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  1. #106
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    They wouldn't go THAT far...they'd just find some way to blame it solely on the Joker, and instead of gleefully participating she'll have reservations of what Joker is doing, and gets forced to participate.
    Honestly, this is one of the biggest problems I've found with comicbook Harley Quinn in general, not just because of her hero turn.

    In the cartoon where she came from, Joker was far more an eccentric gangster. There was a lot more fun in what he did. It's easier to overlook the bad qualities in a guy that's just out having a good time.

    Comic book Joker, by the time Harley had gotten introduced was already at the level where killing an bus load of orphan and bathing in their blood wouldn't have been out of the norm.

    It's hard to see how Harley would have ever thought he was a good guy deep down and even harder to forgive her for going along with him.

  2. #107
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Okay so Harley's popularity is the reason she's being presented as more heroic in the first place and she had to become her own franchise tier big for that to happen but what excuse do Lobo and Slade have for their heroic turns? If you say Harley hasn't "earned" her status then you certainly can't say anyone else has or ignore it. Lack of promotion? They are being featured in JL titles that's about as good as it gets at DC.
    Lobo and Deathstroke never really had heroic turns so much as they either found themselves in a begrudging position of working for the heroes or just kind of stuck around. But people still complained about it.
    Much like any comic book character that depends entirely on what books you are reading
    Suicide Squad = Heroic
    Her solo series/minis = slightly heroic/anti heroic
    crossovers/guest appearance= villainous
    The breakdown is very skewed towards her heroic qualities vs villainous imo
    I don't think the Suicide Squad counts as "heroic," they're only doing it because they want to get out of prison and the government is forcing them to. Would you call Deadshot and Captain Boomerang heroes?

    The actual heroes on the team are usually few and far between. I mean, there was one story where Harley basically rubbed it in Kid Flash's face that they killed/kidnapped somebody and he couldn't stop them and he took issue with OG!Wally telling him that there wasn't anything they could do about the Suicide Squad.
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Slade getting a free pass and being justified by Wolfman was the beginning of the end of the Titans franchise.

    I'd argue that Terra should get a push as an anti hero because of the stupid and bizarre free pass that Slade got.
    I don't know if the against all reason attempt to redeem Slade needs to make up for Terra being an awful person. It's kind of part of who she is.

  3. #108

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    I liked her in Gotham City Sirens, and some animated movies. But for the most part, her best stick is being Joker's abused girlfriend. She should be relatively harmless otherwise.

  4. #109
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uchihafanboy View Post
    I liked her in Gotham City Sirens, and some animated movies. But for the most part, her best stick is being Joker's abused girlfriend. She should be relatively harmless otherwise.
    What about the New R rated animated cartoon. Its on the second seasons now. Love its off beat humor.

  5. #110
    Northern Lights Beaubier's Avatar
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    I was a longtime Harley fan. I liked her as the unhinged but lovable goofball with a violent streak. DC lost me with her around the same time they made her look like a Juggalette, as yeah. They tried super hard to make her edgy and the humor became more Lady Deadpool than Harley. I haven’t read much with HQ in it since. Honestly thought the movie did a better job than the last comics I read, as far as her personality. Also been enjoying the cartoon series.

    Don’t know what HQ has been like in the comics lately, don’t know if I care either.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Slade getting a free pass and being justified by Wolfman was the beginning of the end of the Titans franchise.

    I'd argue that Terra should get a push as an anti hero because of the stupid and bizarre free pass that Slade got.
    That is true.

    And it is really telling that This Terra did never come back. I mean she and Uncle Ben must be the only ones that happened to?

  7. #112
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    I feel a little tired of her too. Something that I would have not expected initially when I said Congratulations. You are free from the Joker influence..

    DC is obsessed in put her EVERYWHERE.. Even without read her comics(because I don´t like her) you can find her in some comics because is another deadpool and DC can put her in unexpected places.

    Now is in Birds Of Prey replacing Batgirl.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    That is true.

    And it is really telling that This Terra did never come back. I mean she and Uncle Ben must be the only ones that happened to?
    Terra came back in Priest's Deathstroke. That run was good because Priest didn't pretend that Slade did nothing wrong.

  9. #114
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    My favorite Harley was in the original Batman the Animated Series. She was a ditz but she had charm and she was deadly.

    For Modern Times? I definitely know what Harley Quinn Material I don't like reading/watching
    - Don't make her a hero
    - Don't make her some 'female arch-hero' type
    - Do not place Harley Quinn in a team of heroes or group her with popular heroes

    Everybody I know who loves Harley loves her because she's far from perfect. Guys like her because she's the stereotypical crazy ex. Girls like her because "They want to go full Harley Quinn" on somebody.

    Keep Harley crazy, unpredictable, a doofus, and definitely an anti-hero. She's a pest. She'll fight both heroes and villains.

    Not sure if this was a Harley Story, but wasn't there a time where she was 'recovering' from a breakup with the Joker so she decides to crash a rich bachelor auction and nearly kidnaps Bruce Wayne?

    That's the Harley I enjoy reading. Keep her a wild card.

  10. #115
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    I don’t mind Harley as long as she’s not a liability towards other characters I like. Her cartoon is fine for me, because she’s an anti-heroine supervillain in a world of villains with a goofy world chemistry. I also don’t really mind her comic, or her acting as a character in regular comics that the heroes would try to arrest or only barely tolerate. I don’t even mind something like her being a member of Batman’s team in the Injustice universe, because she’s still ranked below the other heroes.

    I just don’t like it when she’d embarrassing the Trinity for no good reason, or when Black Canary and Cass are having their heroism removed so they can follow her as a team leader for some reason.
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  11. #116
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I really hope your best example isn't Injustice, because that's largely accepted as a big pile of crap as far as character alignment and morality goes.

    Setting that story aside, what great acts of heroism has Harley performed?
    She gave us baby Clayface hand and Gordon.

    I'll never forget that little guy.

    I'll admit I used to flip flop on if I liked Harley, with my favorite iteration being a woman broken who tried to get free but ended up running to another master of manipulation in Ivy, almost destined to be drawn to dominating personalities (though Ivy was certainly a lot nicer to her). There was some real tragedy to her and it was a compelling read. Wanting to see her overcome abuse while also wanting her to pay for her many crimes was great emotional conflict, much like Freeze. She was great.

    Then she blew up some kids in the New 52. Hated her after that, but it's retconned out now I think...

    And now I feel like I'd like her more if it didn't mean Ivy was relegated to Harley's girlfriend and nothing else. If Ivy could still star in her own books and bring Gotham to it's knees, by all means keep them together, but that hasn't been the case (it was revealed editorial thought a more prominent Ivy may dilute the brand, if I recall) so I dislike Harley for contributing to the marginalization of a character I like better.

    And now she's muscling in on the Birds of Prey, stealing Barbara's spot. Get her out of there.

    Overall, on her own, whatever. Hit or miss.

    As a Power Girl, Ivy and BoP fan? Getting real tired of Harley Quinn butting in all the damn time.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-04-2020 at 10:13 PM.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    She gave us baby Clayface hand and Gordon.

    I'll never forget that little guy.

    I'll admit I used to flip flop on if I liked Harley, with my favorite iteration being a woman broken who tried to get free but ended up running to another master of manipulation in Ivy, almost destined to be drawn to dominating personalities (though Ivy was certainly a lot nicer to her). There was some real tragedy to her and it was a compelling read. Wanting to see her overcome abuse while also wanting her to pay for her many crimes was great emotional conflict, much like Freeze. She was great.

    Then she blew up some kids in the New 52. Hated her after that, but it's retconned out now I think...

    And now I feel like I'd like her more if it didn't mean Ivy was relegated to Harley's girlfriend and nothing else. If Ivy could still star in her own books and bring Gotham to it's knees, by all means keep them together, but that hasn't been the case (it was revealed editorial thought a more prominent Ivy may dilute the brand, if I recall) so I dislike Harley for contributing to the marginalization of a character I like better.

    And now she's muscling in on the Birds of Prey, stealing Barbara's spot. Get her out of there.

    Overall, on her own, whatever. Hit or miss.

    As a Power Girl, Ivy and BoP fan? Getting real tired of Harley Quinn butting in all the damn time.
    Even if they remove Harley from BoP, it doesn't mean Barbara will return to the team. At least not in the capacity fans of that idea would want.

  13. #118
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    And now she's muscling in on the Birds of Prey, stealing Barbara's spot. Get her out of there.

    Overall, on her own, whatever. Hit or miss.

    As a Power Girl, Ivy and BoP fan? Getting real tired of Harley Quinn butting in all the damn time.
    What's up with the BoP book anyway? It's out of continuity, I'm told? I was interested until I saw Harls there. I'm fine with her having her federal record cleaned by her time in the Squad, and I'm okay with heroes putting up with her short-term when their paths cross (assuming Harley isn't doing anything super awful at the time, which is usually the case). But running with the Birds is going over the line.

    My thing is, all the talk in recent years about Harley being made into a hero....it's not there. At least not that I've seen. She's not on any hero's most wanted list anymore, and she's run across some heroes here and there who really wish it were anyone but Harls....but she's not a hero and has not done heroic things. Fans just seem to think "she's a solo act now and isn't being actively hunted by Batman so she must be a hero!" which is largely just BS, when you look at what Harls has done since leaving Joker. But running with the Birds? That's heroic, and that's stepping over the line for me.

    But as I understand it, that new BoP book is just a cash grab made to line up with the movie and is self-contained, so I can happily ignore it same as I can ignore DC Super Hero Girls and Injustice (as far as legit characterization goes). But if BoP is in continuity then.....what the F**k, DC?

    As for Ivy, I'm really not a fan of quality female villains becoming popular and then getting pushed into heroic content. But is that happening to Ivy because of Harley, or is Harls just a easy narrative vehicle for Ivy's transformation? Bit of both maybe? I feel like this is a problem in comics that goes beyond just Harls.
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  14. #119
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    As for Ivy, I'm really not a fan of quality female villains becoming popular and then getting pushed into heroic content. But is that happening to Ivy because of Harley, or is Harls just a easy narrative vehicle for Ivy's transformation? Bit of both maybe? I feel like this is a problem in comics that goes beyond just Harls.
    With Ivy, I think you have the causality backwards. I think Ivy became a lot more popular among new groups as her motivations and characterisation was deepened, and she became more of a tragic hero.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #120
    Spectacular Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    My favorite Harley was in the original Batman the Animated Series. She was a ditz but she had charm and she was deadly.

    For Modern Times? I definitely know what Harley Quinn Material I don't like reading/watching
    - Don't make her a hero
    - Don't make her some 'female arch-hero' type
    - Do not place Harley Quinn in a team of heroes or group her with popular heroes

    Everybody I know who loves Harley loves her because she's far from perfect. Guys like her because she's the stereotypical crazy ex. Girls like her because "They want to go full Harley Quinn" on somebody.

    Keep Harley crazy, unpredictable, a doofus, and definitely an anti-hero. She's a pest. She'll fight both heroes and villains.

    Not sure if this was a Harley Story, but wasn't there a time where she was 'recovering' from a breakup with the Joker so she decides to crash a rich bachelor auction and nearly kidnaps Bruce Wayne?

    That's the Harley I enjoy reading. Keep her a wild card.
    Kidnapping Bruce from a bachelor auction sounds like something from her first solo series, which was a real hoot. That was the first time we saw her as a character away from the Joker, the anti hero shift was done pretty fairly. Her bad deeds weren't too bad and they weren't trivialized. People treated her with mistrust, as they should. The tone was that she was having fun after a bad break up.
    That Harley I loved. I'm not as crazy about New 52 Harley.

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