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  1. #76
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    My bigger point was that saying Superman "belongs to kids" doesn't mean he can't be appealing to adults, too. It's more that if there's any area demographic with which you absolutely shouldn't fail in marketing the character, it's for younger members of consumer population. I think WB has had some good offerings for Superman for kids, but they fly too far under the radar.
    True, they should definitely market their kid friendly offerings better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ah, you misunderstood. I probably wasn't clear. I should've said he "doesn't *just* belong to old bastards like me." My bad.

    Superman is for everyone yes, but what group has no material? Kids. We've got very dour, serious movies in the recent past that are aimed at an adult crowd capable of and interested in a deeper analysis of the story, we've got a upcoming soap opera on the CW, we've got games aimed at that teenager-ish "who'd win?" kind of entertainment.

    Where's the Superman material for kids? We've got Smashes the Klan, a role in the ensemble JLAction cartoon and.....I think that's it.

    Superman should be given back to the kids, but that doesn't mean taking him away from the rest of us. But there should 100000% absolutely be more effort put into kids material than what we're getting.
    Oh that I can agree on. Instead of saying given back to kids, since he was never taken away from them, I think it's more accurate to say more focus should be put in that demographic since they've been under serving it for some years. And I would definitely like to see them make more efforts in that direction too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    If kids ranging from elementary school to university are considered a niche audience, then sure. The CW shows are not 4 quadrant blockbusters like the MCU. However, the audience these shows do attract happen to be one of the most sought after demographics.

    If you don't want to believe that the CW shows are very lucrative, that's fine, but they would not keep making them if they weren't popular. My point remains that giving Superman a CW show is a big boost to his visibility.

    Obviously, it's not 1992 again when having a prime time TV show meant could mean hundreds of millions of viewers, but I think it's yet another positive sign for the character in terms of gaining new fans, particularly among kids who haven't been exposed to Superman as much.
    Look, you can go on about the age range, but it's about proportion - it's still a bit over a million viewers or something. It's a sliver of those age groups. You're the only one arguing that it's bigger, everyone else is saying it's more niche and providing number. Admittedly I'm not asking for sources but still. It just sounds too small to matter, despite the luck you have in meeting their audience in the real world.

  2. #77
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Exactly.

    Superman can't just exist in niche market PG 13/R rated animated flicks and the CW soap operas. He needs wonder and adventure, things both those extremes lack. He needs to be accessible to kids the way he was originally accessible to the fanbase now.

    Superman should be able to have a big budget flick for an older crowd, but also exist in media for all ages. Doesn't mean it has to be THE WIGGLES, just stuff that has all ages appeal. More THE ROCKETEER and INDIANA JONES.
    Aka he needs an MCU/Aquaman type movie. Agreed.

    But I think he also needs a Ben 10 styled action cartoon. But CN hasn't been kind to DC outside of Teen Titans GO! so... I guess the best we can hope for is more presence in the Lego stuff, and something like those Batman Unlimited movies but for Superman.

  3. #78
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Oh that I can agree on. Instead of saying given back to kids, since he was never taken away from them, I think it's more accurate to say more focus should be put in that demographic since they've been under serving it for some years. And I would definitely like to see them make more efforts in that direction too.
    Yeah, totally worded that other post poorly. Was trying to type here and have a conversation about the Wheel of Time, current events, and get the kids ready for bed all at once.

    Look, you can go on about the age range, but it's about proportion - it's still a bit over a million viewers or something. It's a sliver of those age groups. You're the only one arguing that it's bigger, everyone else is saying it's more niche and providing number. Admittedly I'm not asking for sources but still. It just sounds too small to matter, despite the luck you have in meeting their audience in the real world.
    I don't know enough about tv network figures to know whether a million viewers is good or not, especially for this specific network. The CW definitely caters to a specific demographic, and on the surface at least it does seem limited. But we can't forget that these things have factors that go beyond rated viewership. What're the streaming/Netflix figures like? Blu-ray sales? Pirating? How many people watch the shows without being counted by Nelson, or whoever it is that handles this data? Then there's the impact that goes beyond the tv itself; magazine and online articles, Youtube clips, morning talk shows, friggin storylines in DCU Online, whatever.

    Anyone who has superheroes on their radar at all will be aware of the CW shows. And having a current presence in the pop culture conversation *is* important. Smallville, I'm sorry, but Smallville was typically not good television yet it lasted for ten years; how many people watched that show, for any length of time, and walked away with it informing (for good or bad) their opinion of Superman? How many people became fans? If, after ten years on the air, Superman only gained 100,000 new fans, that's still more people than who buy his floppies each month.

    I don't know what kind of impact the CW has, on Clark or anyone else. But if you only look at the viewership each week, you're missing a lot of important variables.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    CW live viewership numbers are not the only numbers that matter. Bored is talking about outside the US for one thing which are definitely distinct from whatever that million number of viewers is. The Flash was in the top 10 on Netflix over the weekend, that's the entire US and definitely has a larger reach. People were talking about how The Witcher remade Cavill's career and that was just on Netflix, so what matters and what doesn't here seems to depend a lot on POV. It's not just the live viewership numbers that matter. Smallville was a top show on Hulu for a long time (I believe it's still a pretty popular one).

    I mean, how many MCU fans are fans of RJD or Chris Evans vs Iron Man and Captain America. Aquaman and Black Panther haven't exactly caught up to Superman in any way shape or form and they have billion dollar movies. So this constant negativity doesn't really track with the actual state of the pop culture or even the longevity of the characters that are now "in" compared to Superman. Modern Pop Culture relevance is fleeting and doesn't exactly translate into longevity.

  5. #80
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    I never said the CW didn't count or didn't have an impact - I just feel like we're counting it a little too much. It has an impact - this impact is so miniscule when compared to the movies and videogames however that I don't understand why it's the main topic here. For something that comprises the smallest amount of Superman's pop culture presence, it is taking up the most discussion.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Videogames barely sell a million copies and are a niche market too. Comic books reach like 40k people. That is miniscule. A top ten show on Netflix or a show that was on the air for a decade isn't irrelevant.

    Superman has had very successful television shows and that has done a lot to keep him in the public consciousness over the decades. So the idea that that doesn't matter or is miniscule compared to a videogame that sells one or two million copies is ridiculous.
    Last edited by Yoda; 05-26-2020 at 05:06 PM.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Videogames barely sell a million copies and are a niche market too. Comic books reach like 40k people. That is miniscule. A top ten show on Netflix or a show that was on the air for a decade isn't irrelevant.

    Superman has had very successful television shows and that has done a lot to keep him in the public consciousness over the decades. So the idea that that doesn't matter or is miniscule compared to a videogame that sells one or two million copies is ridiculous.
    Hah! Not anymore man, GTAV sold over a hundred million copies. Witcher 3 sold over 20 million I think. The “big” video games can do over 10 million.

    That said I totally agree with you. If Superman & Lois ends up on HBO Max or DC Universe or Netflix, it’s going to help him. I mean consider this: If this show was not getting made, the only big outside media featuring Superman we’d be getting is Injustice, and that’s hardly a positive for Superman.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Yeah, seconded on video games. These are huge businesses. It should also be pointed out that the estimated cost of GTA V was $265 million. People spend huge bucks on these games because they make bank, and if you leverage in-game purchases and DLC these things can become huge cash cows in ways TV simply cannot.

    Anyway, The Witcher was an expensive show to make. While only being eight episodes, it's estimated to cost about $10 million per episode, so $80 million for season 1. I read that a season of The Flash costs about $3 million per episode, so a 23-episode season was about $70 million. And by Netflix's (faulty) metrics, it was the most-watched first season of any show, at 76 million viewers.

    That 76 million number is crap, though. They changed their metrics to having watched at least 2 minutes. I mean, #1 is #1, but 76 million probably doesn't come close to indicating how many people actually "watched" the show in the way most people think of "watching" a show.

    All in all,

  9. #84
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Aka he needs an MCU/Aquaman type movie. Agreed.

    But I think he also needs a Ben 10 styled action cartoon. But CN hasn't been kind to DC outside of Teen Titans GO! so... I guess the best we can hope for is more presence in the Lego stuff, and something like those Batman Unlimited movies but for Superman.
    Exactly! Something like SHAZAM, budget-wise. SHAZAM was so good.

  10. #85
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    CW live viewership numbers are not the only numbers that matter. Bored is talking about outside the US for one thing which are definitely distinct from whatever that million number of viewers is. The Flash was in the top 10 on Netflix over the weekend, that's the entire US and definitely has a larger reach. People were talking about how The Witcher remade Cavill's career and that was just on Netflix, so what matters and what doesn't here seems to depend a lot on POV. It's not just the live viewership numbers that matter. Smallville was a top show on Hulu for a long time (I believe it's still a pretty popular one).

    I mean, how many MCU fans are fans of RJD or Chris Evans vs Iron Man and Captain America. Aquaman and Black Panther haven't exactly caught up to Superman in any way shape or form and they have billion dollar movies. So this constant negativity doesn't really track with the actual state of the pop culture or even the longevity of the characters that are now "in" compared to Superman. Modern Pop Culture relevance is fleeting and doesn't exactly translate into longevity.
    Black Panther is definitely catching up, as is Aquaman.

    The CW just doesn't have any real presence. A lot of that stuff is there simply to fill slots on streaming services. Hulu does that all the time with lower budget flicks, it gives the back catalog a larger selection. More choices (or the illusion thereof). I'm sure it has it's fans, but that is just a tiny percentage of the scope and audience Superman COULD have with a bigger platform. He's a huge character, being forced into a niche demographic.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 05-26-2020 at 06:25 PM.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Black Panther is definitely catching up, as is Aquaman.

    The CW just doesn't have any real presence. A lot of that stuff is there simply to fill slots on streaming services. Hulu does that all the time with lower budget flicks, it gives the back catalog a larger selection. More choices (or the illusion thereof). I'm sure it has it's fans, but that is just a tiny percentage of the scope and audience Superman COULD have with a bigger platform. He's a huge character, being forced into a niche demographic.
    Yeah, the CW is making a decade worth of superhero shows to fill slots on a streaming service. Ok. I legitimately cannot understand the amount of work going into trying to minimize these shows. It's hilarious.

    The Injustice series isn't a 20 million seller. Most games are no where near that level.

  12. #87
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Videogames barely sell a million copies and are a niche market too. Comic books reach like 40k people. That is miniscule. A top ten show on Netflix or a show that was on the air for a decade isn't irrelevant.

    Superman has had very successful television shows and that has done a lot to keep him in the public consciousness over the decades. So the idea that that doesn't matter or is miniscule compared to a videogame that sells one or two million copies is ridiculous.
    I didn't mention comic books because they are so miniscule, more so than even the CW - doesn't make the CW big enough to be as big a part of this conversation as it is. And I said nothing about the importance of tv shows in general, just the CW stuff, which is not on the same level as other networks and platforms TV shows air or premiere on.

    As for videogames, they sell a lot, lot, lot more than a million these days. Seriously, some games are on the level of big Hollywood movie audiences now. Billion dollar plus industry. (Or so I've heard it being hyped - not a gamer myself)

  13. #88
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Exactly! Something like SHAZAM, budget-wise. SHAZAM was so good.
    No, any live action Superman should have a much higher budget than Shazam, but Shazam was a good tone for a Superman movie.

  14. #89
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Yeah, the CW is making a decade worth of superhero shows to fill slots on a streaming service. Ok. I legitimately cannot understand the amount of work going into trying to minimize these shows. It's hilarious.

    The Injustice series isn't a 20 million seller. Most games are no where near that level.
    And we're not understanding the amount of work you're putting into trying to maximize these shows. No one said they don't count or matter at all, just that they're the smallest influencer when talking about other media outlets. The CW isn't the pop culture definer. It's there, but it doesn't deserve the focus you want to give to it.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Watchmen's cumulative viewing over the whole season was 7 million. It premiered at 750,000. It's finale got 1.6 million. That's HBO.

    If the standard for success is 20 million viewers, thats ridiculous.

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