The state of Superman in popular culture right now

[SiegePerilous02]

Batman indisputably has the best Rogues Gallery imo, but that doesn’t mean every one of his Rogues lives up to the hype. A lot of his Rogues mostly coast on the same 1-2 stories. Mr. Freeze only has Heart of Ice type stories for example, otherwise you can’t use that version without breaking it. When was the last great Two-Face, Scarecrow, Bane, Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, etc story? Most of them are just kinda there. Penguin is a fun mob boss but I can’t recall him doing anything worthwhile in years.

That said Riddler has had some fantastic stories so I 100% think he rules. War of Jokes and Riddles, Zero Year, Russel’s Year of the Villain one-shot, all of them were great imo.

A lot of Superman Rogues just don’t get used. Metallo and Parasite have never gotten any focus beyond some brief one-shots and being side antagonists. If someone were to focus on them I totally think they could bring it.

Batman's main set of rogues are among the best in comics, but like it has been said it's because they are immortalized in other media. The main set only consists of 15-20 or so characters (basically the ones who made it onto BTAS, who are also used in big roles in movies), once we get beyond that we get into the b-list and below and they really aren't any more remarkable than anyone else's villains. He has a ton of them who fell by the wayside and were never heard from again: anyone remember Steeljacket, Gearhead, Nicholas Scratch, Echo and Film Freak? Probably not.

Of Superman's villains, Lex, Brainiac, Mxy and Bizarro are all great, and even though they are mooks Parasite, Metallo, Toyman and the Prankster have their moments/potential. You could roughly get a similar number of iconic and popular foes from Superman. Also Wonder Woman, most of her villains haven't been seen since the Golden Age, and while they are dismissed as lame they really aren't any sillier than Batman's.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'm digging the "social crusader/man of action" take everyone was talking about a few pages ago. I think pushing that take might be a way to shake up Superman and get him to be looked at differently.

Regarding villians, i think they only really showcase Luthor and zod so you just get in the habit of showcasing the others more often. That would have been better in a tv show but it could be done in movies.

[SiegePerilous02]

Regarding villians, i think they only really showcase Luthor and zod so you just get in the habit of showcasing the others more often. That would have been better in a tv show but it could be done in movies.

I think one of the bigger problems is that Superman's TV shows didn't have the budget to effectively do a lot of his villains whereas something like the Adam West tv show has a much easier time showcasing its villains. And that the team behind BTAS didn't find as much of interest in Superman's rogues gallery as they did with Batman, so they showcased less of them. Bruce Timm even said they brought in Darkseid to beef up the rogues gallery because it was weak without the Kirby additions, which I think is total BS. Lex and Brainiac were great there, but the rest of the classic villains they used only got a couple episodes each and they didn't even touch some others (the Prankster, the Legion of Supervillains, and they didn't use Mongul or Doomsday until JL). And they only used the Legion in one episode, and honestly if forced to choose, I would think the Legion belongs in a Superman production more than the Fourth World stuff.

[Vakanai]

Iron Man is a great example of a movie breaking down the door, yeah. But he was installed as the face of the MCU. So his other two films showed diminishing returns but when projects involving other characters caught on, they still associated with him.

I think the character is naturally well advantaged with merchandise ( for one thing who wants to wear Superman appendages?) but that's something they could put to a test.



I'm saying that those properties were already popular and trending upward. To me there's just too much emphasis being put on a "hit movie" making a property hot.









The first and most recent quote doesn't seem to say the same thing to me. Does a movie get the ball rolling or is it the ball itself? Will several other things increase his place in pop culture, or does it just come down to a movie and/or game?

I'm a fan, not a professional debater, I'm just speaking my thoughts as I have them without any preparation or planning. My words may not always be exact and I may change a couple things on the fly as my thoughts come into better focus, but you get the general idea of what I think and feel - a hit movie is the best way to get Superman out there. My initial enthusiasm, poor wording, and just not thinking this through like some politician who needs a clear message may have colored it as the ball instead of the ball rolling, but either way is point is it is the biggest factor in getting Supes up there. Not the only one, but the one I'd put money on. But yeah, other things can help put him up there.
Sadly none of these seem likely to occur any time soon. Instead of some big HBO quality show we're getting some niche CW thing. Instead of a hit movie we're getting Cavill doing cameos maybe. So this all feels like we're looking at a wash this decade in my opinion as a Superman fan.

[Vakanai]

I won't touch on the games because they are not anything I know much about or am interested in. But it was live action movies or television shows that boosted most of these characters to a phenomenal status.

For a generation when kids read comics, it might have been different. Even so, I will say that my introduction to Batman was the 1960s show. I had no idea who he was before that although I then started reading the comics. Probably the movie with Michael Keaton was what broke that 1960s image for most people and on from there. Nowadays, the Dark Knight movies or the DCEU or various television shows are what define Batman for most people.

What Superman needs is a movie that resonates with the overwhelming majority of the audience and that's not going to happen unless you get someone who understands the character and what most people want from that character in the same way that someone understood Batman and what most people want from the character and so gave us a Batman that resonated with most people, referring to the Dark Knight movies.

Yeah, pretty much what I've been saying, a big movie (or a quality show that almost everyone watches) is the biggie. That's what Superman needs. But getting that has just been impossible, because seemingly no one in a position to do so gets him like they do Batman or Spider-Man or Iron Man or anyone else it seems.

[Will Evans]

I'm a fan, not a professional debater, I'm just speaking my thoughts as I have them without any preparation or planning. My words may not always be exact and I may change a couple things on the fly as my thoughts come into better focus, but you get the general idea of what I think and feel - a hit movie is the best way to get Superman out there. My initial enthusiasm, poor wording, and just not thinking this through like some politician who needs a clear message may have colored it as the ball instead of the ball rolling, but either way is point is it is the biggest factor in getting Supes up there. Not the only one, but the one I'd put money on. But yeah, other things can help put him up there.
Sadly none of these seem likely to occur any time soon. Instead of some big HBO quality show we're getting some niche CW thing. Instead of a hit movie we're getting Cavill doing cameos maybe. So this all feels like we're looking at a wash this decade in my opinion as a Superman fan.

The decade just started.

[Vordan]

The decade just started.

Yeah the 20s are already off to a better start for Supes than the entire 10s. He got three animated movies starring him. He’s getting a TV show. Cavill may be getting another shot, hopefully without Snyder. The 10s were one of his worst decades ever so, I feel way more optimistic about the 20s.

[Vakanai]

The decade just started.

I know. Doesn't mean I can't take a wild stab at how things may go with the current information we do know and how some things are trending now. Certainly the first few years don't look good.

Yeah the 20s are already off to a better start for Supes than the entire 10s. He got three animated movies starring him. He’s getting a TV show. Cavill may be getting another shot, hopefully without Snyder. The 10s were one of his worst decades ever so, I feel way more optimistic about the 20s.

Kind of relative - if you aren't a fan of the CW or their version of Supes to date, or a fan of Cavill's take on the character, it's still kind of a meh time. I am a fan of the animated movies, but those don't have as wide an audience either. The 2010s had Cavill as Superman where he was a lead instead of a cameo or support, and several Superman animated films too. So the only difference really is the CW show. I think the 2010s were a better decade for Superman than this one looks to be just for Man of Steel alone.

[Vordan]

I know. Doesn't mean I can't take a wild stab at how things may go with the current information we do know and how some things are trending now. Certainly the first few years don't look good.


Kind of relative - if you aren't a fan of the CW or their version of Supes to date, or a fan of Cavill's take on the character, it's still kind of a meh time. I am a fan of the animated movies, but those don't have as wide an audience either. The 2010s had Cavill as Superman where he was a lead instead of a cameo or support, and several Superman animated films too. So the only difference really is the CW show. I think the 2010s were a better decade for Superman than this one looks to be just for Man of Steel alone.

Can’t agree. Man of Steel was a colossal misfire that completely failed at rejuvenating Superman. MoS underperformance caused WB to let Snyder shove Batman into what was supposed to be a MoS sequel and led to Superman being completely sidelined. Supes was not a lead in BvS or JL, just a plot device. He had fewer lines in BvS than Spider-Man in CW. There also was not, and still aren’t, any plans for a solo Superman movie, showing how little Snyder or WB cared about the character.

The Hoechlin TV show will at the very least focus on Superman and let him be a character and not a mute suffering SuperJesus whose big arc is going EVILLLLL. That along puts it over the vast majority of Superman’s outside media appearances for the 2010s.

[Frontier]

Can’t agree. Man of Steel was a colossal misfire that completely failed at rejuvenating Superman. MoS underperformance caused WB to let Snyder shove Batman into what was supposed to be a MoS sequel and led to Superman being completely sidelined. Supes was not a lead in BvS or JL, just a plot device. He had fewer lines in BvS than Spider-Man in CW. There also was not, and still aren’t, any plans for a solo Superman movie, showing how little Snyder or WB cared about the character.

The Hoechlin TV show will at the very least focus on Superman and let him be a character and not a mute suffering SuperJesus whose big arc is going EVILLLLL. That along puts it over the vast majority of Superman’s outside media appearances for the 2010s.

I mean...I know MoS has it's strong fans and wasn't a complete failure at the box office, but it seemed like the controversy and the lack of an overall warm reception predicted a lot of the trouble DC movies would be having moving forward.

[Sacred Knight]

All I know is that its the 2000s that was the worst decade for Superman ever. The 10s were very hit or miss, the 20s just starting but not starting good (I personally am not of the opinion that the CW show has a leg up on MOS whatsoever). But the aughts is what damaged him REAL bad after a couple decades of sliding (the Death crazy notwithstanding) in a way he hasn't come out of.

[scary harpy]

Batman's main set of rogues are among the best in comics, but like it has been said it's because they are immortalized in other media. The main set only consists of 15-20 or so characters (basically the ones who made it onto BTAS, who are also used in big roles in movies), once we get beyond that we get into the b-list and below and they really aren't any more remarkable than anyone else's villains. He has a ton of them who fell by the wayside and were never heard from again: anyone remember Steeljacket, Gearhead, Nicholas Scratch, Echo and Film Freak? Probably not.

Of Superman's villains, Lex, Brainiac, Mxy and Bizarro are all great, and even though they are mooks Parasite, Metallo, Toyman and the Prankster have their moments/potential. You could roughly get a similar number of iconic and popular foes from Superman. Also Wonder Woman, most of her villains haven't been seen since the Golden Age, and while they are dismissed as lame they really aren't any sillier than Batman's.

I think one of the bigger problems is that Superman's TV shows didn't have the budget to effectively do a lot of his villains whereas something like the Adam West tv show has a much easier time showcasing its villains. And that the team behind BTAS didn't find as much of interest in Superman's rogues gallery as they did with Batman, so they showcased less of them. Bruce Timm even said they brought in Darkseid to beef up the rogues gallery because it was weak without the Kirby additions, which I think is total BS. Lex and Brainiac were great there, but the rest of the classic villains they used only got a couple episodes each and they didn't even touch some others (the Prankster, the Legion of Supervillains, and they didn't use Mongul or Doomsday until JL). And they only used the Legion in one episode, and honestly if forced to choose, I would think the Legion belongs in a Superman production more than the Fourth World stuff.

Batman is easier to design villains for...all you need is a theme, a costume and a gadget. Some bat-villains catch writer's imaginations...others fade into limbo.

Superman is much harder to design an actual threat for...he is practically a demigod. Bank robbers versus Superman is similar to Batman versus Dionysus (the Greek God); it's a bit of a one-sided fight. (Batman loses, by the way.)

I grew up on old Superman and Batman cartoons; I found the Superman's cartoons to be dull compared to Batman's.

Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Myxyzptlk, Bizarro and the Phantom Zone villains are used over and over and over and over again. It's monotonous.
If not them, then Superman fights a one-shot monster or a natural disaster or an alien (that was never seen again).

For a long time, Superman did not have an impressive list of foes...and he's had a lot a catching up to do. I sure many writers have tried to enhance Supe's villains...I just don't know how well they've succeeded.

Since I had limited interest when I was younger, my interested has diminished as I grew older. I think there might be a warning there.

[Vakanai]

Can’t agree. Man of Steel was a colossal misfire that completely failed at rejuvenating Superman. MoS underperformance caused WB to let Snyder shove Batman into what was supposed to be a MoS sequel and led to Superman being completely sidelined. Supes was not a lead in BvS or JL, just a plot device. He had fewer lines in BvS than Spider-Man in CW. There also was not, and still aren’t, any plans for a solo Superman movie, showing how little Snyder or WB cared about the character.

The Hoechlin TV show will at the very least focus on Superman and let him be a character and not a mute suffering SuperJesus whose big arc is going EVILLLLL. That along puts it over the vast majority of Superman’s outside media appearances for the 2010s.

MoS wasn't a complete misfire - it was profitable if divisive. And let's not forget we're comparing this to what we are allegedly going to get now - mere cameos. Can we really say that this is better for Superman going forward than having his own movie? For all that went down, 2010s at least had Superman as a star, not a backup.

Superman never went evil, except maybe one scene in JL. Oh and a dream in BvS. Not really much to go on. Yes I know Snyder had plans, but they never materialized so meh. CW though has given us "Supergirl's lesser" and now Supergirl's lesser is going the Superdad route, which I don't know how divisive that is in this fandom but I'm sure not fond of. So, what I know going forward, isn't looking as good to me as what we got before. I'm not saying the 2010s were a good decade, I largely agree they were bad and caused damage. I'm just saying in this moment the future looks worse for the next several years.

[Vordan]

I mean...I know MoS has it's strong fans and wasn't a complete failure at the box office, but it seemed like the controversy and the lack of an overall warm reception predicted a lot of the trouble DC movies would be having moving forward.

Well yeah, it was still the same guy in charge of everything. I really hope AT&T/WB aren’t actually going to give Snyder the reigns again, or we’ll be right back where we started. Bad enough that Snyder basically killed Superman’s big screen chances for the foreseeable future, I don’t want him messing up anything else. Wish we could just ditch Cavill and start over, he’s not a great actor and he brings way too much baggage with him, but as always, Superman gets an anchor wrapped around his neck while others like Batman get fresh starts.

All I know is that its the 2000s that was the worst decade for Superman ever. The 10s were very hit or miss, the 20s just starting but not starting good (I personally am not of the opinion that the CW show has a leg up on MOS whatsoever). But the aughts is what damaged him REAL bad after a couple decades of sliding (the Death crazy notwithstanding) in a way he hasn't come out of.

2000s had Smallville, JLA, Birthright, and Busiek/Johns Superman work. We got Azzarelo’s and Paul Cornell’s Luthor work. We got some good stuff during that decade even if it was uneven.

The 2010s are worse imo. His big screen return was marred in controversy. His big video game was Injustice which treated him with contempt, plus the Injustice comic which became a lot of people’s favorite comic was also chewing him up. He didn’t get any animated movies until the decade was practically over. He cameo’d in Supergirl and it was cool but didn’t get to do much. American Alien was critically and commercially successful, and then Landis ruined it by revealing himself as a jackass, meaning DC basically abandoned the property. The New 52 Superman was ruined by terrible crossovers and by Berenza being a sexual harasser who kept creators away. Rebirth started strong and ended with a whimper, with both Tomasi and Jurgens doing pretty mediocre meh work by the end (except Super Sons imo). A Super-Family animated cartoon was rejected. Johns Doomsday Clock took forever to finish. This is all my opinion, but the 2010s were his worst decade ever in my eyes.

There’s still rough times ahead, Injustice 3 is coming, the Snyder Cut is coming, we’ve got more evil Superman to suffer through from NRS and Snyder, but I remain hopeful. Rumors say I3 will be the “finale” of the triology, so hopefully I4 will feature a good Superman, and Snyder will be done forever after his Cut comes out and we can finally move on from his terrible Superman. There’s rumors that WBM is working on a Superman game, and these rumors come from some guys who do know some internal info, so maybe Supes will finally get some respect.

[Vordan]

MoS wasn't a complete misfire - it was profitable if divisive. And let's not forget we're comparing this to what we are allegedly going to get now - mere cameos. Can we really say that this is better for Superman going forward than having his own movie? For all that went down, 2010s at least had Superman as a star, not a backup.

Superman never went evil, except maybe one scene in JL. Oh and a dream in BvS. Not really much to go on. Yes I know Snyder had plans, but they never materialized so meh. CW though has given us "Supergirl's lesser" and now Supergirl's lesser is going the Superdad route, which I don't know how divisive that is in this fandom but I'm sure not fond of. So, what I know going forward, isn't looking as good to me as what we got before. I'm not saying the 2010s were a good decade, I largely agree they were bad and caused damage. I'm just saying in this moment the future looks worse for the next several years.

So was Superman Returns. That made more than Batman Begins did, yet I’d hardly call that a win. MoS is the reason he’s been reduced to cameos, and even before Snyder got booted off, there was no plans to make another Superman solo. So MoS basically solidified in WB’s mind that Superman can’t sell. Therefore no, I can’t call MoS a win, it didn’t help Superman at all.