The Problem With Harley Quinn

[Bored at 3:00AM]

No offence but that isn't the entire Justice League, just three members.

Personally I adore that scene. It's good to see Batman get taken down a few pegs.

Yes, this is hardly an example of Harley taking down the entire Justice League. She was able to stall the Trinity just long enough to get away. That's it. Far less impressive villains than Harley have managed that feat over the decades.

[Xero Kaiser]

I'm in complete agreement with the OP.

It's why I can't stand Harley outside of the DCAU.

[The_Lurk]

I'm sure this topic or something similar has come up, but I'm not sure where those threads are. I just want to throw this out there.

I was never that into Harley Quinn as a character, but nowadays I just find her insufferable. Thinking about why she's come to bothers me so much, I realized she really went downhill when DC decided she should be "empowered" while maintaining her identity as "Joker's abused girlfriend."

In the old cartoons and her initial comic appearances, if Harley was portrayed as an empowered figure, it was because/after she broke away from the Joker. She'd either pair up with Poison Ivy or be somewhat of an anti-hero, but either way, she was at worst mischievous.
A villain, but a relatively harmless one you could see heroes tolerating if they found themselves forced to cooperate with her.

But then, pretty much around the New 52, they decided Harley should be "empowered" but still "Joker's girlfriend"...
.

... eh? IIRC she starts as his ex right from the first HQ issue and stays that way. Did she not? Did they got together late in the run?

????

[Frontier]

Yes, this is hardly an example of Harley taking down the entire Justice League. She was able to stall the Trinity just long enough to get away. That's it. Far less impressive villains than Harley have managed that feat over the decades.

I dunno. If it was just Batman on his own, but I have a hard time believing someone of her capabilities could escape the Trinity.

[qwazer07]

I just hate she is pushed as much as Batman and Joker. The true trinity of DC is Batman, Joker and Harley. Big reason why people complain DC is mostly Batman. Marvel pushes their B and C listers more. DC retcons them.

[Menacer]

I dunno. If it was just Batman on his own, but I have a hard time believing someone of her capabilities could escape the Trinity.

Why is Harley so much more incapable then

The Penguin? Crime boss
Two Face? Ex DA... no special abilities
Catwoman? A thief
Scare crow? Scientist of fear
...
Honestly this thread is ridiculous... its just a hate on Harley with really unsound reasoning..


If Batman's rogues can take Batman on, then there is no reason Harley cant taken Batman on...

If Catwoman can escape Batman or Superman...

No reason Harley cant out wit the gang once in a while.

[Frontier]

Why is Harley so much more incapable then

The Penguin? Crime boss
Two Face? Ex DA... no special abilities
Catwoman? A thief
Scare crow? Scientist of fear
...
Honestly this thread is ridiculous... its just a hate on Harley with really unsound reasoning..


If Batman's rogues can take Batman on, then there is no reason Harley cant taken Batman on...

If Catwoman can escape Batman or Superman...

No reason Harley cant out wit the gang once in a while.

Again, I said Batman on his own is a different story then having the entire Trinity there.

[Menacer]

Again, I said Batman on his own is a different story then having the entire Trinity there.

Even that logic is flawed.

I mean why can batman take on the whole JL in one story and in another be infective against a rogues gang, or some mobsters.

Why can he take on Darkseid but joker... a lame failed comedian is some how his greatest threat...

The answer why Harley can dupe the trinity is the same reason batman can take on superman..


Its a comic book.

Honestly if a being like superman existed no amount of Kryptonite could stop him.

Blast it with laser vision. Destroy batman.

Poison ivy took down superman in Hush

Plausible?

[John Venus]

No offence but that isn't the entire Justice League, just three members.

Personally I adore that scene. It's good to see Batman get taken down a few pegs.

Username checks out.

[Frontier]

Even that logic is flawed.

I mean why can batman take on the whole JL in one story and in another be infective against a rogues gang, or some mobsters.

Why can he take on Darkseid but joker... a lame failed comedian is some how his greatest threat...

The answer why Harley can dupe the trinity is the same reason batman can take on superman..


Its a comic book.

Honestly if a being like superman existed no amount of Kryptonite could stop him.

Blast it with laser vision. Destroy batman.

Poison ivy took down superman in Hush

Plausible?

I mean, Batman's feats sometimes stretch credibility, but I don't think that makes what Harley pulls off any less of an issue.

[Menacer]

I mean, Batman's feats sometimes stretch credibility, but I don't think that makes what Harley pulls off any less of an issue.

There are endlessly improbable and Implausible characters and scenarios.

Batman is hugely Implausible... no way batman can practically exist in a world of super powered villians and heroes.

As far as the scene from a COMIC BOOK.

Tom King
Heroes in Crisis

The scene
The battle everyone is so upset about is not a fight at all.
Early on the heroes ask if Batman still has a weapon to take down superman. Batman says no.

That scene with harley specifically reveals batman is a liar and cant be trusted.

Breakdown

Issue 1
So harley and booster gold wake up. Accusations fly and Harley is convinced Booster did the killing.

Issue 2
Starts with Ivy's confession to Sanctuary. Ivy begins to say she shouldnt be here but "Harley said--" harley then interrupts Ivy. Ivy says you shouldnt be here, you have to be picked or invited.

Jump ahead
Harley goes to penguin for a "hide out"

She plays cards waiting for "everyone" to show up.

She is playing poker with a penguin. The trinity appears. She's unsurprised. She was expecting them.

She taunts Batman, you ARE the greatest detective, i got a "safe" house from the gossipiest crook, she planned this to meet them as quick as possible she taunts, i am trying to "hide"

She taunte them all

Wonder woman asks what happened to sanctuary.

Lets not forget Harley is a psychiatrist who pursued psychiatry to understand her own broken family... and now she studies the broken heroes.

What better villian then an ex psychiatrist in a story about a computer psychiatrist.... no better choice then Harley.


King isnt dumb, he chose harley for a reason.

So wonder woman asks what happened to sanctuary.

Harley distracts her with a hug and blames booster gold

She steals the lasso from ww

Launches in the air, batman states he has Harley, harley sings a song about heroes going to sea in a tiny bowl.

Harley lassos Batman. SUPERMAN is about to break things up BUT batman stops him verbally SUPERMAN HOLD!

superman protests but then stops.

Harley immediately asks batman with the lasso of truth to reveal his secret weapon to fight superman...

At this point neither superman or ww are trying to stop anything.

Superman protests, batman has nothing.

The scene is all psychological, its about if batman is a truther... or a liar.

Before superman can even finish defending Batmans honesty-- batman blurts out

There is Kryptonite in my belt.

Ww is shocked batman was lying... what else has he lied about, what weapon may he have to fight ww... is there a back door to sanctuary.

Harley pulls the Kryptonite from the belt pouch.

Superman does not even want to fight. And neither does ww.

Harleya huge massive attack isnt the lasso, or the Kryptonite... it is the LIE. The Psychological damage batman has just done to his friends. He is lying. He is not a true friend... friend or enemy... what is batmans stance.

Harley says goodbye. A reminder Booster did it!

The very next page is ww describing being stabbed in the side.

How she cant sharew with Sanctuary. How she will bite her lip instead.

Ie keep silent about batmans betrayal...



So why exactly is this scene so outlandish...

Frankly its pretty brilliant.

Your just reading it as some dumb fight. Rather then an investigation. Into harley.into batman. Into the motives of everyone. Everything.

[Frontier]

There are endlessly improbable and Implausible characters and scenarios.

Batman is hugely Implausible... no way batman can practically exist in a world of super powered villians and heroes.

As far as the scene from a COMIC BOOK.

Tom King
Heroes in Crisis

The scene
The battle everyone is so upset about is not a fight at all.
Early on the heroes ask if Batman still has a weapon to take down superman. Batman says no.

That scene with harley specifically reveals batman is a liar and cant be trusted.

Breakdown

Issue 1
So harley and booster gold wake up. Accusations fly and Harley is convinced Booster did the killing.

Issue 2
Starts with Ivy's confession to Sanctuary. Ivy begins to say she shouldnt be here but "Harley said--" harley then interrupts Ivy. Ivy says you shouldnt be here, you have to be picked or invited.

Jump ahead
Harley goes to penguin for a "hide out"

She plays cards waiting for "everyone" to show up.

She is playing poker with a penguin. The trinity appears. She's unsurprised. She was expecting them.

She taunts Batman, you ARE the greatest detective, i got a "safe" house from the gossipiest crook, she planned this to meet them as quick as possible she taunts, i am trying to "hide"

She taunte them all

Wonder woman asks what happened to sanctuary.

Lets not forget Harley is a psychiatrist who pursued psychiatry to understand her own broken family... and now she studies the broken heroes.

What better villian then an ex psychiatrist in a story about a computer psychiatrist.... no better choice then Harley.


King isnt dumb, he chose harley for a reason.

So wonder woman asks what happened to sanctuary.

Harley distracts her with a hug and blames booster gold

She steals the lasso from ww

Launches in the air, batman states he has Harley, harley sings a song about heroes going to sea in a tiny bowl.

Harley lassos Batman. SUPERMAN is about to break things up BUT batman stops him verbally SUPERMAN HOLD!

superman protests but then stops.

Harley immediately asks batman with the lasso of truth to reveal his secret weapon to fight superman...

At this point neither superman or ww are trying to stop anything.

Superman protests, batman has nothing.

The scene is all psychological, its about if batman is a truther... or a liar.

Before superman can even finish defending Batmans honesty-- batman blurts out

There is Kryptonite in my belt.

Ww is shocked batman was lying... what else has he lied about, what weapon may he have to fight ww... is there a back door to sanctuary.

Harley pulls the Kryptonite from the belt pouch.

Superman does not even want to fight. And neither does ww.

Harleya huge massive attack isnt the lasso, or the Kryptonite... it is the LIE. The Psychological damage batman has just done to his friends. He is lying. He is not a true friend... friend or enemy... what is batmans stance.

Harley says goodbye. A reminder Booster did it!

The very next page is ww describing being stabbed in the side.

How she cant sharew with Sanctuary. How she will bite her lip instead.

Ie keep silent about batmans betrayal...



So why exactly is this scene so outlandish...

Frankly its pretty brilliant.

Your just reading it as some dumb fight. Rather then an investigation. Into harley.into batman. Into the motives of everyone. Everything.

I guess it sounds as sensible as most of Heroes in Crisis.

[Ascended]

I guess it sounds as sensible as most of Heroes in Crisis.

I mean, it's comics so nothing really has to make sense. As long as the story itself is fun, other considerations are very much secondary.

But ultimately, bad stories do not justify other bad stories. Yeah, Batman has defeated the entire League, fought Darkseid, and done all this other stupid sh*t that no human, no matter how "well trained and equipped" should be capable of doing. The fact that writers have been allowed to tell stupid ass fanwank stories where Batman gets to punch above his pay grade does not make it okay for Harley to do the same. Yes, Bats and Harls are profitable and make a lot of money for DC. That's no reason to allow them to take a sh*t on everyone else when they really shouldn't be capable of it. It's like Pepsi commercials saying "Mountain Dew sucks! It's not as awesome as Pepsi! Drink Pepsi instead!"

Harley can escape Batman. Sure. She should never be able to escape Diana or Clark, much less both. But HiC is one of those bad stories that needs to be quarantined and ignored, not allowed to shape or influence anything else, considered a weird outlier for feats and characterizations, and ruled as non-admissible.

[The tall man]

I mean, it's comics so nothing really has to make sense. As long as the story itself is fun, other considerations are very much secondary.

But ultimately, bad stories do not justify other bad stories. Yeah, Batman has defeated the entire League, fought Darkseid, and done all this other stupid sh*t that no human, no matter how "well trained and equipped" should be capable of doing. The fact that writers have been allowed to tell stupid ass fanwank stories where Batman gets to punch above his pay grade does not make it okay for Harley to do the same. Yes, Bats and Harls are profitable and make a lot of money for DC. That's no reason to allow them to take a sh*t on everyone else when they really shouldn't be capable of it. It's like Pepsi commercials saying "Mountain Dew sucks! It's not as awesome as Pepsi! Drink Pepsi instead!"

Harley can escape Batman. Sure. She should never be able to escape Diana or Clark, much less both. But HiC is one of those bad stories that needs to be quarantined and ignored, not allowed to shape or influence anything else, considered a weird outlier for feats and characterizations, and ruled as non-admissible.

Given their abilities that have been presented throughout their comic existence Harley should not be able to escape or get the better of Batman. She doesn't have the training or strategic mindset to out think or outmaneuver him, and she is in no way a better fighter than him. So how does one rationalize this, by accepting she is just a wildcard who jobs out people above her weight class with the right amount of crazy. I don't know what was worse, Harley jobbing the trinity or Selina jobbing three Flashes. Yes comics demand some form of suspension of belief but how far do you take that before everything is viewed as a joke. Where is the line drawn, clearly not at Harley jobbing Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.

[batnbreakfast]

I mean, it's comics so nothing really has to make sense. As long as the story itself is fun, other considerations are very much secondary.

But ultimately, bad stories do not justify other bad stories. Yeah, Batman has defeated the entire League, fought Darkseid, and done all this other stupid sh*t that no human, no matter how "well trained and equipped" should be capable of doing. The fact that writers have been allowed to tell stupid ass fanwank stories where Batman gets to punch above his pay grade does not make it okay for Harley to do the same. Yes, Bats and Harls are profitable and make a lot of money for DC. That's no reason to allow them to take a sh*t on everyone else when they really shouldn't be capable of it. It's like Pepsi commercials saying "Mountain Dew sucks! It's not as awesome as Pepsi! Drink Pepsi instead!"

Harley can escape Batman. Sure. She should never be able to escape Diana or Clark, much less both. But HiC is one of those bad stories that needs to be quarantined and ignored, not allowed to shape or influence anything else, considered a weird outlier for feats and characterizations, and ruled as non-admissible.

Quoted for truth

Comparing power levels is the most boring topic in comics to me. Its like reading a story for splash pages. Things outlandish and cosmic can and should happen but theese universes should still be grounded in a set of rules that doesn't defy simple human logic. Everything else is bad writing