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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    You said, more militaristic heroes like iron man and batman became more popular. I don't sense much militaristic tendencies in either of the characters. Maybe batman, but ironman hasn't had connection atleast in the movies.furthermore,i don't think that's the appeal of the character.Both ironman and batman are self made men when it comes to those specific identities. They proudly tout what they are "i am ironman"&"i am batman".Both these identities are well defined as well. We know what ironman or batman is and what they are about.



    in contrast, superman hasn't been about or cenetered around superman identity since eons. It's either clark or kal el that take up the space. Most don't see identity separate from his other two identities . Even then, what that identity is meant to be is ill defined in modern world. Both ironman and batman built themselves in the face of tragedy and loss in a cave literally . Had the management and industry saw that in the man of tomorrow, he would have done fine. Furthermore, i don't think the cw show is gonna help superman's perception problems. CW shows have a demographics.The reach of those shows, beyond that is also questionable to say the least. I think, if the man of action been made to embrace his exceptionalism, then the character will soar. It doesn't have to be narcissistic, like iron man. It can be altruistic like captain america . Superman tears down the mundanity and chains of clark kent/kal el
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-23-2020 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #17
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Furthermore, i don't think the cw show is gonna help superman's perception problems. CW shows have a demographics.The reach of those shows, beyond that is also questionable to say the least.
    Yeah, the people who state this as a good direction for the character in getting him out there really overestimate the quality and reach of these shows. Superman needs something much more high profile - a big lighthearted bombastic movie like the MCU films or Aquaman, or a game in the same level as the Arkham games, or an HBO expensive high quality series. A CW show right now is just going to be a niche thing for a niche audience for a certain demographic.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah, the people who state this as a good direction for the character in getting him out there really overestimate the quality and reach of these shows. Superman needs something much more high profile - a big lighthearted bombastic movie like the MCU films or Aquaman, or a game in the same level as the Arkham games, or an HBO expensive high quality series. A CW show right now is just going to be a niche thing for a niche audience for a certain demographic.
    Don’t agree, the Flash has become much more popular since his CW show. Smallville made a lot of teens Superman fans. And either way it’s better than nothing, or giving Snyder total control over the character.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Don’t agree, the Flash has become much more popular since his CW show. Smallville made a lot of teens Superman fans. And either way it’s better than nothing, or giving Snyder total control over the character.
    Sure, it made a set of fans. But, did it create fans for the character in the main genre of the character or reached beyond where it is supposed to serve under? Maybe, maybe not. For many this is pretty much nothing. I like jon. He is gonna debut in that show. Yet, i remain very much unfazed. Why? The character's appeal wasn't teen drama for me. With superman the same deal.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-23-2020 at 11:28 PM.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    For a little while, it seemed like Superman was becoming viewed as increasingly outdated by the larger popular culture. However, with the state of the world becoming more and more dire, it seems that people are once again hungry for the kind of hopeful optimistic fun and adventure that Superman brings with him. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been surprised by this. Superman first became a sensation during the uncertain times of the late 30s, and continued to grow in popularity during the wartime 40s and the nuclear anxieties of the 50s. He struggled a bit with relevance during the 60s when he became viewed, rightfully, as a symbol of the establishment. However, as the broken promises of the 60s gave way to the jaded cynicism of the late 70s, Superman again became suddenly relevant again because he was such a cheerfully bright and uncompromised hero in a world seemingly overrun with corruption and moral bankruptcy.

    Unfortunately, Superman didn't fare so well in the 80s, despite the momentary buzz generated by his Reagan era makeover as a football jock turned yuppie. It wasn't until his death that Superman became briefly relevant again, but that didn't last long and the character continued his slow slide away from the forefront of the public consciousness.

    When 9/11 hit, Superman enjoyed another bounce in popularity thanks to the new anxieties of the age of terror, which buoyed Smallville to a decade worth of low budget superhero soap opera TV gold. However, the overt military and high-tech obsessions that dominated the 21st Century culture were ill-suited for Superman, who is neither a soldier, nor someone who really relies upon technology. Instead, more militaristic characters like Batman and Iron Man came to dominate the superhero landscape.

    Most recently, popular culture has, after decades of ignoring them, turned its attention to showcasing a more diverse selection of heroes, which has allowed Wonder Woman and Black Panther to achieve pop culture prominence the likes of which they've never known before. Meanwhile, Superman had seemingly grown less and less important to the conversation as Hollywood, video games and comics failed again and again to recapture whatever it was that had made Superman so popular in the past.

    And yet, I suspect that's slowly changing. I think the public is ready for Superman again after the past few years of watching disaster after disaster build like a slow motion train wreck governed by the most corrupt, dysfunctional and incompetent political landscape in decades. People want to believe in Truth, Justice & The American Way again. They want to see journalists uncovering that truth with integrity and professionalism, rather than for clicks or scoring some momentary victory for their political tribe. We might even want to see heroes who aren't billionaires using that vast inherited wealth to outfit themselves with high tech toys (alright, that one is a long shot, I admit). We want heroes who are motivated primarily by altruism, rather than trauma or guilt. We want to believe that people are worth saving and that we can overcome them by inspiring each other to do good.

    All this is a very long-winded attempt to talk about where we think Superman is heading in the larger public consciousness over the next few years. The darker, more brooding Superman of Zack Snyder is actually going to get a proper send off now that that trilogy of films is being finished for real this time. The CW is launching a new Superman & Lois TV show focused on their lives as heroes, journalists and parents, the comics have been re-energized by various creators bringing their A-game to bring Superman back to forefront of superhero comics. And I suspect that new technologies are going to finally allow designers to produce a video game capable to doing Superman right.

    What do you think? Am I being hopelessly naive? Am I wrong? Am I right? Let me know.
    I wish this were true. And it might be true as well. But it can't be denied that Superman needs to have some great stuff if the character has to come out of the doldrums. People nowadays tend to consume things in bulk.

    Suppose i liked Spider-man in Civil War. I can look up the Raimi films. MCU films. Spiderverse. PS4 game. Cartoons of varying quality. Even the Webb series has fans. If i like Batman and i am curious for more. I can have the Nolan trilogy. Arkham games. Batman TAS. Batman has a lot of great outside stuff. Sadly, Superman does not have that. The Donner films, even though i love them aren't that attractive to a modern viewer. If nothing at least for the visual effects. No good games except Injustice which would actually turn you off from Superman. Shows and cartoons are of a mixed bag.

    All you need is one great product. Or a couple of good ones. Nobody cared for Thor, till Ragnarok, followed by a good show in the following films. Nobody cared for Captain America as well before Winter Soldier, Civil War and the later Avengers films. No one cared for Iron Man till he hit it big with the first Iron Man. Nobody knew who Guardians of the Galaxy were before their movie.

    People tend to like Superman. There was palpable hype before Man of Steel, which grew even more for Batman v Superman. Why do you think the producers thought Man of Steel would gross a billion? Even Batman Begins was a moderate hit earning under 400 million. Its a combination of bad luck and films that did not turn out as expected. Which isn't that surprising as they are very difficult to make. Look at Iron Man 2. Even if you hit it the first time, its not necessary that you can recapture the same magic twice.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-24-2020 at 12:25 AM.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Now this is going to be a controversial opinion but i am beginning to think that the Superman 2000 idea would have really helped the character. Its not necessary that good comics make good films. But they can help.

    One thing i don't like from that idea is the return to the Clark/Lois/Superman love triangle. But all ideas were pretty solid. You had three of the best Superman writers in modern times given the rein to Superman's world. I don't think Morrison could have made something phenomenal like All Star Superman, but his run could have been pretty close. Mark Waid and Millar are great writers. After a two or three year takeover, it would have influenced the writers after them to follow suit.

    Here's a brief rundown to the idea.



    I am however positive to the recent comics. Superman Smashes the Klan is an instant classic. So, is American Alien to a lesser extent. Superman's ditching the secret identity could lead to something great too. Even though i have fuzzy ideas at best. Stories like Mr Oz and formation of United Planets didn't turn out as great as they could have been, they can make some great movies. Jon Kent is a great addition to the mythos. How can no one see the potential to family mixed with superheroics? Incredibles anyone? Up in the Sky can very much be Finding Nemo set in space, if you want to.

    I have been thinking a while, but i think Superman can have much better 3D animated movies then live action. Live action has higher costs. But animation has ability to bring insane worlds and scenarios to life with lesser costs. WB can try to be be ambitious in animation. Instead of making some 2D snimated films for fans, why not make CG animated films for theatrical releases? That media seems more profitable for comic book characters. Into the Spiderverse is the best Spider-man film imo. And Pixar films often turn out way better then most live action films.

    I am still waiting for that elusive Superman game. Megaton Rainfall had some aspects you can put in a Superman game. Technology seems more closer to bring the Superman experience.

    The Snyder Cut news actually makes me happy. I am not a big fan of these films. But we are going to get some form of Superman in film. Its hard to be in a time of superhero boom, where there is no Superman movie in works.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-24-2020 at 01:01 AM.

  7. #22
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You said, more militaristic heroes like iron man and batman became more popular. I don't sense much militaristic tendencies in either of the characters. l
    I mean militaristic in the sense that they are both drapped in trappings of a soldier, even if they are soldiers for the greater good rather representing any particular government. Tony Stark is weapons manufacturer for the US military who decides to become a one man army. The first two Iron Man movies in particular are heavily involved with the military. Batman is essentially waging his own one man war against crime and, with the Nolan movies, wore body armor and used weapons and technology originally designed for military soldiers. And this was in addition to the very unsubtle themes involving the war on terror

  8. #23
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Don’t agree, the Flash has become much more popular since his CW show. Smallville made a lot of teens Superman fans. And either way it’s better than nothing, or giving Snyder total control over the character.
    SMALLVILLE was also on 10 years ago, which was a different time. Network TV still had a place in the conversation.

    I think Superman will likely plunge deeper into obscurity over the next decade, unless a film or cartoon series really amps him up. While it is true that Superman came about during trying times, and we are in an equally trying time now- Superman is a very different character now than he was. He's Mr. Status Quo for the most part, and that is never going to be appealing en masse. Even Captain America, saw a huge boost in popularity as the outlaw of the MCU- leveraging more American cowboy sensibilities than the big authoritarian heroes of the Avengers.

    Being on the CW during an otherwise Golden Age of television, won't help either. It also shows a lack of faith in the concept, which after BvS/JL is to be expected (although none of those were Superman-as-a-character's fault).
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 05-24-2020 at 08:48 AM.

  9. #24
    Fantastic Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    For the general audience he is just a very cool looking T-shirt.

    I haven't met anyone who doesn't read comics and likes Superman and its not their fault. What could they interest them in him? Think about his major outings, the awful JLU cartoon characterization, the boring Superman Returns, the Man of Steel movie which like it or not, it really didn't sell people on Superman, BvS and JL didn't capture the heart of the general audience. And if the Snyder Cut is a success in bringing in people, I still don't know what kind of example will set for Superman. Because Superman will be deranged for a good chunk of the movie and Snyder's planned to turn him evil. JLAction had a cool Supes but the series never got traction and I doubt the kids watching it will remember it when they grow up.

    The best received mainstream outing of Superman is the INJUSTICE games....and that says a lot.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I think what Superman really needs right now is just one really good movie. One where he doesn't have to compete with anyone else. Not Batman, not WW, not the rest of the League. Just a great stand alone movie. Superman and Lois is a nice placeholder but none of the CW shows really stand out in the public consciousness. And, don't get me wrong, I'm grateful to have it. But it's not going to put him on the map again like a movie would. This is why I think they need to sit down with Cavill and just hash this out. Movies are merchandise gold. Keep Synder as far away from it as possible and maybe bring in Patty Jenkins.
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_of_Tomorrow View Post
    For the general audience he is just a very cool looking T-shirt.

    I haven't met anyone who doesn't read comics and likes Superman and its not their fault. What could they interest them in him? Think about his major outings, the awful JLU cartoon characterization, the boring Superman Returns, the Man of Steel movie which like it or not, it really didn't sell people on Superman, BvS and JL didn't capture the heart of the general audience. And if the Snyder Cut is a success in bringing in people, I still don't know what kind of example will set for Superman. Because Superman will be deranged for a good chunk of the movie and Snyder's planned to turn him evil. JLAction had a cool Supes but the series never got traction and I doubt the kids watching it will remember it when they grow up.

    The best received mainstream outing of Superman is the INJUSTICE games....and that says a lot.
    This pretty much is the truth we are staring at. If i wasn'treading comics i wouldn't care for the character at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    SMALLVILLE was also on 10 years ago, which was a different time. Network TV still had a place in the conversation.

    I think Superman will likely plunge deeper into obscurity over the next decade, unless a film or cartoon series really amps him up. While it is true that Superman came about during trying times, and we are in an equally trying time now- Superman is a very different character now than he was. He's Mr. Status Quo for the most part, and that is never going to be appealing en masse. Even Captain America, saw a huge boost in popularity as the outlaw of the MCU- leveraging more American cowboy sensibilities than the big authoritarian heroes of the Avengers.

    Being on the CW during an otherwise Golden Age of television, won't help either. It also shows a lack of faith in the concept, which after BvS/JL is to be expected (although none of those were Superman-as-a-character's fault).
    Snyder's films had the right ideas. Superman was at odds with the government. This feels natural. Of course, governement will be fearful if this powerful guy shows up. But because this didn't turn out that well we will see a resurgence to old.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-24-2020 at 10:07 AM.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I have to say though mainstreaming idea of superman largely has personality of a wet towel.I hope something that doesn't play into it.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think Clark's arguably in a slightly better place than he was ten years ago. I think people are getting tired of the grit and edgy stuff and are slowly starting to shift towards wanting a hero who can show a better way, instead of a hero who tells them their worst impulses are justified. The last few years especially have shown us where that mindset takes us, and nobody is happy with the results. If Clark's popularity hasn't shifted at all (and I don't think it's moved much) then I think we're at least getting closer to a cultural mindset where, with a fairly small push, it could regain some solid ground.

    We've had a few quality Super-things here and there, JLAction and some fun appearances in things like DC Super Hero Girls, and things like Injustice (the first game had a quality "good" Superman, not just the tyrant) and Snyder's films have their fans. Lots of different demographics getting small glimpses of Clark's true worth. But I think we can look at the critics of the DCEU films as a way to gauge things; if people had stopped caring about Superman then there wouldn't have been nearly as much complaining. The fact that people bitched as much as they did could be seen as proof that people still care, and they're just not getting the Superman they need.

    I think all it would take is one high quality, popular product; a film or game or show, and our man is back on top. People want to love Superman; it's burned into our DNA. It's not people who have failed Superman and it's not Superman who failed people, it's WB who have failed us all. If they stumble on a winning product, I think it'll blow everyone's minds how fast Clark regains his former popularity. Maybe he won't overtake Batman but he'll close the distance. We just have to get that product that, for once, actually gets it right.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  14. #29
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Don’t agree, the Flash has become much more popular since his CW show. Smallville made a lot of teens Superman fans. And either way it’s better than nothing, or giving Snyder total control over the character.
    I'll agree it's better than nothing - but disagree on CW contributing much if anything to pop culture. Flash's popularity just seems like it went up much to you because you're a fan and thus are on the sites were fans congregate, and the CW does make new Flash fans. But it isn't that much, not in comparison to the wider world. It's like a million people tops, who are largely just fans of that version. That seems like a big number, but in pop culture awareness it just isn't.

  15. #30
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think Clark's arguably in a slightly better place than he was ten years ago. I think people are getting tired of the grit and edgy stuff and are slowly starting to shift towards wanting a hero who can show a better way, instead of a hero who tells them their worst impulses are justified.
    That's easy to say if all you do is read comics, but we're talking pop culture, and in pop culture grit and edge isn't what people are getting, they're getting the bright and cheery MCU. Basically Superman's lighthearted style is the norm. On the one hand that could be good for him, on the other it means he has to compete in his own space. He can't just be "not gritty" and expect people to find it a breath of fresh air. Comic fans are tired of the gritty and edgy and will welcome something new, the movie audience though is already in a bright and hopeful Marvel universe.

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