, steals and lies, is a jester and has a humorous tone to her adventures.... etc etc

    Harley doing detestable things and being evil is all part of te appeal of the character...

    Feel like a number of posters want her to be "likeable" or have turned away from a life of crime so they can start liking her.

    She's a twisted psychiatrist who was likely already psychotic before she met joker, fell for him, dated him, was abused and pushed to further points of madness and now seeks an identity of her own while she dances the line between ultra violent villian and seemingly heart of gold buried in a pile of dirt with an oh so slim possiblity of a redemptive arc....

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