Thunderbolts #29 SPOILERS

[Fear Embodied]

Completely different, and fit with the story. The fairy king couldn't overwhelm Frank with his happiness magic because there's nothing that makes Frank happier than punishing bad guys, which he was in the process of doing.

Yeah, they do imply that with his 'this is what makes me happy' comment, followed by his fading smile as the fairy king dies. Still though, it should be brought up.

Ghost Rider has been getting jobbed around a lot recently, but this time I'm glad it was someone like Frank who beat him and not somebody like Squirrel Girl. (that hasn't happened yet has it?)

[Of Atlantis]

He used the penance stare after Frank thought he had killed Nick Fury for good. Now even after all of the intentions and hate, when Nick was dead in the dirt I'm sure that weighed on Frank. In the years since that story we've been shown and told Frank and Nick have known and worked with each other for a long time. When the Penance Stare 'worked on him' he was literally in a psychotic state and getting even worse, he thought he killed some innocents in the park, he was brainwashed into thinking an American Hero killed his family. He literally wasn't in his right mind. In the almost 20 years years Frank has evolved. I like him looking Ghostrider straight in his fiery eyes and saying I have no regrets.

Penance Stare doesn't work on those who commit murder as psychos though. That's a well known fact. And that would imply it affected him based on his past actions.

Besides, it's suggested in the issue that the Penance Stare didn't work because he regrets nothing, which would also be untrue. There's one big regret that defines the whole basis of his character.

[Fear Embodied]

Penance Stare doesn't work on those who commit murder as psychos though. That's a well known fact. And that would imply it affected him based on his past actions.

Besides, it's suggested in the issue that the Penance Stare didn't work because he regrets nothing, which would also be untrue. There's one big regret that defines the whole basis of his character.

Are you referring to the divorce twist from MAX?

[Of Atlantis]

Are you referring to the divorce twist from MAX?

His biggest regret is not being able to save his family I'd imagine.

[Fear Embodied]

His biggest regret is not being able to save his family I'd imagine.

I get that notion, but as a motive that's hardly ever brought up. Sure, in his original and earliest stories he was revenge driven, but as has been said since then is not about revenge it's about punishment. For all of the good parts and bad parts Remender's arc showed even though his family's death got him in this business they're not his driving force, at least not anymore. I don't think he does have much guilt left, but if this were the MAX version I'd agree with you.

[Zarathos022]

I think it was largely just a mechanism to get Blaze out of the picture so we can have the "new, young, hip, and politically correct!" Ghost Rider as the sole Rider of 616 for the time being.

As much as I hate the very idea of it, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the intention given Marvel's new habit of either killing off or screwing over established characters for the sake of tolerance. Just look what happened to Wolverine and Thor.

[Fear Embodied]

As much as I hate the very idea of it, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the intention given Marvel's new habit of either killing off or screwing over established characters for the sake of tolerance. Just look what happened to Wolverine and Thor.

Wolverine will be back eventually, Thor will once again have a penis one day. Bucky and Jason Todd told me so.

[Zarathos022]

Wolverine will be back eventually, Thor will once again have a penis one day. Bucky and Jason Todd told me so.

Until then I'd like to hold on to the old Ghost Rider as well as the new one.

[Jumpoff AKA JohnnyBlazed]

He used the penance stare after Frank thought he had killed Nick Fury for good. Now even after all of the intentions and hate, when Nick was dead in the dirt I'm sure that weighed on Frank. In the years since that story we've been shown and told Frank and Nick have known and worked with each other for a long time. When the Penance Stare 'worked on him' he was literally in a psychotic state and getting even worse, he thought he killed some innocents in the park, he was brainwashed into thinking an American Hero killed his family. He literally wasn't in his right mind. In the almost 20 years years Frank has evolved. I like him looking Ghostrider straight in his fiery eyes and saying I have no regrets.

It's not about regrets , it's about you feel all the pain that you have caused over the years. IF Hell fire had captain america horrified and had Tigra so scared she couldn't even face GR , I find it hard to believe that the F**Kin' Punisher can just shrug it off, I mean yeah in two years this story won't matter or get brought up but it is what it is.

[Chain and Pain]

I hope so, unless it's a case of writer miscommunication between the two and the October GR issue happens before this one. I hope not though, because that would mean this is how Johnny gets taken off the table to make way for the new kid. Johnny's 3 for 3 in getting jobbed since joining. Only reason I bothered to pick this up was because of him and I really wish I hadn't at this point.

God, tell me about it! I only picked this up because Soule's first issue with Blaze left a positive impression on me. Johnny seemed so savvy, witty, even wise - a complete turn-around from Ennis, Way, and (especially!) Williams' piss-poor characterizations of him. I figured that maybe Charles Soule's the one to FINALLY inject some much needed good developments into this GR's story. And now here we are... Once again, Johnny's stuck with a phoned-in creative team who only view him for cheapshots, and whatever story developments Soule may have planned for him gone down the drain. Sigh.

Is the GR mythos plagued by bad luck? Or is it simply because Marvel no longer respects, nor cares for the old Flameheads? The signs are all there, EVERY time: John keeps getting abused, misused, and practically stuck in character limbo. Dan barely even exists anymore. Only Jason Aaron seemed to care. Unlike Way, I actually felt he had something deep to tell... hinting at potential character-driven plots like John's family (how did they all die, anyway?) Alas, bad luck reared its ugly head before he could properly introduce his own stories, instead relegated to cleaning up Way's "Angels Gone Bad" mess.

History repeats itself with Thunderbolts. Goddamit, Marvel...

[Of Atlantis]

I get that notion, but as a motive that's hardly ever brought up. Sure, in his original and earliest stories he was revenge driven, but as has been said since then is not about revenge it's about punishment. For all of the good parts and bad parts Remender's arc showed even though his family's death got him in this business they're not his driving force, at least not anymore. I don't think he does have much guilt left, but if this were the MAX version I'd agree with you.

It doesn't have to be a primary motive necessarily. It just has to be there. Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that regret has nothing to do with the stare, but even if it did, it still wouldn't fly imo. Past portrayals of the stare don't even specify that the victim needs have killed the guilty. I mean, was Nick Fury innocent?

And the stare is by far not the only thing wrong with Ghost Rider's portrayal in this issue. It's been a rough few years for Ghost Rider fans. We've had to watch a lot of writers drop the ball with him and I know a few who had really high hopes for him in this run.

Is the GR mythos plagued by bad luck? Or is it simply because Marvel no longer respects, nor cares for the old Flameheads? The signs are all there, EVERY time: John keeps getting abused, misused, and practically stuck in character limbo. Dan barely even exists anymore. Only Jason Aaron seemed to care. Unlike Way, I actually felt he had something deep to tell... hinting at potential character-driven plots like John's family (how did they all die, anyway?) Alas, bad luck reared its ugly head before he could properly introduce his own stories, instead relegated to cleaning up Way's "Angels Gone Bad" mess.

History repeats itself with Thunderbolts. Goddamit, Marvel...

They just plain hate him. No writer seems to know anything about him or wants anything to do with him, so they just job him and throw gimmicks like replacing him with new Ghost Riders and stuff. Ketch gets off lucky. Least he doesn't have to be put through something like this. Two ongoings in a row and neither had him in the lead role. You'd think they would at least give a Blaze/Ketch a shot, especially after the disaster that was Alejandra, but instead they go with the exact same gimmicky formula a second time. Smh

[Chain and Pain]

They just plain hate him. No writer seems to know anything about him or wants anything to do with him, so they just job him and throw gimmicks like replacing him with new Ghost Riders and stuff. Ketch gets off lucky. Least he doesn't have to be put through something like this. Two ongoings in a row and neither had him in the lead role. You'd think they would at least give a Blaze/Ketch a shot, especially after the disaster that was Alejandra, but instead they go with the exact same gimmicky formula a second time. Smh

In a nutshell, so it seems.

What's sad is that there ARE competent writers out there who are more than happy to try and tap into his untold potential. For one there's Mark Millar, an admitted long-time fan (though I know he's got his detractors). But of course, Marvel won't have any of that. They always see fit to leave the "B-listers" for unproven recruits to do whatever they please. And for that slim chance a talented newcomer finds his mojo with GR? They end up hijacked into milking out more Avengers, Avengers, Avengers... and the likes.

I'm just glad this title's over soon. One tiny bit of comfort...

[Jumpoff AKA JohnnyBlazed]

I'm just glad this title's over soon. One tiny bit of comfort...

Preach!! But with this ending( I was dropping it soon as GR left anyway) and Blade Leaving M. Avengers my pull list just stands at Invincible and that's it.

[Scavenger]

Why is no one considering the big red retcon button is going to be pressed and this story will be reversed or be another dream or whatever....just like every other time the team has been killed off in this series...is this the third? fourth time?

Punisher kills the Leader. He kills Deadpool. He destroys Ghost Rider. He'll have to kill Electra next issue, since the story has to end with him confronting Ross. Obviously, none of these will stand.

(And the whole uber-Punisher...Someone upthread compared him to Bat-God...sigh)

[Bionder]

Punisher kills the Leader. He kills Deadpool. He destroys Ghost Rider. He'll have to kill Electra next issue, since the story has to end with him confronting Ross. Obviously, none of these will stand.

(And the whole uber-Punisher...Someone upthread compared him to Bat-God...sigh)

I don't see the whole uber-Punisher or any comparison with Bat-God. The only thing i though it was a "cheap" win was Frank using the chains to beat Ghost Rider grabbing the chains cover with hellfire, i don't buy it. As i said before it could work better if he used a chant like Leader did a few issues back. The others were nothing out of ordinary he might have sedate Deadpool before desmembrate him and a bullet is enough for Leader(2nd time) and Faustus.

I don't see him killing Elektra, they might fight and he will use a "trick", personally i don't think he can stand her in h2h. For the fans of Elektra, she has some sort of "enhanced" strenght?