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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Watchmen's cumulative viewing over the whole season was 7 million. It premiered at 750,000. It's finale got 1.6 million. That's HBO.

    If the standard for success is 20 million viewers, thats ridiculous.
    You pull that from Hollywood Reporter? The 7 million was the average per episode across all media. THR estimates that 90% of the viewers watched it after it aired on TV.

    Anyway, a million viewers on HBO is not the same as a million viewers on CW. People pay extra money to watch HBO; that's HBO's barrier to entry for its viewers. For the CW, the barrier to entry is having to call your cable provider to find out if they carry the CW network. Thank goodness for those new remotes that let you say the station name, because what a hassle it'd be to keep flipping through hundreds of channels before you arrive to the right one... Whether or not you like the content, HBO shows are considered prestige television, with high budgets and extra press coverage.

    BTW, are there sites that actually show Netflix viewership counts, as crappy of a metric as that is? Trending now is algorithm-based on the actual user's viewing habits. I saw The Flash trending for me, but that's because I watch all sorts of superhero content on Netflix, and my friend who may or may not borrow my account (and may or may not lend me his D+... ) watches some superhero-related stuff, too.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 05-26-2020 at 06:59 PM.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    It says cumulative across the season. The premier only got 1.5 million viewers total. Which are similar numbers to what people are using to minimize the importance of CW shows. What are the cross platform viewers then and replay viewers for CW stuff? Why does that count for Watchmen and not a CW show? Just use the same metrics to critique things.

    Whether or not something is considered "prestige" these days is a bit of a joke. Everything is prestige. And it doesn't translate into lasting pop culture popularity because pop culture moves fast.

    And I think you all are selling the impact of CW shows pretty short. I'm the "comic geek" among my kids parent group and co-workers, CW shows and MCU movies are brought up with pretty much the same regularity by the "casuals" to me particularly once they are on Netflix. People watch them, especially when they stream after the seasons. So this idea that they don't matter to Superman's pop culture relevance is really puzzling to me. Bored said anecdotally they CW superhero shows are big internationally as well. And the response was to dismiss that out of hand.

    Netflix now lists the top ten shows in the US per day. That's not based on individual viewing habits. Whether it's bunk or not is up for debate. But if it's good enough to call the Witcher a hit it's good enough to call the Flash relevant. Just have some consistency.

  3. #93
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    The CW shows are cheap and probably break a bit more than even to warrant production. They also keep those IPs active. WB isn't really making a huge profit off their existence, but they can market it and play it on the CW and than sell it to Netflix or put it on their new MAX service.

    It's kind of like how Hulu will put out a lot of low budget horror flicks. It isn't really to make a profit off them, it's to have a lot of choice on their platform.
    I think we're all slipping into speculation here, as none of us actually know how much money these CW shows are making. However, I think they have to be doing more than breaking even, otherwise they wouldn't keep making more of them. That said, I totally buy that a quirky little oddball like Legends of Tomorrow is only breaking even, though.

  4. #94
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    CW live viewership numbers are not the only numbers that matter. Bored is talking about outside the US for one thing which are definitely distinct from whatever that million number of viewers is. The Flash was in the top 10 on Netflix over the weekend, that's the entire US and definitely has a larger reach. People were talking about how The Witcher remade Cavill's career and that was just on Netflix, so what matters and what doesn't here seems to depend a lot on POV. It's not just the live viewership numbers that matter. Smallville was a top show on Hulu for a long time (I believe it's still a pretty popular one).

    I mean, how many MCU fans are fans of RJD or Chris Evans vs Iron Man and Captain America. Aquaman and Black Panther haven't exactly caught up to Superman in any way shape or form and they have billion dollar movies. So this constant negativity doesn't really track with the actual state of the pop culture or even the longevity of the characters that are now "in" compared to Superman. Modern Pop Culture relevance is fleeting and doesn't exactly translate into longevity.
    Bingo.

    The world is very, very different in terms of a character's pop cultural impact. Very, very few TV shows have that kind of reach anymore. If you have millions of people watching something all over the world, that's a big deal today, which the CW shows do. I can't give you exact numbers because Netflix doesn't give out those numbers, nor do I have the time or interest in tracking down all the many international networks that those shows are airing on currently. And then of course there is the unseen giant that is the massive international audience that views these shows using piracy.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    It says cumulative across the season. The premier only got 1.5 million viewers total. Which are similar numbers to what people are using to minimize the importance of CW shows. What are the cross platform viewers then and replay viewers for CW stuff? Why does that count for Watchmen and not a CW show? Just use the same metrics to critique things.

    Whether or not something is considered "prestige" these days is a bit of a joke. Everything is prestige. And it doesn't translate into lasting pop culture popularity because pop culture moves fast.

    And I think you all are selling the impact of CW shows pretty short. I'm the "comic geek" among my kids parent group and co-workers, CW shows and MCU movies are brought up with pretty much the same regularity by the "casuals" to me particularly once they are on Netflix. People watch them, especially when they stream after the seasons. So this idea that they don't matter to Superman's pop culture relevance is really puzzling to me. Bored said anecdotally they CW superhero shows are big internationally as well. And the response was to dismiss that out of hand.

    Netflix now lists the top ten shows in the US per day. That's not based on individual viewing habits. Whether it's bunk or not is up for debate. But if it's good enough to call the Witcher a hit it's good enough to call the Flash relevant. Just have some consistency.
    From THR:

    Watchmen is averaging better than 7 million viewers per episode across all platforms to date, per HBO. Its initial audience for the season is 759,000, meaning it has gathered almost 90 percent of its viewership after the initial airing.
    Anyway, I reiterate that 1 million viewers on a premium network that you have to fork out extra bucks to watch is always going to be better than 1 million viewers on an over-the-air or basic cable network, or in the case of CW, a network that has to buy air time on another network.

    I agree that "prestige television" is kind of a weasel term, but on a viewer-per-viewer level, everything on HBO is more culturally relevant than anything on CW.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 05-26-2020 at 07:36 PM.

  6. #96
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I never said the CW didn't count or didn't have an impact - I just feel like we're counting it a little too much. It has an impact - this impact is so miniscule when compared to the movies and videogames however that I don't understand why it's the main topic here. For something that comprises the smallest amount of Superman's pop culture presence, it is taking up the most discussion.
    Unfortunately, the comics comprise the smallest amount of Superman's pop culture presence.

    Again, it doesn't really matter whether the CW shows are niche or not. Everything is niche these days. There are simply too many forms of entertainment out there vying for people's attention for anything to dominate. Very, very few things in pop culture enjoy popularity. Things like the MCU are magical unicorns that only appear once and awhile. They are not normal anymore and I don't expect them to be.

    My larger point is that the more Superman is out there, in many different mediums and with many different interpretations, that's a good thing for the character. I'm happy that Snyder will get to finish his overly dour Superman Trilogy. I'm also happy that the YA audience will get another CW superhero soap opera to watch. I think the Injustice games are a lot of fun and look forward to seeing them push even further into the Multiverse stuff so we get even more versions of Superman in there who aren't evil. I think DC Super-Pets could be great, too. I wish Justice League Action had continued, but it's still out there on YouTube, ranking up new views everyday.

    The more Superman that's out there, the better.

  7. #97
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think we're all slipping into speculation here, as none of us actually know how much money these CW shows are making. However, I think they have to be doing more than breaking even, otherwise they wouldn't keep making more of them. That said, I totally buy that a quirky little oddball like Legends of Tomorrow is only breaking even, though.
    They might break even, but they're a really low investment.

    There are a lot of other reasons for a production beyond just making a profit off the product. Tax reasons, IP protections, assets to sell to streaming services- hell, even just having enough content to look attractive to a streaming service.

  8. #98
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Unfortunately, the comics comprise the smallest amount of Superman's pop culture presence.

    Again, it doesn't really matter whether the CW shows are niche or not. Everything is niche these days. There are simply too many forms of entertainment out there vying for people's attention for anything to dominate. Very, very few things in pop culture enjoy popularity. Things like the MCU are magical unicorns that only appear once and awhile. They are not normal anymore and I don't expect them to be.

    My larger point is that the more Superman is out there, in many different mediums and with many different interpretations, that's a good thing for the character. I'm happy that Snyder will get to finish his overly dour Superman Trilogy. I'm also happy that the YA audience will get another CW superhero soap opera to watch. I think the Injustice games are a lot of fun and look forward to seeing them push even further into the Multiverse stuff so we get even more versions of Superman in there who aren't evil. I think DC Super-Pets could be great, too. I wish Justice League Action had continued, but it's still out there on YouTube, ranking up new views everyday.

    The more Superman that's out there, the better.
    No, quantity is not more important than quality.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    No, quantity is not more important than quality.
    He’s not arguing that, and Supes has already lost the quality argument. How could Superman & Lois possibly “hurt” Superman worse than the DCEU or Injustice? I’m sorry but the reactions from some that this is a bad thing just baffles me. No one is arguing that this will be a TV masterpiece that totally catapults Superman to the top again, but damn Smallville didn’t hurt him any and that was pretty damn cheesy. I’d rather have something portraying Superman in a positive way than nothing which is the status quo right now.

    Would I love a movie that treats him better than Snyder, makes a $1 billion, and scores 90+ on RT? Of course. What I love a Superman video game on par with the Arkham games? Absolutely. But I don’t see either of those happening any time soon, so I’ll take a TV show that isn’t afraid to embrace the Supermythos and portrays Supes as a hero.

  10. #100
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    No, quantity is not more important than quality.
    Do you honestly think anyone here is arguing that the quality doesn't matter?

    Do you honestly think Zack Snyder or Greg Berlanti or anyone involved in all the various Superman projects being produced right now are trying to produce something that isn't of the highest quality they're capable of?

    I'd rather a bunch of different creators are out there trying to create the best Superman stories they can and fail on the off chance that one of them will do something special.

  11. #101
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    He’s not arguing that, and Supes has already lost the quality argument. How could Superman & Lois possibly “hurt” Superman worse than the DCEU or Injustice? I’m sorry but the reactions from some that this is a bad thing just baffles me. No one is arguing that this will be a TV masterpiece that totally catapults Superman to the top again, but damn Smallville didn’t hurt him any and that was pretty damn cheesy. I’d rather have something portraying Superman in a positive way than nothing which is the status quo right now.

    Would I love a movie that treats him better than Snyder, makes a $1 billion, and scores 90+ on RT? Of course. What I love a Superman video game on par with the Arkham games? Absolutely. But I don’t see either of those happening any time soon, so I’ll take a TV show that isn’t afraid to embrace the Supermythos and portrays Supes as a hero.
    I was responding to "the more Superman out there the better", which is something I disagree with hard. Oversaturation is a real thing, and when something becomes associated with a lower quality product it is much harder to rise out of that. After BvS/JL the last thing Superman needs is to be exiled to the CW. He needs a lil quality control, and not just "more Superman = great". The character's reach should belong to more than a niche demographic on network TV ya know?

    I keep seeing SMALLVILLE brought up. I think we're forgetting that SMALLVILLE didn't start out cheap or "cheesy", it was Superman meets Buffy. It was also a WB production, 20 years ago, that went over to the CW after the first few seasons and began its final descent in quality.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 05-27-2020 at 04:50 AM.

  12. #102
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Do you honestly think anyone here is arguing that the quality doesn't matter?

    Do you honestly think Zack Snyder or Greg Berlanti or anyone involved in all the various Superman projects being produced right now are trying to produce something that isn't of the highest quality they're capable of?

    I'd rather a bunch of different creators are out there trying to create the best Superman stories they can and fail on the off chance that one of them will do something special.
    I mean, no I don't think Berlanti Productions is trying to produce something of huge merit. I think they got the rights to use Superman and they're putting something out. It isn't anything more than that. That's fine, too- not everything has to be high art. I'm just here talking about it because Superman is a character I care about.

    I'd also rather a bunch of creators were out there trying their best to put together a Superman joint, but that's not what's happening. All we're getting is a show on the CW. That's the state of Big Blue in popular culture right now.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 05-27-2020 at 05:48 AM.

  13. #103
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    It's sad Superman is falling the past decades while Batman and the rest of the DCU only went up. Several failed movies. Relegated to the small screen. Supporting character to his former supporting character. Not to mention there is a vocal community who thinks Superman is boring and overpowered. Games haven't been kind too. There is no solo Superman game and many pitches have been rejected. While in Injustice, Clark is Hitler and BatGod's punching bag. They made Supergirl side over Batman while Superman gets the most hated and controversial Robin, Damian. The movies and Snyder made Superman toxic. We already have a new Batman movie next year even after the combo failure of BvS and JL. There is also a divide in how people view Superman. Some people want old school Boy Scout, while Snyder fans love Super Jesus. The next Superman movie will be criticized no matter what. Comics have been okay. But most people don't care about comics. The big reason people don't care about Superman is because his greatest stories are in the comic books. Sure, Superman is iconic but Mickey Mouse is iconic too. They aren't seen as cool. The rise of evil Superman like Brightburn and Homelander prove this. People desire realistic flawed heroes. But once you do this to Superman like Snyder, it fails. Because fans can't let go or it betrays the character. My thoughts on the question asked.

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Hate to break it to you. Shakthimaan is a superman ripoff. Those resemblances aren't coincidental.It's like marvel with their countless copies. Superman gets ripped off in asian fiction quite alot.
    Well. Yeah. The similarities are too many to be coincidental. Which is supporting my observation. Kids seem to enjoy Superman more easily then adults do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Yeah! It's listed as DC NATION. They're all kinda fun and worth a watch but the SHAZAM one and the DEADMAN ones really stuck out to me as stellar.

    I haven't seen INTO THE SPIDERVERSE but I know it was a hit, so I can agree that's a good route. I remember thinking the concept seemed way more SUPERMAN than SPIDER-MAN, and that it was a shame Spidey got to it first.

    I think Jimmy Olsen is the way to go.
    I had seen only one Lois Lane. It was cute. Since your post i have seen a couple of Shazam ones. They are worth watching. Watching that kind of makes me pine for Clark Kent Superboy. Wasn't Superboy created so that kids could dig more into Superman as he's young like them? You can't do that with Batman. So, you have Robin.

    That episode with Shazam flying to solve a mathematical problem for the exam, using real trains was fun. I don't remember the exact story or the issue of Superboy but i enjoyed it. Essentially, Clark travels to the past and sees history for real. Maybe Clark Kent Superboy is something which should make a comeback. Maybe only in stories targeted at kids.

    I think Jimmy Olsen could be perfect. And i think the Silver Age Superman could work really well too. Remember, those stories were targeted at eight year old kids. And that was the time Superman was most successful in comics, before Marvel came and changed the game by targeting more older kids and teenagers.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-27-2020 at 07:39 AM.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I think one of the major obstacles Superman faces is that he's become more of an archetype and a symbol than a character. He's basically the personaification of Goodness with a capital G, the generic symbol of truth and justice. Everyone wants to project their ideals and their hopes onto the character...their idea of what Superman should be. Which makes it hard to get people behind any particular version.

    Batman doesn't face that problem. Spider-Man doesn't face that problem. The Avengers don't face that problem. But Superman does.

    Zack Snyder's Superman is "too dark". Donner's Superman is the "real" Superman but he's too cheesy and old-fashioned...ergo, Superman is cheesy and old-fashioned. Superman should be cheesy and old-fashioned. Superman is too cheesy and old-fashioned...he needs to get "darker".

    This is just one example of the kind of cyclical arguments that plague the character...leaving DC/WB damned if they do and damned if they don't.
    Bull to the shit, alot of immature men project their ideals and desires onto batman and spiderman, its called self inserting. Superman more or less is the least projected hero in a nerd fantasy sense. The more a character acts like a exxagerration of male quirks/habits that anyone has experienced/relates but are still idealized figures that create wish fufillment through their narratives are the most idealized characters to fans of a certain fiction, not superman, superman is not a pervert, a cocky douche, a lovable but flawed charmer, nerdy, cynical, impatient, and every teenage habit of playful and confident. The anime protagonist is the perfect example of this. Their the ultimate good and yet somehow the most human and enguaging narrative to self insert into(example Naruto, Saitama, deku(and unforunately mineta) etc). Hell beast boy is more a idealized projection to sexualize with any girl in his series more than fucking robin!

    This crap is why I hate fandoms now, theres a certain influence characters leave in most fans sub consciously to emulate their own desires, which is why i hate batman, a guy who every male wants to want to be and in turn want to do everything as their own projections as him from fucking every women to beating every hero and villain.
    Last edited by SpideyCeo; 05-27-2020 at 07:52 AM.

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