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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Seems like Marvel has a thing for jobbing their most powerful characters these days.
    These days? They've been doing that ever since they had Spider-Man beat up the X-Men.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    You would think villains that live in NYC they would form their own syndicate. I find it amazing that the Punisher has killed so many people but just can't seem to get Kingpin.

    Wait...why doesn't the Kingpin just send Hydo-Man to kill the Punisher? Hydro-Man would finish Punisher off easily.
    Villains tend to not get along very well.

  3. #48
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    These days? They've been doing that ever since they had Spider-Man beat up the X-Men.
    Spidey beat up the X-Men?!?!?!? That's some serious bullshit. When did this happen?
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 07-06-2020 at 11:39 PM.
    " This is why you're the head of S.H.I.E.L.D, Stark. Because you're stronger than anyone. It's not the armor....and you know it. Your here because impossible things happen, and when they do, They call on you to deal with them. You see the angles, Tony. You always have. You see the possible solutions to things that shouldn't be happening." CAROL DANVERS

  4. #49
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Villains tend to not get along very well.
    Criminals have never gotten along but that has never stopped them from forming organized crime families and gangs. Why should the truckloads of villains living in NYC be any different?

    The Kingpin is an anachronism just like the Hell's Kitchen found in those Daredevil books. Yes, Frank Miller is awesome and the writers all loved his Daredevil run, but it's time to let Kingpin go. The idea that this character is wielding any power in current day Marvel is embarrassing.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 07-07-2020 at 12:27 AM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  5. #50
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    Spidey beat up the X-Men?!?!?!? That's some serious bullshit. When did this happen?
    There's been a time or two, but the one people usually refer to is in Secret Wars.

    And really? It's not that bad. Spider-man is a lot faster than any of the X-men and stronger than most of them. In Secret Wars, he basically jumped down, caught them off guard and got in a few good licks, and took off.

  6. #51
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    Spidey beat up the X-Men?!?!?!? That's some serious bullshit. When did this happen?
    Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you...
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  7. #52
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    There's been a time or two, but the one people usually refer to is in Secret Wars.

    And really? It's not that bad. Spider-man is a lot faster than any of the X-men and stronger than most of them. In Secret Wars, he basically jumped down, caught them off guard and got in a few good licks, and took off.
    I was thinking it was against like a newer team or something like that. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you...
    Not hate. Just thinking it was a more powerful version of the team.
    " This is why you're the head of S.H.I.E.L.D, Stark. Because you're stronger than anyone. It's not the armor....and you know it. Your here because impossible things happen, and when they do, They call on you to deal with them. You see the angles, Tony. You always have. You see the possible solutions to things that shouldn't be happening." CAROL DANVERS

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    There's been a time or two, but the one people usually refer to is in Secret Wars.

    And really? It's not that bad. Spider-man is a lot faster than any of the X-men and stronger than most of them. In Secret Wars, he basically jumped down, caught them off guard and got in a few good licks, and took off.
    It is that bad, and it was the start of Marvel playing favourites. As far as I could tell it was pretty much Jim Shooter putting the X-Men (and through them, Claremont) in their place. Spider-Man, iirc, tells Wolverine he's a joke to him and bats him away twice, for starters. Yes, Spider-Man should be able to run rings around Wolverine, but he should also be able to do the same for Captain America, Daredevil, and many of his own rogues gallery. He doesn't though, because it needlessly destroys the threat/credibility of characters. NOT that I'm suggesting that Daredevil, say, should be able to hold his own in a fight with Spider-Man, but I think you should generally avoid putting mismatched characters against each other unless there is a real point to it. The point in this case seemed to be to make Spidey look good at the expense of the X-Men, who had become the new stars of Marvel at the time.

    It of course led to (a) Spider-Man vs Wolverine miniseries rematch where Spidey practically wets himself when Wolverine comes at him (equally awful, but Wolverine was being heavily pimped-out by Marvel by that time and obviously needed his credibility back), and (b) Claremont quickly taking the X-Men from plucky underdogs to swaggering tough-guys who posed about whilst other characters told the reader just how awesome they were. ****ing disaster as far as I'm concerned, but a predictable response. Heroes need credibility to work as power-fantasies, after all.

  9. #54
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    It is that bad, and it was the start of Marvel playing favourites. As far as I could tell it was pretty much Jim Shooter putting the X-Men (and through them, Claremont) in their place. Spider-Man, iirc, tells Wolverine he's a joke to him and bats him away twice, for starters. Yes, Spider-Man should be able to run rings around Wolverine, but he should also be able to do the same for Captain America, Daredevil, and many of his own rogues gallery. He doesn't though, because it needlessly destroys the threat/credibility of characters. NOT that I'm suggesting that Daredevil, say, should be able to hold his own in a fight with Spider-Man, but I think you should generally avoid putting mismatched characters against each other unless there is a real point to it. The point in this case seemed to be to make Spidey look good at the expense of the X-Men, who had become the new stars of Marvel at the time.

    It of course led to (a) Spider-Man vs Wolverine miniseries rematch where Spidey practically wets himself when Wolverine comes at him (equally awful, but Wolverine was being heavily pimped-out by Marvel by that time and obviously needed his credibility back), and (b) Claremont quickly taking the X-Men from plucky underdogs to swaggering tough-guys who posed about whilst other characters told the reader just how awesome they were. ****ing disaster as far as I'm concerned, but a predictable response. Heroes need credibility to work as power-fantasies, after all.
    Spider-Man historically tends to do better against groups than one on one. Have him fight just one opponent, and it's more even. Having him fight 6 and he starts running rings around him. Captain America and Wolverine do better against Spidey one on one than when they're with their repective teams... doesn't exactly make sense, but it's how Spidey is normally writen.

    But I'm in agreement that that the Spider-Man fight with the X-Men in secret wars was okay. He jumped in with the element of surprise, punches several of them, dodged a couple attacks, then ran away without really hurting anyone. Even Xavier recovered from Spider-Mans attack pretty quickly (obviously Spidey was holding back). Everything he did was within his ability to do. He didn't punch out colossus or tank any optic blasts. Yes, it make Spidey look good... but nothing happened which I think we can actually say is outside Spideys actually abilities. So I don't think anyone actually jobbed here.

    Also, Secret Wars 5 does basically have the X-Men do the same thing to the villain army. So Shooter gave the X-Men a bit of spotlight, the same way he did with Spiderman in the book.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    The problem with that scene isn't the fact that it's impossible given the difference in power level. It's the fact Black Panther is put in a situation where he is resorting to physical fighting with the surfer. Black Panther's primary weapon is his mind and his resources. Having him somehow wrestle with the surfer really doesn't amplify what makes him who he is.
    The problem with that logic is that that kind of solution only matters in a situation where Black Panther is much weaker than his opponent.

    A big part of Black Panther (and a lot of other "street-level" characters) is their martial skill, and you're basically telling us that that's completely useless in this scenario. That's why, even if the fight is basically the David dancing around the Goliath, they still have to showcase it.

  11. #56
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    I honestly dont see the big deal especially considering SS acknowledges he could have broken free.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I honestly dont see the big deal especially considering SS acknowledges he could have broken free.
    That's arguably the whole problem.

    It means that there was little reason for him to stay bound other than plot convenience.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    That's arguably the whole problem.

    It means that there was little reason for him to stay bound other than plot convenience.
    My thoughts exactly. Never mind strength and invulnerability, it's like Silver Surfer didn't have the Power Cosmic and couldn't have fried T'Challa on the spot if he wanted to. If anyone was in a highly vulnerable state due to proximity, it was T'Challa. The writer should have been forced to rewrite those panels. It doesn't hurt to put a more credible take on things.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Peak human is still only human. These characters tend to be written in ways that vastly distort what even a peak level human is capable. (Fun exercise: I'm not sure if you follow professional sports, but if you get a chance, go ahead and research some of the top metrics of today's professional athletes. What Marvel defines as "Peak Human" is approximate. For example, at last check the max level for peak human strength was only 800 lbs. on one of the Marvel wiki sites, presumably measured as a dead lift. In the real world, the record for a dead lift is about 1,100 pounds. They're ballpark close in terms of peak effort and exertion.)
    I'm going to correct you here. Ever since the OHOTHMU, strength has been measured by the amount of weight pressed, not lifted. I assure you, nobody alive comes near 800 lbs in any form of press.

    I'll also point you towards Captain America, who has run a mile in just over a minute, and 5 miles in about 6 minutes. On panel. That is speed more than twice as fast as Usain Bolt in the 100 meters maintained over that distance. In gear not designed for maximum speed.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    I'm going to correct you here. Ever since the OHOTHMU, strength has been measured by the amount of weight pressed, not lifted. I assure you, nobody alive comes near 800 lbs in any form of press.

    I'll also point you towards Captain America, who has run a mile in just over a minute, and 5 miles in about 6 minutes. On panel. That is speed more than twice as fast as Usain Bolt in the 100 meters maintained over that distance. In gear not designed for maximum speed.
    Actually, OHOTMU entries vary with respect to strength descriptions. For some entries it indicates "press", while for others it states "lift."

    And, yes, OHOTMU makes a distinction between "Olympic level athlete" and "peak human" level.

    The overarching point here is that however Marvel defines "peak human", it's not synonymous with superhuman. However thin that demarcation is, it's there. And it's there for a reason. Otherwise, Marvel and DC would just come out and establish that characters like Batman and Captain America are superhuman. No one would fault them if they did. But they don't, because it's important to them to perpetuate the nonsensical narrative that ordinary, albeit peak human heroes can unseat gods. Classic themes further juiced up by a hyper suspension of disbelief. It's a tried and true cocktail that bring lovers of street level heroes back time and time again. Can't wait to see Shang Chi knife-hand strike the Uni-Mind, forcing it to explode into all of the Eternals that comprised it. Or has that happened already?

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