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  1. #91
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    Once a character villain gets too popular they slowly get re-conned into being a saint. I hate it.

    Someday there is going to be a story explaining how Harley never killed anyone while dating the Joker just you wait
    This is just so stupid.

    Use superman as an example.

    How many evil superman stories exist? Must be at least a dozen or more...

    Honestly who cares if Harley is depicted as a good person or a hero... like who cares.

    We are always going to have variations on characters..


    Same reason lex get portrayed as a hero...

    Its just variety of stories...

    Same reason why joker has all these different back stories... and honestly he's never come across more sympathetic and sad then in Joaquin's portrayal as he does in the killing joke.. and i dont particularly like those back stories. But who cares, there is always variety, always reinventing and rewriting...

    Its why 80 years of comics has given us so many wildly different stories and characters...

    Cause dc let's writers be creative. Not tied down to just one version
    Last edited by Menacer; 06-01-2020 at 07:53 PM.

  2. #92
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Lobo, Luthor, Deathstroke, Harley all have been members of the Justice League or associated with heroes and become mentors to young heroes. No need to act like fans don't accept whatever whitewash DC has put out. This has been cemented since the 80s

    A victim of domestic violence is still a victim of domestic violence even if she is a criminal. Whether people choose to feel sympathy for her because of that fact is frankly irrelevant and ultimately anyone griping about that must have some severe lack of empathy.
    I mean most Batman rogues have sad backstories that compound a lot of their issues with mental illness that's why Batman sends his rogues to arkham asylum and not a regular prison like other heroes. He wants them rehabilitated not in jail forever
    Why are you even a fan of Batman and his mythos at this point


    Joker mentally manipulated Harley into allowing him to escape at that point she is basically a criminal lost all her accomplishments in life and almost wholly dependent on him. That's sad to some people then Joker drove her insane on top of that and made her just like him. Well now she is completely devoted to him.

    Then you take that story and you throw domestic violence and rampant abuse on top of that. Its not a bad thing that people feel sorry for her but of course people are free to feel sorry for any fictional character. Writers include these elements for a reason after all. Joker's abuse towards Harley and eventual emancipation from him is the sole reason she is empowering.
    That's a good story breaking the cycle of abuse
    No she is not a role model though because she caused her predicament
    Her life is the way it is because of her own choices with the Joker but she is empowering on some level because of the circumstances she lives with as a character.
    I mean, people have complained about Lobo, Luthor, and Deathstroke's involvement with the Justice League (although Deathstroke was just technically a member because of the situation in No Justice).

    I don't think people shouldn't feel sympathy for Harley for what The Joker does to her...but that it shouldn't mean ignoring all the crimes she's willingly committed and continues to commit, and act like that should mean the heroes treat her with kid gloves or just accept her.

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, people have complained about Lobo, Luthor, and Deathstroke's involvement with the Justice League (although Deathstroke was just technically a member because of the situation in No Justice).

    I don't think people shouldn't feel sympathy for Harley for what The Joker does to her...but that it shouldn't mean ignoring all the crimes she's willingly committed and continues to commit, and act like that should mean the heroes treat her with kid gloves or just accept her.
    Nobody on this forum is making threads about the problems with Deathstroke or Lobo

    This is always funny to me you all want Harley to be shunned and put in timeout or something
    Why wouldn't people accept her?
    If we go by current continuity her heroic actions are almost triple the villainous things she's done since the new 52 started. She's done very bad things no doubt but she will always suffer from mental illness and the Joker's influence on her evil actions is not to be ignored.



    Not to mention it is shown many times that Harley's POV is not the same as the readers. She views the world akin to looney tunes and does not fully process the violence she commits as that serious.

    No matter how you spin it no hero is going to look good to anyone outside the fringe minority that craves that story.

  4. #94
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Nobody on this forum is making threads about the problems with Deathstroke or Lobo
    As popular as they are, nobody as DC has ever touted them as a "pillar" on par with the Trinity or given them half the promotion Harley gets.

    This is always funny to me you all want Harley to be shunned and put in timeout or something
    Why wouldn't people accept her?
    If we go by current continuity her heroic actions are almost triple the villainous things she's done since the new 52 started. She's done very bad things no doubt but she will always suffer from mental illness and the Joker's influence on her evil actions is not to be ignored.
    I kind of doubt that, especially when most of her actions, even modern Harley, seem more out of self-interest then towards anything good.
    Not to mention it is shown many times that Harley's POV is not the same as the readers. She views the world akin to looney tunes and does not fully process the violence she commits as that serious.
    That's not necessarily a glowing recommendation in my opinion.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    As popular as they are, nobody as DC has ever touted them as a "pillar" on par with the Trinity or given them half the promotion Harley gets.
    Okay so Harley's popularity is the reason she's being presented as more heroic in the first place and she had to become her own franchise tier big for that to happen but what excuse do Lobo and Slade have for their heroic turns? If you say Harley hasn't "earned" her status then you certainly can't say anyone else has or ignore it. Lack of promotion? They are being featured in JL titles that's about as good as it gets at DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I kind of doubt that, especially when most of her actions, even modern Harley, seem more out of self-interest then towards anything good.
    Much like any comic book character that depends entirely on what books you are reading
    Suicide Squad = Heroic
    Her solo series/minis = slightly heroic/anti heroic
    crossovers/guest appearance= villainous
    The breakdown is very skewed towards her heroic qualities vs villainous imo

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Lobo, Luthor, Deathstroke, Harley all have been members of the Justice League or associated with heroes and become mentors to young heroes. No need to act like fans don't accept whatever whitewash DC has put out. This has been cemented since the 80s

    A victim of domestic violence is still a victim of domestic violence even if she is a criminal. Whether people choose to feel sympathy for her because of that fact is frankly irrelevant and ultimately anyone griping about that must have some severe lack of empathy.
    I mean most Batman rogues have sad backstories that compound a lot of their issues with mental illness that's why Batman sends his rogues to arkham asylum and not a regular prison like other heroes. He wants them rehabilitated not in jail forever
    Why are you even a fan of Batman and his mythos at this point


    Joker mentally manipulated Harley into allowing him to escape at that point she is basically a criminal lost all her accomplishments in life and almost wholly dependent on him. That's sad to some people then Joker drove her insane on top of that and made her just like him. Well now she is completely devoted to him.

    Then you take that story and you throw domestic violence and rampant abuse on top of that. Its not a bad thing that people feel sorry for her but of course people are free to feel sorry for any fictional character. Writers include these elements for a reason after all. Joker's abuse towards Harley and eventual emancipation from him is the sole reason she is empowering.
    That's a good story breaking the cycle of abuse
    No she is not a role model though because she caused her predicament
    Her life is the way it is because of her own choices with the Joker but she is empowering on some level because of the circumstances she lives with as a character.
    When were Lobo and Luthor ever mentors to young heroes? Deathstroke never joined the Justice League and Luthor and Lobo being on the League was met with criticism as well.

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    Once a character villain gets too popular they slowly get re-conned into being a saint. I hate it.
    A saint is probably a bit much, but there is an element of truth here. But I don't think it has much to do with popularity per se. Rather, once a side character gets popular and there is a push to make more material about that character, it's also very likely that we not only get to see more nuances of the character but also their own point of view.

    And no one is a villain of their own story.

    (Well, nearly no one. In Harleen, Sejic has Harleen believing that she is the heroine, but as Harley she knows that she is the villain. There are doubtless other exceptions.)

    Another factor is that some villains were set up with such motivations that once you examine them more closely or with a changed society, you realise that it was they who were fighting for the heroic causes. Magneto and Poison Ivy are probably the two main examples from comics. But it's not much of a factor in the case of Harley.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #98
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    Deathstroke is an example of that. After Judas Contract how a titan would not just stomp him into the ground is mindboggling at least. But even during the storyline they were not really subtil with showing how "evil and crazy" Terra was. I mean the smoking and the make-up for one. I would not have been surprised if she had kicked some dogs during that story. So shifting the blame is a time honored tradition in Comics.

  9. #99
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menacer View Post
    This is just so stupid.

    Use superman as an example.

    How many evil superman stories exist? Must be at least a dozen or more...

    Honestly who cares if Harley is depicted as a good person or a hero... like who cares.

    We are always going to have variations on characters..


    Same reason lex get portrayed as a hero...

    Its just variety of stories...

    Same reason why joker has all these different back stories... and honestly he's never come across more sympathetic and sad then in Joaquin's portrayal as he does in the killing joke.. and i dont particularly like those back stories. But who cares, there is always variety, always reinventing and rewriting...

    Its why 80 years of comics has given us so many wildly different stories and characters...

    Cause dc let's writers be creative. Not tied down to just one version
    I care when DC has been pushing Quinn as an anti-hero or straight-up hero but faces no consequences or fallout for any of her actions. Look at Injustice, she's just as responsible for Superman turning out the way he did as Joker was yet she's on the story-decreed good side, is a trusted lieutenant in Batman's faction, and the only people who actually point out what a monster she is are the Kents and Ra's al Ghul.

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I care when DC has been pushing Quinn as an anti-hero or straight-up hero but faces no consequences or fallout for any of her actions. Look at Injustice, she's just as responsible for Superman turning out the way he did as Joker was yet she's on the story-decreed good side, is a trusted lieutenant in Batman's faction, and the only people who actually point out what a monster she is are the Kents and Ra's al Ghul.
    Alternate continuities can do whatever they want that's the freedom they allow
    Harley Quinn tv show has her as a straight up villain
    The live action movies have her as a quasi anti hero
    The comics generally want her to be a hero

    If you want fallout and consequences that would have to stick for every character. Wally West killed so many people in Heroes in Crisis and then he got put in jail. Then DC immediately went to work redeeming him while the blood was still fresh on his body

    Hal Jordan killed basically the entire Lantern corps, then everyone trusted him again and now he's the top lantern

    This happens get over it

  11. #101
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I care when DC has been pushing Quinn as an anti-hero or straight-up hero but faces no consequences or fallout for any of her actions. Look at Injustice, she's just as responsible for Superman turning out the way he did as Joker was yet she's on the story-decreed good side, is a trusted lieutenant in Batman's faction, and the only people who actually point out what a monster she is are the Kents and Ra's al Ghul.
    I really hope your best example isn't Injustice, because that's largely accepted as a big pile of crap as far as character alignment and morality goes.

    Setting that story aside, what great acts of heroism has Harley performed?
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  12. #102
    Helping the Helpless Denirac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Alternate continuities can do whatever they want that's the freedom they allow
    Harley Quinn tv show has her as a straight up villain
    The live action movies have her as a quasi anti hero
    The comics generally want her to be a hero

    If you want fallout and consequences that would have to stick for every character. Wally West killed so many people in Heroes in Crisis and then he got put in jail. Then DC immediately went to work redeeming him while the blood was still fresh on his body

    Hal Jordan killed basically the entire Lantern corps, then everyone trusted him again and now he's the top lantern

    This happens get over it
    DC only went to redeem Wally West because Heroes in Crisis was despised.
    Wally West deserved better than Heroes in Crisis

    Pull List:

    DC: JUSTICE LEAGUE, JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK, JUSTICE LEAGUE ODYSSEY, ACTION COMICS, LEVIATHAN, LAST KNIGHT ON EARTH

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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    Once a character villain gets too popular they slowly get re-conned into being a saint. I hate it.

    Someday there is going to be a story explaining how Harley never killed anyone while dating the Joker just you wait
    They wouldn't go THAT far...they'd just find some way to blame it solely on the Joker, and instead of gleefully participating she'll have reservations of what Joker is doing, and gets forced to participate. That said...is there a reason why they decided to dump her in Joker's chemical bath? and shouldn't her hair be green too because of it? Also, due to being dipped in the chemicals, things that could excuse Harley (her mind was altered due to chemicals), can now be applied to Joker. Heck the Killing Joke tends to lean into Joker just being a decent person who driven to madness, so maybe he didn't know what he was doing when he was being abusive toward Harley (that's how insanity is supposed to work in fiction right?)

    Is it just me, or has Mr. Freeze been called out more recently (things like his embezzling are brought up more)...

  14. #104
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I care when DC has been pushing Quinn as an anti-hero or straight-up hero but faces no consequences or fallout for any of her actions. Look at Injustice, she's just as responsible for Superman turning out the way he did as Joker was yet she's on the story-decreed good side, is a trusted lieutenant in Batman's faction, and the only people who actually point out what a monster she is are the Kents and Ra's al Ghul.
    Thats largely just a case of my enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    As far as global conflicts go there are many historical instances where opposing sides team up to fight a more powerful evil.

    As for characters turning a blind eye. This happens again often in history. Hilters top scientists become Americas top scientists... etc etc...

    None of this is unusual behavior or exhibited only in comics. Factions, gangs, team up to face a larger threat...

    Nothing new here folks move along

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    Deathstroke is an example of that. After Judas Contract how a titan would not just stomp him into the ground is mindboggling at least. But even during the storyline they were not really subtil with showing how "evil and crazy" Terra was. I mean the smoking and the make-up for one. I would not have been surprised if she had kicked some dogs during that story. So shifting the blame is a time honored tradition in Comics.
    Slade getting a free pass and being justified by Wolfman was the beginning of the end of the Titans franchise.

    I'd argue that Terra should get a push as an anti hero because of the stupid and bizarre free pass that Slade got.
    Last edited by king81992; 06-02-2020 at 02:16 PM.

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