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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    People would disagree with that assessment. Why?because one punch borrows a lot of themes the overdog superman is supposed to do. does it in a way that people feel entertained and the point gets accross. He is a loser. That's the fun part of it. Moreover, one punch man always does the right thing for no reason other than just fun, albeit being an asshole at times. Superman was a dick too(ofcourse superman being a dick is seen as out of character now).
    Note- I don't prescribe to notion of superman being a boyscout, saint or rolemodel.i tend to like a superman who is more rough around the edges.

    One punch man says "eff off" to a crowd complaining about collateral. The same needed a page of dialog in superman comics. The former drove the point home with humour. Later, couldn't achieve that being all serious.An overdog is supposed to wait for others to catch upto him while providing support to his peers.one punch man does that better. Saitama made drow the point home that the costume might be ridiculous. But, it's the hero inside that people should be looking for. Yet, people judge by outter appearances. Just look at how they got powers, no offence to comics industry. But, there isn't much need for a elaborate explanation such as sun being power source or bioelectric aura. One punch man does it with "100 pushups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats every single day". He made fun of both batman and superman,at the same time.

    I had saw a video of one punch man vs watchmen differences. It was kind of interesting. Watchmen sought to tear down the superhero. While, one punch man is simply poking fun with love and keeping the essence of these stories and heroes like superman intact. It just wants the industry to look at itself more closely as a fan. While watchman tries to show the how effed superheroes can be.There is an episode in recess that also does the same thing and also references superman(that universes version of the character senor fusion).i had said this before, superman being a controversial figure is in his dna. He is no fun when he becomes loved.
    If youbthink thats all there is to saitama, you dont get the character period. Saitamas a joke but hes seen as a joke ss a tragedy of his overwhelming power, he only does right reguardless because he depressed he cant enjoy being a hero, that whole hero for fun shit hasnt been a staple to him since chapter 30. Superman is suppoed to be the fun and bombastic power fantasy but writers just screw that up because they either dont get him or feel jealpus hes set up way better as a enjoyable charscter to fantasize about than batman.

  2. #182
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    If youbthink thats all there is to saitama, you dont get the character period. Saitamas a joke but hes seen as a joke ss a tragedy of his overwhelming power, he only does right reguardless because he depressed he cant enjoy being a hero, that whole hero for fun shit hasnt been a staple to him since chapter 30. Superman is suppoed to be the fun and bombastic power fantasy but writers just screw that up because they either dont get him or feel jealpus hes set up way better as a enjoyable charscter to fantasize about than batman.
    When did i say that is all there is to saitama? I specifically say one punch man executes the overdog material better than Superman. Superman isn't supposed to be just a bombastic power fantasy. Now, your idea of superman is skewed.

  3. #183
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Spider-Man and Batman are the only characters with a real claim to being ahead of Superman, and that doesn't come from a game or movie.
    Disagree. Batman in pop culture used to be a campy joke informed by nothing beyond the 66 Adam West series. Spider-Man was mostly known by the cartoons and maybe the Electric Company shorts. The movies are what really brought them to the level they are now. Batman is more popular right now because he's had better cartoons, games, and films over the past 3 decades ever since the 89 film. Spider-Man took off crazy huge once the first Raimi movie hit. I'm not saying that these characters weren't popular before or weren't part of pop culture, but the non-comic medium is what made them juggernauts to the non-comic reading crowd.

    They have many popular games across different developers and several movies with big commercial impact. They have many toys of their gadgets and a greater presence in animation by far. The company lines cater to them with events and they'll cross over from Ninja Turtles to Obama.

    All I mean to say is that WB "getting it right" isn't more than just one step forward. Maybe they need to feel less pressure on that really.
    I keep mentioning the games too, and the possibility of a cartoon. But cartoon series are easier to get off the ground if there's a movie - look at Batman: The Animated Series. And toy lines are easier to pull off with movies and cartoons to attach too. So sure, animation and toys is part of the debate to achieving success, but largely it comes down to a big great movie that eases the way for games, toys, and animation. You can get animation, games, and toys without the movies, but it is harder to get approved.

  4. #184
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    It’s hard to do a toyline for Superman. He has no gizmos or gadgets or vehicles. And his rogues gallery isn’t expansive like Batman’s.

    If he gets a new animated series, they’ll have to rectify that.

  5. #185
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Disagree. Batman in pop culture used to be a campy joke informed by nothing beyond the 66 Adam West series. Spider-Man was mostly known by the cartoons and maybe the Electric Company shorts. The movies are what really brought them to the level they are now. Batman is more popular right now because he's had better cartoons, games, and films over the past 3 decades ever since the 89 film. Spider-Man took off crazy huge once the first Raimi movie hit. I'm not saying that these characters weren't popular before or weren't part of pop culture, but the non-comic medium is what made them juggernauts to the non-comic reading crowd.
    What I was saying is that those two have crossed enough lines that suggesting Superman is able to come much closer through one major project is unlikely. For the other part guess I'm not sure what you mean. The comic medium creates the noncomic medium that reaches the noncomic crowd. The comic medium and its creative peaks are the drivers. It's pretty much impossible to point to the success of Batman in the 80s and 90s without Killing Joke, DKR, and the works of O'Neil/Englehart for example. The movie and television folks state as much.
    Likewise just about all of the X-Men in pop culture goes back to Claremont succeeding in the home medium, and the massively notable Death of Superman comic is now probably the only story known in pop culture aside from his infant voyage.


    I keep mentioning the games too, and the possibility of a cartoon. But cartoon series are easier to get off the ground if there's a movie - look at Batman: The Animated Series. And toy lines are easier to pull off with movies and cartoons to attach too. So sure, animation and toys is part of the debate to achieving success, but largely it comes down to a big great movie that eases the way for games, toys, and animation. You can get animation, games, and toys without the movies, but it is harder to get approved.
    Many of the most popular cartoon and live action shows for kids either never got movies or got them as a result of their preceding success. Transformers, GI Joe, Ninja Turtles, Spider-Man, Power Rangers, X-Men and others all got their movies years after the shows and merchandise hit and I'm not sure Batman proves having it the other way around is the easier or more effective thing.
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  6. #186
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Van Damme was also utterly shameless about his physicality and "French guy charm" so he was able to get by with some pretty bs martial arts where Seagal was rather credible lol.



    Cap is without question the leader of the Avengers even among peers and the greatest spokesman of heroes. As a creation of the government draped in the flag, he also has to answer many different questions than Superman. Growing up Cap was my favorite hero before Superman took over, and I have to say that aside from being known as "the guy who stands akimbo" there's a strong difference for every similarity.

    Many would jump for a "Superman Winter Soldier" but that involves so much set up and adjusting that it really wouldn't be the same anyway.
    In terms of similarities, I am talking about how both Cap and Clark are each viewed as the moral centers of their respective superhero worlds.

    But, like I said, Cap has an easier time because he's got lots of strong hooks like chaffing against the government and the pain of being a man who lost decades to craft stories from.

    Superman can't really use any of those same hooks, although he does end up playing the same notes whenever he's put in that context, such as New Frontier, Dark Knight Returns and Moore's Supreme.

    I am not advocating for the regular Superman comics to have him start working as a government agent or to become lost for decades though, even if those ended up making for interesting Superman stories

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Superman has had dead parents in many continuities.All the movies, have killed a parent of his. That' hasn't exactly caused some great uptake in the appeal of the character. Its irrelevant(death of parents) . The character itself comes of as a fake saint. That's a problem. People could easily equate the white knight superman to two face. Why? Superman doesn't feel tangibly genuine.

    People have no trouble watch creed or rocky? That's what superman's story is about. Isn't it? The story about a champion.
    Rocky and Creed are deeply flawed characters in ways that I don't think audiences would ever accept for Superman

    I agree with you about the dead dad. Hollywood, I think wisely, realized that they had to give Superman some pathos to balance him out.

    Granted, that's a whole other discussion
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 06-06-2020 at 06:07 PM.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    It’s hard to do a toyline for Superman. He has no gizmos or gadgets or vehicles. And his rogues gallery isn’t expansive like Batman’s.

    If he gets a new animated series, they’ll have to rectify that.
    With the DCAU they made him weaker in part to help with that, although frankly I think going full Silver Age is a better method, the Silver Age was insanely toyetic. Just look at all the stuff he’s got in his Fortress in All-Star:


    Going “grounded” outside of maybe the first season isn’t the way to go imo.

  9. #189
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    What I was saying is that those two have crossed enough lines that suggesting Superman is able to come much closer through one major project is unlikely. For the other part guess I'm not sure what you mean. The comic medium creates the noncomic medium that reaches the noncomic crowd. The comic medium and its creative peaks are the drivers. It's pretty much impossible to point to the success of Batman in the 80s and 90s without Killing Joke, DKR, and the works of O'Neil/Englehart for example. The movie and television folks state as much.
    Likewise just about all of the X-Men in pop culture goes back to Claremont succeeding in the home medium, and the massively notable Death of Superman comic is now probably the only story known in pop culture aside from his infant voyage.
    1. Doesn't matter how many lines the other two have crossed to get where they are - look at Iron Man, he wasn't even a blip on the radar to most folks until his movie. You don't need to match the number of films and toons and so on to catch up with other characters. You just need something great in the now.

    2. I never said anything against the comic books, and I think you inferred a point I never made. All I said was about the non-comic reading crowd. Didn't say comics weren't important, but however groundbreaking the comics don't reach the non-comic readers. Yeah they inspire the movies and all, but the movies are what reaches the pop culture level.

    Many of the most popular cartoon and live action shows for kids either never got movies or got them as a result of their preceding success. Transformers, GI Joe, Ninja Turtles, Spider-Man, Power Rangers, X-Men and others all got their movies years after the shows and merchandise hit and I'm not sure Batman proves having it the other way around is the easier or more effective thing.
    Maybe - but what's the point? The path to success isn't a blockbuster movie but a great kids show in the 80s or 90s? Fine, get Superman a great cartoon then. As I said, not having a movie doesn't prevent a show, but a movie does help grease the wheels. Either way, he needs success in wider media to increase his place in pop culture. A great movie will do it best, but a great videogame, cartoon, or live action premium show (think HBO level, not CW) will all do it too.

  10. #190
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    And his rogues gallery isn’t expansive like Batman’s.
    Outside of guys like the Joker, Ra's, Catwoman, etc., and we start looking at B-tier villains, I'm not sure Superman's are worse than Batman's. Would we care about the Riddler or the Penguin if not for Adam West and Tim Burton?

    If you said Batman has the best rogues gallery in DC, I'd agree, but I feel the most appealing thing about them is that they're just freakin' weird, as opposed to being really great villains.

    EDIT: To clarify on Riddler and Penguin, I don't mean to say they're bad villains, but there's nothing magical about them that elevates them above many of the comic book villains out there. They have their schtick, and it's memorable, but I feel like they're treated as "great" villains because they were immortalized in TV and film.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 06-06-2020 at 09:41 PM.

  11. #191
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Outside of guys like the Joker, Ra's, Catwoman, etc., and we start looking at B-tier villains, I'm not sure Superman's are worse than Batman's. Would we care about the Riddler or the Penguin if not for Adam West and Tim Burton?

    If you said Batman has the best rogues gallery in DC, I'd agree, but I feel the most appealing thing about them is that they're just freakin' weird, as opposed to being really great villains.

    EDIT: To clarify on Riddler and Penguin, I don't mean to say they're bad villains, but there's nothing magical about them that elevates them above many of the comic book villains out there. They have their schtick, and it's memorable, but I feel like they're treated as "great" villains because they were immortalized in TV and film.
    Batman indisputably has the best Rogues Gallery imo, but that doesn’t mean every one of his Rogues lives up to the hype. A lot of his Rogues mostly coast on the same 1-2 stories. Mr. Freeze only has Heart of Ice type stories for example, otherwise you can’t use that version without breaking it. When was the last great Two-Face, Scarecrow, Bane, Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, etc story? Most of them are just kinda there. Penguin is a fun mob boss but I can’t recall him doing anything worthwhile in years.

    That said Riddler has had some fantastic stories so I 100% think he rules. War of Jokes and Riddles, Zero Year, Russel’s Year of the Villain one-shot, all of them were great imo.

    A lot of Superman Rogues just don’t get used. Metallo and Parasite have never gotten any focus beyond some brief one-shots and being side antagonists. If someone were to focus on them I totally think they could bring it.

  12. #192
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    1. Doesn't matter how many lines the other two have crossed to get where they are - look at Iron Man, he wasn't even a blip on the radar to most folks until his movie. You don't need to match the number of films and toons and so on to catch up with other characters. You just need something great in the now.
    Iron Man is a great example of a movie breaking down the door, yeah. But he was installed as the face of the MCU. So his other two films showed diminishing returns but when projects involving other characters caught on, they still associated with him.

    I think the character is naturally well advantaged with merchandise ( for one thing who wants to wear Superman appendages?) but that's something they could put to a test.

    2. I never said anything against the comic books, and I think you inferred a point I never made. All I said was about the non-comic reading crowd. Didn't say comics weren't important, but however groundbreaking the comics don't reach the non-comic readers. Yeah they inspire the movies and all, but the movies are what reaches the pop culture level.
    I'm saying that those properties were already popular and trending upward. To me there's just too much emphasis being put on a "hit movie" making a property hot.

    As I said, not having a movie doesn't prevent a show, but a movie does help grease the wheels. Either way, he needs success in wider media to increase his place in pop culture. A great movie will do it best, but a great videogame, cartoon, or live action premium show (think HBO level, not CW) will all do it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    we have to only discuss how can we get a good movie and/or game. Everything else isn't addressing the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    There's only one thing holding Superman back - WB not understanding the character well enough to make a billion dollar blockbuster movie for him.
    The first and most recent quote doesn't seem to say the same thing to me. Does a movie get the ball rolling or is it the ball itself? Will several other things increase his place in pop culture, or does it just come down to a movie and/or game?
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  13. #193
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Rocky and Creed are deeply flawed characters in ways that I don't think audiences would ever accept for Superman

    I agree with you about the dead dad. Hollywood, I think wisely, realized that they had to give Superman some pathos to balance him out.

    Granted, that's a whole other discussion
    Then that's the problem. On paper, superman is as flawed or more so. Sure, superman might have done some ads on not to bully, not to smoke or not to be racist for kids. But, that doesn’t mean the character needs to become a one dimensional role model.

    The problem witb superman is simple. His audiences want a role model type of deal. But, those who largely don't care or are his detractors wouldn't want one.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-06-2020 at 10:51 PM.

  14. #194
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Disagree. Batman in pop culture used to be a campy joke informed by nothing beyond the 66 Adam West series. Spider-Man was mostly known by the cartoons and maybe the Electric Company shorts. The movies are what really brought them to the level they are now. Batman is more popular right now because he's had better cartoons, games, and films over the past 3 decades ever since the 89 film. Spider-Man took off crazy huge once the first Raimi movie hit. I'm not saying that these characters weren't popular before or weren't part of pop culture, but the non-comic medium is what made them juggernauts to the non-comic reading crowd.

    I keep mentioning the games too, and the possibility of a cartoon. But cartoon series are easier to get off the ground if there's a movie - look at Batman: The Animated Series. And toy lines are easier to pull off with movies and cartoons to attach too. So sure, animation and toys is part of the debate to achieving success, but largely it comes down to a big great movie that eases the way for games, toys, and animation. You can get animation, games, and toys without the movies, but it is harder to get approved.
    I won't touch on the games because they are not anything I know much about or am interested in. But it was live action movies or television shows that boosted most of these characters to a phenomenal status.

    For a generation when kids read comics, it might have been different. Even so, I will say that my introduction to Batman was the 1960s show. I had no idea who he was before that although I then started reading the comics. Probably the movie with Michael Keaton was what broke that 1960s image for most people and on from there. Nowadays, the Dark Knight movies or the DCEU or various television shows are what define Batman for most people.

    What Superman needs is a movie that resonates with the overwhelming majority of the audience and that's not going to happen unless you get someone who understands the character and what most people want from that character in the same way that someone understood Batman and what most people want from the character and so gave us a Batman that resonated with most people, referring to the Dark Knight movies.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  15. #195
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Then that's the problem. On paper, superman is as flawed or more so. Sure, superman might have done some ads on not to bully, not to smoke or not to be racist for kids. But, that doesn’t mean the character needs to become a one dimensional role model.

    The problem witb superman is simple. His audiences want a role model type of deal. But, those who largely don't care or are his detractors wouldn't want one.
    It's not an either/or situation.

    Superman can still be an aspirational figure without being one dimensional. However, as I've been saying, that type of character is much more difficult to write compelling stories for.

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