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  1. #61
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think the CW shows are the global juggernaut that the MCU is, but they do reach a sizeable audience around the world. Trust me, prior to Covid-19, I traveled extensively around Asia, Europe and North America. Those CW shows are very popular with the kids, as is Riverdale.
    Or maybe you just have a lot of exposure to the niche CW audience?
    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    It has been a good run, it may be time to pack it in.

    Personally I'd like to see Superman be returned to kids. Get some cartoons going, maybe a nice big Pixar-y animated flick. I'm not interested in animation, but I've enjoyed the character enough- let the concept grow again.
    I don't get this - Superman doesn't need to be returned to kids, he never left them. Why is it always "a character is for us (adults) or kids" with some fans? Superman can and should have stories for kids, for adults, and for both. This just for one or the other idea will make him more obscure. He should have an animated theatrical movie for kids, a live action Marvel styled movie for families, a cartoon series, an adult Black Label title, an R-rated Joker style Lex Luthor movie, and some edgy PG 13 DTV movies. Give us a Superman for every audience. I mean, it's worked for Batman so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That's a fair point, but Clark's appeal has never been in being the "not gritty one" and the success of the MCU is only a good thing for all of us. If a film is quality, he doesn't have to worry about the competition any more than Aquaman did.

    I suppose it's true that the MCU has pushed fans of the genre out of the "grimdark" stuff, but plenty of things still revolve around that hook. People were talking about Game of Thrones earlier and you don't get much more grimdark and twisted than that. Breaking Bad, Lost....all the shows in recent memory that have dominated the pop culture discussion have been pretty serious and screwed up. The MCU is kind of an outlier in this, and some of their films haven't just been zingers and action set pieces either.

    I definitely agree with the idea of giving Superman back to kids. That's who he belongs to, not old bastards like me. Smashes the Klan seems like a good place to start. Done right, that's the kind of movie that would make Into the Spider-Verse seem like a modest success.
    1. Superman doesn't really belong to kids - Superman belongs to everybody. He belongs to kids, he belongs to 30-something adults like me, and he belongs to old bastards like you too. That's part of the greatness of Superman. Let's not do him the disservice of thinking he's only for a certain age group of the populace. There should be more Superman kid content, but that's not all there should be.

    2. The Marvel being an outlier to the grim dark stuff is wrong. Pretty much every era of pop culture is full of extremes. How many people who loved The Big Bang Theory also enjoyed JOKER? Aquaman and Game of Thrones? The MCU and Breaking Bad? People aren't all about the gritty stuff, nor the lighthearted stuff, neither dominates pop culture. People love both extremes in fiction when done well. The 70s gave us Superman The Movie, Star Wars, and I think The Godfather and Dirty Harry. The 80s had Indiana Jones, the Goonies, Back to the Future, and more horror slasher films than you can shake a machete at. Neither dominates.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I don't trust Hollywood doing anime based movies.
    Why not? I'd pretty excited to see Zac Efron play Shinji Ikari whenever they get around to do a Neon Genesis Evangelion movie...

    But as for saying Superman belongs to kids, I think it's fair to say that, kind of like saying Mario belongs to kids. A lot of adults play Mario games, but if Shigeru Miyamoto were forced to make a game that appealed to 90% kids and 5% adults, or 5% kids and 90% adults, he'd pick the former every time, and it would be the right move. I'm all for making Superman content for all ages, but I think we're they're really missing the ball is with kids.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 05-25-2020 at 05:32 PM.

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Why not? I'd pretty excited to see Zac Efron play Shinji Ikari whenever they get around to do a Neon Genesis Evangelion movie...
    Oof, don't even joke. I'm pretty grateful that Evangelion live action project seems to have fallen into development hell. I don't want to even think of what Hollywood would do with an Evangelion Cinematic Universe that would crash and burn.

    Would totally watch an Asuka-Mari buddy cop movie though

  4. #64
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Why not? I'd pretty excited to see Zac Efron play Shinji Ikari whenever they get around to do a Neon Genesis Evangelion movie...

    But as for saying Superman belongs to kids, I think it's fair to say that, kind of like saying Mario belongs to kids. A lot of adults play Mario games, but if Shigeru Miyamoto were forced to make a game that appealed to 90% kids and 5% adults, or 5% kids and 90% adults, he'd pick the former every time, and it would be the right move. I'm all for making Superman content for all ages, but I think we're they're really missing the ball is with kids.
    I never watched Evangelion, but still that's a bad joke...

    And that Mario comparison isn't really fair. They're different characters, different concepts, different genre, mediums, and so forth. Never mind Mario has never had more mature offerings or stories - Superman has. But to top it off the the ending argument is moot - there's no need to do only a thing to appeal to 90% kids and 5% adults, or 5% kids and 90% adults. Unlike Mario who mostly just gets one game every year or so, Superman has so many books, shows, movies, other media to choose from that you don't ever need to pick a narrow audience - there's plenty of opportunities to make stuff for both.

    The Mario comparison just doesn't work, thankfully.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    My bigger point was that saying Superman "belongs to kids" doesn't mean he can't be appealing to adults, too. It's more that if there's any area demographic with which you absolutely shouldn't fail in marketing the character, it's for younger members of consumer population. I think WB has had some good offerings for Superman for kids, but they fly too far under the radar.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    They are doing evangalion? With hollywoods track record with those materials. Please, tell me it ain't happening. I suffered too many death notes

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    There were talks about doing it, but it never got far.

    I'd rather they didn't make it, but I'd be shocked if they made something worse than Dragon Ball Evolution or King of Fighters.

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    1. Superman doesn't really belong to kids - Superman belongs to everybody. He belongs to kids, he belongs to 30-something adults like me, and he belongs to old bastards like you too. That's part of the greatness of Superman. Let's not do him the disservice of thinking he's only for a certain age group of the populace. There should be more Superman kid content, but that's not all there should be.
    Ah, you misunderstood. I probably wasn't clear. I should've said he "doesn't *just* belong to old bastards like me." My bad.

    Superman is for everyone yes, but what group has no material? Kids. We've got very dour, serious movies in the recent past that are aimed at an adult crowd capable of and interested in a deeper analysis of the story, we've got a upcoming soap opera on the CW, we've got games aimed at that teenager-ish "who'd win?" kind of entertainment.

    Where's the Superman material for kids? We've got Smashes the Klan, a role in the ensemble JLAction cartoon and.....I think that's it.

    Superman should be given back to the kids, but that doesn't mean taking him away from the rest of us. But there should 100000% absolutely be more effort put into kids material than what we're getting.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #69
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Or maybe you just have a lot of exposure to the niche CW audience?
    .
    If kids ranging from elementary school to university are considered a niche audience, then sure. The CW shows are not 4 quadrant blockbusters like the MCU. However, the audience these shows do attract happen to be one of the most sought after demographics.

    If you don't want to believe that the CW shows are very lucrative, that's fine, but they would not keep making them if they weren't popular. My point remains that giving Superman a CW show is a big boost to his visibility.

    Obviously, it's not 1992 again when having a prime time TV show meant could mean hundreds of millions of viewers, but I think it's yet another positive sign for the character in terms of gaining new fans, particularly among kids who haven't been exposed to Superman as much.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I think CW shows might have respectable ROIs, but the initial investment wasn't very big in the first place. As long as they jive with their audience, they'll be OK, but their audience will always be relatively small, kind of like the audience for WB/DC direct-to-video animated movies.

  11. #71
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    If kids ranging from elementary school to university are considered a niche audience, then sure. The CW shows are not 4 quadrant blockbusters like the MCU. However, the audience these shows do attract happen to be one of the most sought after demographics.

    If you don't want to believe that the CW shows are very lucrative, that's fine, but they would not keep making them if they weren't popular. My point remains that giving Superman a CW show is a big boost to his visibility.

    Obviously, it's not 1992 again when having a prime time TV show meant could mean hundreds of millions of viewers, but I think it's yet another positive sign for the character in terms of gaining new fans, particularly among kids who haven't been exposed to Superman as much.
    The CW shows are cheap and probably break a bit more than even to warrant production. They also keep those IPs active. WB isn't really making a huge profit off their existence, but they can market it and play it on the CW and than sell it to Netflix or put it on their new MAX service.

    It's kind of like how Hulu will put out a lot of low budget horror flicks. It isn't really to make a profit off them, it's to have a lot of choice on their platform.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 05-26-2020 at 09:57 AM.

  12. #72
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ah, you misunderstood. I probably wasn't clear. I should've said he "doesn't *just* belong to old bastards like me." My bad.

    Superman is for everyone yes, but what group has no material? Kids. We've got very dour, serious movies in the recent past that are aimed at an adult crowd capable of and interested in a deeper analysis of the story, we've got a upcoming soap opera on the CW, we've got games aimed at that teenager-ish "who'd win?" kind of entertainment.

    Where's the Superman material for kids? We've got Smashes the Klan, a role in the ensemble JLAction cartoon and.....I think that's it.

    Superman should be given back to the kids, but that doesn't mean taking him away from the rest of us. But there should 100000% absolutely be more effort put into kids material than what we're getting.
    My bigger point was that saying Superman "belongs to kids" doesn't mean he can't be appealing to adults, too. It's more that if there's any area demographic with which you absolutely shouldn't fail in marketing the character, it's for younger members of consumer population. I think WB has had some good offerings for Superman for kids, but they fly too far under the radar.
    Exactly.

    Superman can't just exist in niche market PG 13/R rated animated flicks and the CW soap operas. He needs wonder and adventure, things both those extremes lack. He needs to be accessible to kids the way he was originally accessible to the fanbase now.

    Superman should be able to have a big budget flick for an older crowd, but also exist in media for all ages. Doesn't mean it has to be THE WIGGLES, just stuff that has all ages appeal. More THE ROCKETEER and INDIANA JONES.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 05-26-2020 at 10:02 AM.

  13. #73
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    I think one of the major obstacles Superman faces is that he's become more of an archetype and a symbol than a character. He's basically the personaification of Goodness with a capital G, the generic symbol of truth and justice. Everyone wants to project their ideals and their hopes onto the character...their idea of what Superman should be. Which makes it hard to get people behind any particular version.

    Batman doesn't face that problem. Spider-Man doesn't face that problem. The Avengers don't face that problem. But Superman does.

    Zack Snyder's Superman is "too dark". Donner's Superman is the "real" Superman but he's too cheesy and old-fashioned...ergo, Superman is cheesy and old-fashioned. Superman should be cheesy and old-fashioned. Superman is too cheesy and old-fashioned...he needs to get "darker".

    This is just one example of the kind of cyclical arguments that plague the character...leaving DC/WB damned if they do and damned if they don't.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I love cheese, But with depth and in a non mocking way. I had no problem with allmight. He is the cheesiest guy.

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Batman doesn't face that problem. Spider-Man doesn't face that problem. The Avengers don't face that problem. But Superman does.
    Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

    Clark isn't the highest selling comic character, but he's still *the* comic character. He started it all and is still the most well known superhero on earth; so any complaint you could possibly throw at the super-powered, cape wearing crowd gets aimed at Clark whether he deserves it or not.

    They say he's over powered, yet tons of characters are just as powerful or more powerful and get a free pass.

    They say he's two dimensional and boring, yet is deeper and more nuanced than the vast majority of fictional characters I've ever come across.

    There's plenty of critiques to make about Clark, but he gets blamed for everything, warranted or not, because he's the god damn Superman and everybody else is just following the path he blazed.

    This is just one example of the kind of cyclical arguments that plague the character...leaving DC/WB damned if they do and damned if they don't.
    This, I gotta disagree with. Superman is not hard. There's no carefully constructed, secret recipe to getting him right. WB is damned if they do and damned if they don't not because Clark is a difficult character to get right, but because they can't wrap their heads around the fact that he's not Batman.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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