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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    The difference is superman might be pigeonholed because there is a precedent. Both the dad thing and the drama/romance thing does. Superman can be insufferable without a kid. Especially if when naive role model avatar is on. Atleast with a kid, there is some innocence to it. It's fun. I think the company itself has realised that, hence they had been trying get him a kid since 2000's.But,the bad news is comics has bad record with superkids.Come to think of it, the radio show with the idealised version of superman had created jimmy for that purpose.I sometimes think superman should be the one who nannies the titans. It's a much better role for him.

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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Warner Bros mismanagement of the character is absolutely a key factor in Superman’s waning popularity.

    I am not sure what you're talking about in regards to cynicism. The late 1970s were deeply cynical and that's when the Donner film enjoyed so much popularity because the character was so different. No one here has argued that cynicism has prevented Superman from being more popular.

    As for Spider-Man's enduring popularity compared to Superman's, I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the themes of growing into adulthood and the more responsibility that entails are far easier hooks for creators and audiences to grasp.

    Unfortunately, it's s far easier to craft a good Spider-Man or Batman story than it is to do the same with Superman, who is a much tougher nut to crack creatively.
    I heard plenty of people argue that cynicism prevents Superman from being more popular. Others word is as Superman being too "old-school", which is just an ageist way of making the same argument.

    I don't know if it's easier to craft a Batman or Spider-Man story. Writing Batman can be hard too. It's a detective noir comic and most of his villains deal with psychology. Spider-Man has to have reasonable drama. If Superman is hard to write, it's because fiction in general is hard to write.

  3. #153
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    There's only one thing holding Superman back - WB not understanding the character well enough to make a billion dollar blockbuster movie for him. All this other discussion is just us wanting to sound smart, but really all he's missing is some quality film and maybe game content.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superman is M.I.A. from popular culture for the same reason most of DC's characters are. Warner Bros just doesn't take full advantage and market them well.

    There is zero evidence that this has anything to do with Superman's optimism. How has Spider-Man stayed in the zeitgeist then? Spider-Man isn't that less optimistic than Superman. Furthermore, how do you explain the explosion in of Shonen heroes in the last 30 years? Goku, Luffy, and Naruto are all very optimistic. They are also very popular.

    Also, who are these cynical masses we keep hearing about? Do we consider the protesters all over the world right now to be cynical? If so, why do they even bother? And if inequality and authoritarianism are what make people cynical, why did those things not hinder Superman in the 1930s?

    So if it has nothing to do with cynicism, is it because Superman is too powerful? I mean, other than the fact he can fly, Post-Crisis Superman isn't that much more powerful from Golden Age Superman. Plenty of other popular characters are powerful. Hulk and Thor are powerful. Goku is powerful. Kratos from God of War is powerful.

    Like Morrison said in an interview, people incorrectly associate Superman with the "Republican Dad" personality we see in 50's sitcoms. WB never fully challenged that notion of Superman like they challenged the notion of Batman being campy. Thus Superman has been MIA from the zeitgeist. A movie has the potential to change this, but so far they have all been about nostalgia (Superman Returns) or making him 'darker' (DCEU). I'm sure general audiences would love to see a Superman film in the vein of Morrison's Action Comics, if only they would get to see it.
    First of all naruto doesnt exist anymore. Secondly these characters including spiderman run on more younger audience appeal like being silly, goofy, less mature and responsible, etc. Something superman isnt. Superman is a superhero whos ezpected to be a near perfecr adult despite holding the same optimistic values as the former but your not gonna see him make goofy jokes or act like a idiot who annoys everyone around him like goku, maybe on dcu abridged.

  5. #155
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    First of all naruto doesnt exist anymore. Secondly these characters including spiderman run on more younger audience appeal like being silly, goofy, less mature and responsible, etc. Something superman isnt. Superman is a superhero whos ezpected to be a near perfecr adult despite holding the same optimistic values as the former but your not gonna see him make goofy jokes or act like a idiot who annoys everyone around him like goku, maybe on dcu abridged.
    But, the guy could act naive in seriousness that puts these guys to shame. Superman losing any personality for sainthood,Not welcomed by me. smh!The guy was so much like luffy in goldenage . It's not even funny.
    One piece x goldenage superman comics. A cross over i would read the heck! Out of.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-04-2020 at 09:47 PM.

  6. #156
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    You make it sound simple Vakanai, but a quality film and good video game don't just appear out of thin air. If WB hasn't been understanding the character for the past decade, what's gonna magically flip the switch and give them the ability to be able to do that now? That's what people are trying to get at with these discussions, trying to get at where exactly the misunderstandings come from, and how they can be rectified to give the character a better future.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I heard plenty of people argue that cynicism prevents Superman from being more popular. Others word is as Superman being too "old-school", which is just an ageist way of making the same argument.

    I don't know if it's easier to craft a Batman or Spider-Man story. Writing Batman can be hard too. It's a detective noir comic and most of his villains deal with psychology. Spider-Man has to have reasonable drama. If Superman is hard to write, it's because fiction in general is hard to write.
    Writing a great story is hard irregardless of the character, but I think the long history of mediocre Superman stories over the years is a testament to how hard Superman is for a lot of creators to craft compelling stories for. This isn't to say that Spider-Man and Batman haven't also had their fare share of mediocre stories, but they have a better batting average.

  8. #158
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    The people arguing both for and against cynicism preventing Superman have a rather skewed idea of what cynicism means. Cynicism doesn't mean a character not always being optimistic, having doubts about their place in the world or experiencing tragedy and hardship.

  9. #159
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Writing a great story is hard irregardless of the character, but I think the long history of mediocre Superman stories over the years is a testament to how hard Superman is for a lot of creators to craft compelling stories for. This isn't to say that Spider-Man and Batman haven't also had their fare share of mediocre stories, but they have a better batting average.
    Why? There are tons of overpowered characters. If power is an issue.

  10. #160
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superman is M.I.A. from popular culture for the same reason most of DC's characters are. Warner Bros just doesn't take full advantage and market them well.

    There is zero evidence that this has anything to do with Superman's optimism. How has Spider-Man stayed in the zeitgeist then? Spider-Man isn't that less optimistic than Superman. Furthermore, how do you explain the explosion in of Shonen heroes in the last 30 years? Goku, Luffy, and Naruto are all very optimistic. They are also very popular.
    The fact that these characters exist in a largely similar format doesn't argue that they have the same appeal at all. There are many reasons why someone would like a Shonen series and not like an American comic or vice versa, and on top of that it's not necessarily true that series = character.

    So if it has nothing to do with cynicism, is it because Superman is too powerful? I mean, other than the fact he can fly, Post-Crisis Superman isn't that much more powerful from Golden Age Superman. Plenty of other popular characters are powerful. Hulk and Thor are powerful. Goku is powerful. Kratos from God of War is powerful.
    Aside from how much weight they can lift or how hard they hit, Superman's combined powers put him well ahead and it's difficult to write a story without neglecting that fact so that there's actually some tension. Thor probably comes closest, but he's been so reduced that the general public sees him as a meathead and the comics are now having his hammer blocked by street level characters.

    Like Morrison said in an interview, people incorrectly associate Superman with the "Republican Dad" personality we see in 50's sitcoms. WB never fully challenged that notion of Superman like they challenged the notion of Batman being campy. Thus Superman has been MIA from the zeitgeist. A movie has the potential to change this, but so far they have all been about nostalgia (Superman Returns) or making him 'darker' (DCEU). I'm sure general audiences would love to see a Superman film in the vein of Morrison's Action Comics, if only they would get to see it.
    The "darker" take is completely divorced from anything you'd call a "Republican dad." For all I hear about how WB doesn't try, it seems like their efforts are pretty apparent. Maybe if the comics figure themselves out like the Batman ones did back in the 70s, they'll have a template for something people really like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    There's only one thing holding Superman back - WB not understanding the character well enough to make a billion dollar blockbuster movie for him. All this other discussion is just us wanting to sound smart, but really all he's missing is some quality film and maybe game content.
    It might feel smart to simplify the problem. "All they need to do is figure out how to make a billion dollar movie." But I'm not so sure that's an easy fix to say the least. None of the people suggested to right the ship step up, none of the people out there scoring big on other properties are evidently trying to make Superman work.

    Understanding what it takes to produce quality effectively and develop a good game take more than sounding or even "being" smart. But all we can do is try defining them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Writing a great story is hard irregardless of the character, but I think the long history of mediocre Superman stories over the years is a testament to how hard Superman is for a lot of creators to craft compelling stories for. This isn't to say that Spider-Man and Batman haven't also had their fare share of mediocre stories, but they have a better batting average.
    Nothing beyond what's very subjective though. The better Spider-Man and Batman stories don't really outperform the average ones. The average to mediocre ones still outperform the better Superman ones. Remember when Detective by Tony Daniel went from competing with Morrison's Action Comics to beating it?
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  11. #161
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Why? There are tons of overpowered characters. If power is an issue.
    I don't think it's just how powerful Superman is, it's how good he is. Peter Parker's a hot mess trying to make up for getting his uncle killed. Bruce Wayne's a rich basket-case with serious childhood trauma. Those are easy hooks for writers to craft stories from. Whereas Clark is a relatively well-adjusted guy motivated almost completely by an altruistic desire for good. That's a tough proposition for most creators because all the usual crutches aren't there.

    Even the closest thing Marvel has to a Superman-type, Captain America, is an easier character to write for because of the great hook of being a man who lost decades of his life, in addition to his more modest power set.

  12. #162
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    There are several characters closer to Superman than Cap and it goes back to the power thing for many of them. Steve can get high on meth, get forced underground, get gunned down in the streets, etc. and always just fall back on a "lost story" about fighting Nazis for a breather. Modest power set is putting it lightly, he's basically Batman with a handful of batarangs and no belt including the fact that like Batman, he's pretty much a superhero who happens to have a real Identity instead of a superhero with a falsified identity or a genuine guy who is also a superhero. Cap's wealth of limits make him easier.
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think it's just how powerful Superman is, it's how good he is. Peter Parker's a hot mess trying to make up for getting his uncle killed. Bruce Wayne's a rich basket-case with serious childhood trauma. Those are easy hooks for writers to craft stories from. Whereas Clark is a relatively well-adjusted guy motivated almost completely by an altruistic desire for good. That's a tough proposition for most creators because all the usual crutches aren't there.

    Even the closest thing Marvel has to a Superman-type, Captain America, is an easier character to write for because of the great hook of being a man who lost decades of his life, in addition to his more modest power set.

    The characters pretty much just stuck. He kind of taps into that kind of fear that a lot of people have surrounding foreigners that amass great influence/power. Even if it's for the better the idea that he might change things scares the daylights out of people. Then if you add in stuff like the 60's/70's where he was becoming much more connected with his alien culture and you've got the recipe for a lot of peoples greatest fear that someone from somewhere else is coming to subvert their way of life.

    It's funny because current events have kind of brought Golden Age Supes back up a bit but every time he makes a return we say how he's outdated and simple. The element that makes Superman relevant have always been there because the underlying elements that created Superman never fully went away. On the other hand people are usually quick to label Superman a tyrant and if the back to basics angle fail even once then people are quick to try and send him back to the farm life no matter how little the character actually benefits from that angle.

    Compared to Batman who's a rich celebrity with a sad backstory; a trifecta of elements people love to worship. Spiderman who occupies the "average man" role. Cap has nestled a good angle of guy fighting tyrant. If you try to make Superman a rich celebrity you wouldn't have Superman, trying to make Supes the "average man" just translates to make him more boring, and when Supes tries to fight tyranny, he's usually seen as a tyrant.

    Modern Superman's motto is pretty much "Better safe than sorry" and that may keep him alive but if the character is to truly thrive then WB/DC needs to realize that safe isn't always better than sorry.
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  14. #164
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I find this idea that superman is too good to be made a movie about, rather unbelievable. I haven't found anything that makes him that. He acts appropriately and stuff ala boyscouttish behaviour . Being good and being a boyscout are two different things. Even then superman isn't about being good. He is about doing the right with all the limitations of a human. In my mind, superma was never meant to be seen like that either nor was he meant to be the boyscout.
    As for hooks, there tons of people who do the right thing without any sort of selfish motivation behind it. It's perfectly relatable. As for powerlevel's, it's an adjustable thing. Superman started of no better than cap.

  15. #165
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    Just make Superman/Clark the underdog. In whatever story they create.

    It’s not hard to do. Even when fighting Luthor, who can hold political and economic power, that makes him hard to take down with just brute force.

    Or other enemies besides Zod.


    They got by the stigma of Captain America being a white bread do-gooder in each of his films, by making him a rebel with a cause.

    It’s not hard to tap into each hero to make the audience want to support them.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 06-05-2020 at 07:23 AM.

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