Why did many people whine about the Black Panther armbar Surfer thing

[Shadowcat]

It was stupid, but it’s not the most stupid moment I’ve ever read. Like Spider-Man beating Fire-lord, Daredevil & Mephisto/Blackheart, Wolverine regenerating after being atomized. I understand why we have these logic defying moments, I just try not to pay them too much mind, because we’re discussing a man who leads a planet destroying force of nature, dressed all in purple.

[XPac]

It was stupid, but it’s not the most stupid moment I’ve ever read. Like Spider-Man beating Fire-lord, Daredevil & Mephisto/Blackheart, Wolverine regenerating after being atomized. I understand why we have these logic defying moments, I just try not to pay them too much mind, because we’re discussing a man who leads a planet destroying force of nature, dressed all in purple.

It's definaely not the stupidest moment... but I think it probably rubs a lot of people the wrong way more simply because it's another super hero on the receiving end. We're sort of used to super heroes jobbing out super villains even if it means somehow overcoming impossible odds. But when it happens to another hero, a guy plenty of readers would otherwise be rooting for, it's a bigger deal to some at least. If you had BP defeating say Morg with an armbar you'd likely still get complaints... but far less than you would against the Surfer, who has an actual fan base.

[Klaxton]

Peak human is still only human. These characters tend to be written in ways that vastly distort what even a peak level human is capable. (Fun exercise: I'm not sure if you follow professional sports, but if you get a chance, go ahead and research some of the top metrics of today's professional athletes. What Marvel defines as "Peak Human" is approximate. For example, at last check the max level for peak human strength was only 800 lbs. on one of the Marvel wiki sites, presumably measured as a dead lift. In the real world, the record for a dead lift is about 1,100 pounds. They're ballpark close in terms of peak effort and exertion.)

So what does it mean to be peak human? Does it mean that they have more dense bone tissue than someone that is superhuman? No. Well, it only takes about 25 pounds of pressure to break small bones. The hand is nothing but small bones. Punching a human in the face or skull can break the bones in your hand. Peak human or not. Now imagine punching something as dense as the Hulk's artillery shell resistant thick hide. Broken bones in your hand everywhere would be the result. That's true for Cap and Bats.

Further, it only takes somewhere from about 150-180 pounds of pressure to break some of the larger bones in the human body. Peak human or not. So imagine you are the Hulk, somewhere between 1,150 and 1,400 pounds of unfettered fury, further bolstered by musculature that enables you to toss aircraft carriers weighing in excess of 101,000 pounds without breaking a sweat. To say that the Hulk can exert far more than 160 pounds or even 1600 pounds of pressure on the bones of even the most peak of human skeletons is the understatement of the year. A finger tap from the Hulk would cause a peak human's skeletal structure to collapse. That's true for Cap and Bats.

Ahh, if only the Hulk and other OP characters were written to their true capabilities. And if only these annoying peak humans were written like they're only peak human. Sure, some readers would find that a very boring fictional universe, but I would be tickled pink. "This sounds like a job for a true superman," would be the clarion call of the day again.

This line of thought just doesn't work for comics, as even the human street levellers are functionally superhuman, and only that way is them taking on hordes of enemies and crime families justified.
Eg. Daredevil has bullet-timed multiple times, and flipped a limo, but then the writers go overboard, with DD speedblitzing Spider Man to KO and decapitating Ultron with a stick.

However, the street leveller who has most benefited from this is Spider Man, who imo has the largest number of times got better of characters he has no business of doing so, and the writers even emphasize on it, making the more powerful character look bad.
Eg. After the issue where Spidey fights Surfer, Surfer mentions in his solo series that he was battling for his life against Spider Man. As if realistically Spidry could do anything to Surfer that would be fatal.
And then there is the whole not Hulk not Thor could do x thing he keeps saying before doing something difficult, which results in loony fans like here

https://feats-and-respect-thread.fan...evels_of_feats

https://feats-and-respect-thread.fan...Respect_Thread

That's why I enjoy stuff like Marvel Team-Up #27 where Hulk easily catches Spider Man, does even acknowlede him, walks through his attacks like nothing, before oneshotting him when he has had enough

[XPac]

This line of thought just doesn't work for comics, as even the human street levellers are functionally superhuman, and only that way is them taking on hordes of enemies and crime families justified.
Eg. Daredevil has bullet-timed multiple times, and flipped a limo, but then the writers go overboard, with DD speedblitzing Spider Man to KO and decapitating Ultron with a stick.

However, the street leveller who has most benefited from this is Spider Man, who imo has the largest number of times got better of characters he has no business of doing so, and the writers even emphasize on it, making the more powerful character look bad.
Eg. After the issue where Spidey fights Surfer, Surfer mentions in his solo series that he was battling for his life against Spider Man. As if realistically Spidry could do anything to Surfer that would be fatal.
And then there is the whole not Hulk not Thor could do x thing he keeps saying before doing something difficult, which results in loony fans like here

https://feats-and-respect-thread.fan...evels_of_feats

https://feats-and-respect-thread.fan...Respect_Thread

That's why I enjoy stuff like Marvel Team-Up #27 where Hulk easily catches Spider Man, does even acknowlede his,.walks through his attacks like nothing, before oneshotting him when he has had enough

I think Spider-Man arguably has the best uber high feats (proporionate to his abilities), but I think he also also arguably has the worst uber low feats (proportionate to his abilities), so it sort of balances out. On really good days he'll be surprisingly effective against Firelord or be able to take blows from Juggernaut. But on bad days he'll struggle with Daredevil or Kingpin. Due to the sheer volume of feats he has overall (maybe more than any other marvel character), he almost by default has the most good and bad. And you can argue they sort of balance each other out in the end.

[Klaxton]

I think Spider-Man arguably has the best uber high feats (proporionate to his abilities), but I think he also also arguably has the worst uber low feats (proportionate to his abilities), so it sort of balances out. On really good days he'll be surprisingly effective against Firelord or be able to take blows from Juggernaut. But on bad days he'll struggle with Daredevil or Kingpin. Due to the sheer volume of feats he has overall (maybe more than any other marvel character), he almost by default has the most good and bad. And you can argue they sort of balance each other out in the end.

Such bad days are dime a dozen more and more recently. I mean when was the last time he had real trouble with a street leveller? 2010? That's like decade back. The only one I can remember is Kaine, who was always stronger than him anyway. Maybe there is something with Cap somewhere, but Cap is basically a walking PIS machine.
IIRC , the 2015 comic Who Am I: Special had him stomping Ironman zero effort while amnesiac. The truth is that a large no of his fans are so used to him humiliating high tiers that some pitched a fit when he was stomped by an Iron Patriot armor.

[Tony Stark]

Such bad days are dime a dozen more and more recently. I mean when was the last time he had real trouble with a street leveller? 2010? That's like decade back. The only one I can remember is Kaine, who was always stronger than him anyway. Maybe there is something with Cap somewhere, but Cap is basically a walking PIS machine.
IIRC , the 2015 comic Who Am I: Special had him stomping Ironman zero effort while amnesiac. The truth is that a large no of his fans are so used to him humiliating high tiers that some pitched a fit when he was stomped by an Iron Patriot armor.

I'm going to have to check out that Who Am I special. I was unaware of that encounter with Iron Man and Spider-Man.

[Klaxton]

I'm going to have to check out that Who Am I special. I was unaware of that encounter with Iron Man and Spider-Man.

Suprised you didn't see it untill now

[Tony Stark]

Suprised you didn't see it untill now

Nah. I missed this one, but from what you showed me it’s a good thing I did.

[Xero Kaiser]

Mantis (Earth-616)
Abilities
Master Martial Artist: Mantis has extraordinary ability in the martial arts that have been developed and perfected over thousands of years. These fighting methods place particular emphasis on the manipulation of pressure points and nerve endings on the bodies of one's opponents. So, by knowing the right areas of the body to strike, Mantis can stun even a being as powerful as Thor even though she herself has no superhuman strength.

Silver Sablinova (Earth-616)
Strength level
Silver Sable possesses the strength of a normal human woman her age, height, and build who engages in regular intensive exercise and combat. She is shown to be able to jump a dozen feet high, leap in between city buildings, and lift grown men off the ground by the collar and throw them several feet.

I can't stand garbage like this. It just makes it seem like the writers don't understand what the words they're using actually mean.

It's like saying a character doesn't have super speed and then having them beat The Flash in a foot race by utilizing their super speed.

I have no idea why superhero comics struggle with the concept of boundaries so much. If a character has super powers, fine. If they don't, fine. Pick a lane and stay in it.

[XPac]

I can't stand garbage like this. It just makes it seem like the writers don't understand what the words they're using actually mean.

It's like saying a character doesn't have super speed and then having them beat The Flash in a foot race by utilizing their super speed.

I have no idea why superhero comics struggle with the concept of boundaries so much. If a character has super powers, fine. If they don't, fine. Pick a lane and stay in it.

It's almost a somewhat understandable situation I suppose when you're having street level martial artists interact in the same universe as gods. Inevitably they do interact and when it happens, you still need to write functional stories about them. Not that I'm defending it (it drives me nuts too sometimes), but in a world with guys like Batman and Superman being peers I suppose it's almost inevitable.

It's one of the reasons I like the power level of the MCU a bit more than the comics. Guys like Cap and Winter Soldier seem a bit stronger, while guys like Thor and Hulk seem a bit weaker. The gap is smaller to the point where the high and low end characters can more believably interact. You honestly don't need guys walking around with the strength to move planets or whatever... that in the long run always ends having them job out later.

[JudicatorPrime]

I can't stand garbage like this. It just makes it seem like the writers don't understand what the words they're using actually mean.

It's like saying a character doesn't have super speed and then having them beat The Flash in a foot race by utilizing their super speed.

I have no idea why superhero comics struggle with the concept of boundaries so much. If a character has super powers, fine. If they don't, fine. Pick a lane and stay in it.

I totally agree.

If they want to say that Silver Sable or whomever can walk into a death match against three elite forces soldiers and emerge victorious, albeit bloodied, I'm fine with that. But at some point you stop applauding her achievement and you start questioning the true skillset, training and capabilities of her opponents.

Suspended disbelief only covers so much before you start to reject the premise. And like it or not, once that happens, fans of the characters that are getting jobbed stop reaching for their wallets. PIS is just bad business.

No one is going to complain if Silver Sable breaks her hand punching Thanos. But everyone ought to complain if she knocks him out cold, especially after we've seen Thanos laugh off haymakers from the Thing, Thor and other stalwarts who are millions of times stronger than Silver Sable AND equally adept at hand to hand combat. Maybe that sort of thing works in a movie, but in a comic book, no. The cinema immersion effect doesn't translate into comics. The mind is much more engaged when you're reading something as opposed to just watching it.

[Klaxton]

Nah. I missed this one, but from what you showed me it’s a good thing I did.

Spider Man fanboys all over the net still wank him with that. Especially to counter him getting stomped by Iron Patriot armor.

[mace11]

It's one of the reasons I like the power level of the MCU a bit more than the comics. Guys like Cap and Winter Soldier seem a bit stronger, while guys like Thor and Hulk seem a bit weaker. The gap is smaller to the point where the high and low end characters can more believably interact. You honestly don't need guys walking around with the strength to move planets or whatever... that in the long run always ends having them job out later.

Remember this?
Brie Larson's Captain Marvel Is Strong Enough to 'Move Planets'
https://www.cbr.com/captain-marvel-b...-move-planets/

So it looks like we will see her moving planets in the mcu in the future.

[Tony Stark]

Spider Man fanboys all over the net still wank him with that. Especially to counter him getting stomped by Iron Patriot armor.

Lmao. I can see why. They jobbed Tony completely out.

[JudicatorPrime]

So it looks like we will see her moving planets in the mcu in the future.

Which I, for one, am totally fine with, since MCU Carol is billed as exponentially stronger than the others. Just as long as they don't show Captain Marvel getting beaten in an arm wrestling competition with Mantis. Or worse, Rocket Raccoon.

MCU producers and visual effects crew will have to tread a fine line with how they display Carol's strength, though. It's one thing to have Thanos rip a moon out of its orbit using the IG, or Phoenix/Dark Phoenix or Yoda or someone like that doing something similar using telekinesis or the Force. But depicting a character physically pushing a planet using CGI in a convincing manner is going to be extremely difficult. Key word: convincing.