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  1. #136
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I would love it if Morrison's rough n' rumble jeans & t-shirt Superman got his chance up on the big screen, but I think it's highly unlikely Warner Bros will allow that after Snyder's more deconstructed take failed to excite people. Unfortunately, I think they'll retreat to a more traditional crowd pleasing approach to Superman in order to steady the ship.

    Hope I'm wrong though.
    Part of me still hopes to see Morrison’s Action run make the jump to outside media, but right now I would settle for more of the New 52 Superman being present in the current incarnation. So pissed at Johns for how he treated him.

  2. #137
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I would love it if Morrison's rough n' rumble jeans & t-shirt Superman got his chance up on the big screen, but I think it's highly unlikely Warner Bros will allow that after Snyder's more deconstructed take failed to excite people. Unfortunately, I think they'll retreat to a more traditional crowd pleasing approach to Superman in order to steady the ship.

    Hope I'm wrong though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Part of me still hopes to see Morrison’s Action run make the jump to outside media, but right now I would settle for more of the New 52 Superman being present in the current incarnation. So pissed at Johns for how he treated him.
    It's a shame WB likely wouldn't go for it, because it actually is a great reconstructive take that celebrate all that Superman stands for. I can understand them being extra cautious and going back to the Donner formula after the last experimental take didn't get the results they wanted but...even that one was still Donner-ish.

  3. #138
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Its funny, I've been seeing that image posted a lot too and people being pretty shocked and finding it awesome that Superman was like this, taking stands against corrupt authorities and such. Its cool on one hand because it justifies the moves they were trying to make back then with bringing him back to his classic ways, and also sad that people are so shocked when they see him portrayed properly and that this direction was eventually abandoned. Just shows how long he's been mismanaged, and how dropping these elements was such a mistake. Its staggeringly more relevant right now in this very moment, but its always relevant to some degree, whether its plastered all over the news or not.
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  4. #139
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Its funny, I've been seeing that image posted a lot too and people being pretty shocked and finding it awesome that Superman was like this, taking stands against corrupt authorities and such. Its cool on one hand because it justifies the moves they were trying to make back then with bringing him back to his classic ways, and also sad that people are so shocked when they see him portrayed properly and that this direction was eventually abandoned. Just shows how long he's been mismanaged, and how dropping these elements was such a mistake. Its staggeringly more relevant right now in this very moment, but its always relevant to some degree, whether its plastered all over the news or not.
    I know right?

    People talk about how fiction doesn't really impact the world and how they don't want real issues explored in their escapist fantasy, etc etc etc. But what do you think made Superman the global icon he is? It was him, back in the day, sticking up for the average man, taking down people in authority who abused their power.

    The idea that we don't need that right now? Just the idea that some people would rather see Clark fight Metallo for the billionth time or stop an alien invasion rather than see a story that matters and speaks to the human experience and all the crap we're seeing right now? Makes me really damn sad. Smashes the Klan is probably the best reviewed Superman story of the last decade, and the Youtube morons who didn't like it seem to be the same people who boycotted Black Panther and Captain Marvel; in other words the people who Superman *should* piss off. That should be a real big god damn clue that *this* is the Superman we need. Not some impotent caricature of who he used to be, who never does anything worth talking about, but a guy who gets his hands dirty and struggles with the same sh*t the rest of us are. And I say this as someone who has generally enjoyed the last couple years of Super comics.

    I'm sick of all the "what if his politics don't align with your's?" bullsh*t; racism isn't a political issue. Being fed up with corruption in our system isn't a political issue. And if it is? I don't give a damn. I'd rather see a Superman who inspires some people and pisses off the rest than a Superman who just doesn't matter anymore.
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  5. #140
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I know right?

    People talk about how fiction doesn't really impact the world and how they don't want real issues explored in their escapist fantasy, etc etc etc. But what do you think made Superman the global icon he is? It was him, back in the day, sticking up for the average man, taking down people in authority who abused their power.

    The idea that we don't need that right now? Just the idea that some people would rather see Clark fight Metallo for the billionth time or stop an alien invasion rather than see a story that matters and speaks to the human experience and all the crap we're seeing right now? Makes me really damn sad. Smashes the Klan is probably the best reviewed Superman story of the last decade, and the Youtube morons who didn't like it seem to be the same people who boycotted Black Panther and Captain Marvel; in other words the people who Superman *should* piss off. That should be a real big god damn clue that *this* is the Superman we need. Not some impotent caricature of who he used to be, who never does anything worth talking about, but a guy who gets his hands dirty and struggles with the same sh*t the rest of us are. And I say this as someone who has generally enjoyed the last couple years of Super comics.

    I'm sick of all the "what if his politics don't align with your's?" bullsh*t; racism isn't a political issue. Being fed up with corruption in our system isn't a political issue. And if it is? I don't give a damn. I'd rather see a Superman who inspires some people and pisses off the rest than a Superman who just doesn't matter anymore.
    1,000,000%

    Even if Pak/Kuder's whole corrupt police storyline ended with a shadow monster or whatever being behind it all (thus playing into that stupid "few bad apples" argument) and undermining the whole vibe- it was still loads cooler than anything else. Those images were relevant back in 2015 and they're even more relevant now.

    Superman should stand for something.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 06-02-2020 at 02:32 PM.

  6. #141
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I know right?

    People talk about how fiction doesn't really impact the world and how they don't want real issues explored in their escapist fantasy, etc etc etc. But what do you think made Superman the global icon he is? It was him, back in the day, sticking up for the average man, taking down people in authority who abused their power.

    The idea that we don't need that right now? Just the idea that some people would rather see Clark fight Metallo for the billionth time or stop an alien invasion rather than see a story that matters and speaks to the human experience and all the crap we're seeing right now? Makes me really damn sad. Smashes the Klan is probably the best reviewed Superman story of the last decade, and the Youtube morons who didn't like it seem to be the same people who boycotted Black Panther and Captain Marvel; in other words the people who Superman *should* piss off. That should be a real big god damn clue that *this* is the Superman we need. Not some impotent caricature of who he used to be, who never does anything worth talking about, but a guy who gets his hands dirty and struggles with the same sh*t the rest of us are. And I say this as someone who has generally enjoyed the last couple years of Super comics.

    I'm sick of all the "what if his politics don't align with your's?" bullsh*t; racism isn't a political issue. Being fed up with corruption in our system isn't a political issue. And if it is? I don't give a damn. I'd rather see a Superman who inspires some people and pisses off the rest than a Superman who just doesn't matter anymore.


    And hey don't get me wrong, I love the straight up sci-fi and fantasy stuff too. But there's room for both. You can put metaphors in those stories too, or once in a while don't even have to do that much. But the core of the character should be all the above, always. Fighting against the corrupt authority, fighting alongside the true and pure in law enforcement, or just plain putting the fear of god against the corrupt normal guy beating his wife or abusing his/her children all of that stuff. That's a large part of the very soul. Superman will penetrate and attack the black heart of anything, long story short. If it ruffles a feather, perfect. It should. Heck maybe I'd come across a story that would ruffle mine That would just mean he's written doing what he should be written doing.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-02-2020 at 02:39 PM.
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  7. #142
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    And hey don't get me wrong, I love the straight up sci-fi and fantasy stuff too. But there's room for both.
    Absolutely. Sometimes ya just want to see Superman smash a bank robbing robot, right? Sometimes it's fine to just sit back and let him do something utterly crazy and whimsical and fantastic that has no bearing on the real world. Hell my favorite stand-alone issue in recent history is Pak's Bizarro World issue, and that was just a bunch of weird, silly stuff thrown on the page. Not *every* issue has to be a commentary. It's fine (preferable, even) to just let him punch monsters sometimes.

    But that can't be all he is. That's just shallow BS.

    And for the people who don't want Clark marching with peaceful protesters or scaring some corrupt jackass who abused his authority....don't read that issue. Skip it, grab the next story where he does something simple and safe and inoffensive. But if Superman isn't pissing off *anyone* then he's not saying anything that matters. Superman stood up against racism back in the 40's and 50's when that sh*t was far more accepted than it is today. Y'think that didn't piss people off? I'm sure it did. And I'm sure those people were saying "Superman should just be escapist fantasy and the real world issues should be left outside of comics." Those people were wrong then. The people saying it now are wrong too.

    And as for that "what if his politics aren't yours?" crap.....he's a fictional character. My ego can withstand not agreeing with a person who is not real. Besides, it doesn't take much effort to do some basic literary analysis and get a rough feel for what Clark's politics might be, and there *are* issues where I'd probably disagree with him. Never stopped me from loving the character. I can say the same for Green Arrow (too liberal) and Icon (too conservative) too; love them both, don't agree with their politics. If you need your fictional characters to reflect your views and you can't stand the idea that they might feel differently, then you need to grow the f*ck up. That's not a problem with the fictional character it's a problem with you.

    1,000,000%

    Superman should stand for something.
    Abso-f*cking-lutely.

    Bro-fists all around!!!
    Last edited by Ascended; 06-02-2020 at 07:31 PM.
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  8. #143
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Absolutely. Sometimes ya just want to see Superman smash a bank robbing robot, right? Sometimes it's fine to just sit back and let him do something utterly crazy and whimsical and fantastic that has no bearing on the real world. Hell my favorite stand-alone issue in recent history is Pak's Bizarro World issue, and that was just a bunch of weird, silly stuff thrown on the page. Not *every* issue has to be a commentary. It's fine (preferable, even) to just let him punch monsters sometimes.

    But that can't be all he is. That's just shallow BS.

    And for the people who don't want Clark marching with peaceful protesters or scaring some corrupt jackass who abused his authority....don't read that issue. Skip it, grab the next story where he does something simple and safe and inoffensive. But if Superman isn't pissing off *anyone* then he's not saying anything that matters. Superman stood up against racism back in the 40's and 50's when that sh*t was far more accepted than it is today. Y'think that didn't piss people off? I'm sure it did. And I'm sure those people were saying "Superman should just be escapist fantasy and the real world issues should be left outside of comics." Those people were wrong then. The people saying it now are wrong too.

    And as for that "what if his politics aren't yours?" crap.....he's a fictional character. My ego can withstand not agreeing with a person who is not real. Besides, it doesn't take much effort to do some basic literary analysis and get a rough feel for what Clark's politics might be, and there *are* issues where I'd probably disagree with him. Never stopped me from loving the character. I can say the same for Green Arrow (too liberal) and Icon (too conservative) too; love them both, don't agree with their politics. If you need your fictional characters to reflect your views and you can't stand the idea that they might feel differently, then you need to grow the f*ck up. That's not a problem with the fictional character it's a problem with you.
    Did he actually though? I don't know if non-whites were showcased that much, and if they were they weren't presented favorably (there is the infamous WWII propaganda "Slap a J**!" piece). BUT, that's just dated crap that's easy enough to leave behind, the rest of the core ideas are very easy to apply to Superman standing against racism as he stands against corrupt systems and trends in general.

    Agreed 100% on everything else.

  9. #144
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Did he actually though? I don't know if non-whites were showcased that much, and if they were they weren't presented favorably (there is the infamous WWII propaganda "Slap a J**!" piece). BUT, that's just dated crap that's easy enough to leave behind, the rest of the core ideas are very easy to apply to Superman standing against racism as he stands against corrupt systems and trends in general.

    Agreed 100% on everything else.
    While he was not exempt from the regrettable racism present in old comic books, and dear God was the misogyny strong during the Silver Age, by and large he’s typically leaned center-left despite the pop culture image of him as a conservative. Dispenser of Truth wrote a pretty good post about his history: https://davidmann95.tumblr.com/post/...mans-political. And despite the failings of some comic book writers, his radio serial still helped fight back against the KKK which is pretty damn positive accomplishment.

    Despite all my complaints about the characterization of Superman during the Post-Crisis, one thing that is unarguably superior compared to Pre-Crisis is the treatment of minorities and women. It’s not perfect, and there are still clear failings, but it’s much improved. Post-Crisis is where we got Ron Troupe, and Steel for positive black representation. It’s where we got Gangbuster, a Latino hero. Lois got back some of her original Golden Age spirit. Cat Grant was a positive representation of an unmarried woman having a kid out of wedlock (that I remember as positive). Maggie Sawyer was a positive representation for lesbian women.
    Last edited by Vordan; 06-03-2020 at 07:23 AM.

  10. #145
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Did he actually though? I don't know if non-whites were showcased that much, and if they were they weren't presented favorably (there is the infamous WWII propaganda "Slap a J**!" piece). BUT, that's just dated crap that's easy enough to leave behind, the rest of the core ideas are very easy to apply to Superman standing against racism as he stands against corrupt systems and trends in general.

    Agreed 100% on everything else.
    Like Vordan said, it wasn't perfect. It never has been, as your excellent "slap a Jap" example shows, and the Silver Age is full of sexism (played for harmless laughs at the time, but pretty awful by today's standards). But we have stuff like the "Remember kids, your country is made up of citizens from all ethnicities..." quote, the anti-KKK radio serial, and so on and so forth.

    Superman's not real. He doesn't actually have opinions or politics, and writers and editors have, over the years, stepped out of line with what has been established as core character traits. So there have definitely been times when Clark wasn't as open minded or progressive as he's otherwise been shown. But those are outliers and examples of writers imposing their own viewpoints on the character. They're easy to ignore and should be ignored.

    And that's the only real problem with injecting real world topics into the comics. I might look at Clark's history and say "he'd probably think X about this topic" while someone else might look at different stories through the history and say "he'd probably think Z" about the same topic, and someone else might not do any real research at all and say "he'd probably feel the same way I feel about it" because everyone thinks they're right so Superman would, of course, agree with them. But that's a risk I'm willing to take; all you'd need to minimize the risk of Clark being written OoC is an editor capable of doing some literary analysis (which should be a job requirement anyway), or better yet a writer who can do the same and realizes that these characters aren't just mouth pieces. In other words, don't hire morons and it'll be (largely) fine.
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  11. #146
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    Superman is M.I.A. from popular culture for the same reason most of DC's characters are. Warner Bros just doesn't take full advantage and market them well.

    There is zero evidence that this has anything to do with Superman's optimism. How has Spider-Man stayed in the zeitgeist then? Spider-Man isn't that less optimistic than Superman. Furthermore, how do you explain the explosion in of Shonen heroes in the last 30 years? Goku, Luffy, and Naruto are all very optimistic. They are also very popular.

    Also, who are these cynical masses we keep hearing about? Do we consider the protesters all over the world right now to be cynical? If so, why do they even bother? And if inequality and authoritarianism are what make people cynical, why did those things not hinder Superman in the 1930s?

    So if it has nothing to do with cynicism, is it because Superman is too powerful? I mean, other than the fact he can fly, Post-Crisis Superman isn't that much more powerful from Golden Age Superman. Plenty of other popular characters are powerful. Hulk and Thor are powerful. Goku is powerful. Kratos from God of War is powerful.

    Like Morrison said in an interview, people incorrectly associate Superman with the "Republican Dad" personality we see in 50's sitcoms. WB never fully challenged that notion of Superman like they challenged the notion of Batman being campy. Thus Superman has been MIA from the zeitgeist. A movie has the potential to change this, but so far they have all been about nostalgia (Superman Returns) or making him 'darker' (DCEU). I'm sure general audiences would love to see a Superman film in the vein of Morrison's Action Comics, if only they would get to see it.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-03-2020 at 03:53 PM.

  12. #147
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superman is M.I.A. from popular culture for the same reason most of DC's characters are. Warner Bros just doesn't take full advantage and market them well.

    There is zero evidence that this has anything to do with Superman's optimism. How has Spider-Man stayed in the zeitgeist then? Spider-Man isn't that less optimistic than Superman. Furthermore, how do you explain the explosion in of Shonen heroes in the last 30 years? Goku, Luffy, and Naruto are all very optimistic. They are also very popular.

    Also, who are these cynical masses we keep hearing about? Do we consider the protesters all over the world right now to be cynical? If so, why do they even bother? And if inequality and authoritarianism are what make people cynical, why did those things not hinder Superman in the 1930s?

    So if it has nothing to do with cynicism, is it because Superman is too powerful? I mean, other than the fact he can fly, Post-Crisis Superman isn't that much more powerful from Golden Age Superman. Plenty of other popular characters are powerful. Hulk and Thor are powerful. Goku is powerful. Kratos from God of War is powerful.

    Like Morrison said in an interview, people incorrectly associate Superman with the "Republican Dad" personality we see in 50's sitcoms. WB never fully challenged that notion of Superman like they challenged the notion of Batman being campy. Thus Superman has been MIA from the zeitgeist. A movie has the potential to change this, but so far they have all been about nostalgia (Superman Returns) or making him 'darker' (DCEU). I'm sure general audiences would love to see a Superman film in the vein of Morrison's Action Comics, if only they would get to see it.
    Warner Bros mismanagement of the character is absolutely a key factor in Superman’s waning popularity.

    I am not sure what you're talking about in regards to cynicism. The late 1970s were deeply cynical and that's when the Donner film enjoyed so much popularity because the character was so different. No one here has argued that cynicism has prevented Superman from being more popular.

    As for Spider-Man's enduring popularity compared to Superman's, I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the themes of growing into adulthood and the more responsibility that entails are far easier hooks for creators and audiences to grasp.

    Unfortunately, it's s far easier to craft a good Spider-Man or Batman story than it is to do the same with Superman, who is a much tougher nut to crack creatively.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superman is M.I.A. from popular culture for the same reason most of DC's characters are. Warner Bros just doesn't take full advantage and market them well.

    There is zero evidence that this has anything to do with Superman's optimism. How has Spider-Man stayed in the zeitgeist then? Spider-Man isn't that less optimistic than Superman. Furthermore, how do you explain the explosion in of Shonen heroes in the last 30 years? Goku, Luffy, and Naruto are all very optimistic. They are also very popular.

    Also, who are these cynical masses we keep hearing about? Do we consider the protesters all over the world right now to be cynical? If so, why do they even bother? And if inequality and authoritarianism are what make people cynical, why did those things not hinder Superman in the 1930s?

    So if it has nothing to do with cynicism, is it because Superman is too powerful? I mean, other than the fact he can fly, Post-Crisis Superman isn't that much more powerful from Golden Age Superman. Plenty of other popular characters are powerful. Hulk and Thor are powerful. Goku is powerful. Kratos from God of War is powerful.

    Like Morrison said in an interview, people incorrectly associate Superman with the "Republican Dad" personality we see in 50's sitcoms. WB never fully challenged that notion of Superman like they challenged the notion of Batman being campy. Thus Superman has been MIA from the zeitgeist. A movie has the potential to change this, but so far they have all been about nostalgia (Superman Returns) or making him 'darker' (DCEU). I'm sure general audiences would love to see a Superman film in the vein of Morrison's Action Comics, if only they would get to see it.
    It’s funny. I’m in my 40s, and I still deal with non-comics fans who think of Superman as a Workplace Romance (Lois and Clark), or a rural teen coming of age story (Smallville).

  14. #149
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    It’s funny. I’m in my 40s, and I still deal with non-comics fans who think of Superman as a Workplace Romance (Lois and Clark), or a rural teen coming of age story (Smallville).
    Superman, like a lot of characters, gets pigeonholed a lot. Hal Jordan will forever be Green Arrow's right wing punching bag for some, irregardless of how atypical that was for the character. I am flabbergasted by how many people think Batman had no rule against killing people after the Burton films. The biggest problem with Superman is that there hasn't been enough non-comics material out there with him to move the needle one way or the other.

    I would have loved to have seen how the Burton/Cage film came together, even if I am sure it wouldn't have been what audiences were expecting. Same with Abrams Flyby, although I think Matt Boomer would have suffered being in the closet longer as a result. I don't think WB would have ever allowed an openly gay actor to be playing Superman.

  15. #150
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    The difference is superman might be pigeonholed because there is a precedent. Both the dad thing and the drama/romance thing does. Superman can be insufferable without a kid. Especially if when naive role model avatar is on. Atleast with a kid, there is some innocence to it. It's fun. I think the company itself has realised that, hence they had been trying get him a kid since 2000's.But,the bad news is comics has bad record with superkids.Come to think of it, the radio show with the idealised version of superman had created jimmy for that purpose.I sometimes think superman should be the one who nannies the titans. It's a much better role for him.

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    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-03-2020 at 10:16 PM.

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