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  1. #16
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Agreed. The next event should feature a major setting of the record straight when it comes to cosmically powered "OP" characters versus their street level compatriots. I'm against hero vs. hero battles, but the street levels have it coming. No more PIS, no deus ex interventions. Just straight facts about what would really happen if Cap, Falcon, Black Widow, Daredevil, Black Panther, Silver Sable, or whomever faced off with Silver Surfer, Sentry, the Hulk, Hyperion, Gladiator, Phoenix, etc. It shouldn't take more than a page or two at most.
    That sounds unbearable.

  2. #17
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    That sounds unbearable.
    I'd actually like to see it one day just to show comic readers exactly what the Surfer can do when written properly.

    I know it's ridiculous to say, but a part of me thinks the Surfer deserves it for all the times he was ridiculously jobbed out the way he was. From thrown bricks to arm bars, it's a wonder the casual fan would anything of him despite possibly the the most powerful super hero. That's the irony of it all... for a character that powerful to be written that weak that often.

    But like his boss Galactus, because he's powerful he's also an easy short cut to making another character look good. So that power in a way works against him.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    It sounds dumb. As much as people complain about strong characters jobbing to weak ones, there's a narrative reason for that. David vs. Goliath is interesting to watch; Goliath flattening David is not.

    Logically Superman could just fly up into space and nuke Batman's dumb ass from space with heat vision, but that doesn't happen because that's a story that'd be over in 2 seconds.

  4. #19
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    It sounds dumb. As much as people complain about strong characters jobbing to weak ones, there's a narrative reason for that. David vs. Goliath is interesting to watch; Goliath flattening David is not.

    Logically Superman could just fly up into space and nuke Batman's dumb ass from space with heat vision, but that doesn't happen because that's a story that'd be over in 2 seconds.
    When you have characters with that HUGE a power difference I agree it's a stretch. And YES guys like Superman and Surfer SHOULD be able to beat guys like Batman or Black Panther in 2 seconds UNLESS they are heavily prepped for it.

    But even taking that into account, there are instances which you can buy and there are instances which you can't. The FF story we're talking about here has both. T'Challa using an arm bar didn't sit well with a lot of people... but T'Challa defeating Surfer later on in the story with Doom Tech for most people worked fine. In the same breath if you're having Batman fight Superman, even though ANY win by Batman is arguably a stretch I think it's fair to say if you have Batman restraining Superman with an arm bar and threatening to break Supermans arm, you're asking for a bit too much from the reader. The story has to at least meet us part of the way.

    As far as a story of Surfer being Goliath and flattening David... I think it actually would be interesting at a one time thing. I'd actually like to see Surfer show what he can do. For people used to seeing Surfer defeated by bricks thrown at his head or arm bars, I think it would give the character some much needed props. People should feel like this is a character most heroes don't want to mess with.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    Eh, like I said, that sounds boring. Like if you wanna write a fight between two characters where the stronger one comes out on top, sure, fine. But the proposal of a story that exists solely to put the street level heroes "in their place" doesn't sound appealing. And in the end, it'd be pointless since regardless of whether or not you have Hyperion humiliate Captain America to prove Cap shouldn't beat him, he'll go back to getting his ass kicked the very next time another writer wants him to job.

    Like someone else said, it comes with the territory when you're you have super strength.

    It's like when Siege had that awesome bit where they pointed out Quicksilver is essentially unbeatable because he should be able to hit his opponent before they can even react. Was it awesome? Yes. Did it stop Quicksilver from jobbing every time subsequent writers needed him taken off the board immediately? Hell no.

  6. #21
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Eh, like I said, that sounds boring. Like if you wanna write a fight between two characters where the stronger one comes out on top, sure, fine. But the proposal of a story that exists solely to put the street level heroes "in their place" doesn't sound appealing. And in the end, it'd be pointless since regardless of whether or not you have Hyperion humiliate Captain America to prove Cap shouldn't beat him, he'll go back to getting his ass kicked the very next time another writer wants him to job.

    Like someone else said, it comes with the territory when you're you have super strength.

    It's like when Siege had that awesome bit where they pointed out Quicksilver is essentially unbeatable because he should be able to hit his opponent before they can even react. Was it awesome? Yes. Did it stop Quicksilver from jobbing every time subsequent writers needed him taken off the board immediately? Hell no.
    True, Surfer probably will be jobbed out again. But having at least one story where he's not jobbed out is better than always getting jobbed out. But I certainly would agree a story shoudln't exist solely to give Surfer a good showing. That should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

    It's not like writers HAVE to use Surfer or Superman in stories against street level guys. If you can't do it well, maybe you shouldn't bother doing it at all. It CAN be done... anyone on any give day can beat anyone else. But it takes some effort to make it work. If you don't wanna put that effort into it, maybe it's not worth it.

    Or in the least if you're going to do it, be okay with getting some complaining from the internet for it.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    It's not even an armbar. It's holding a guy's arm behind his back. Kinda like an arm lock. They're very different. It even makes no sense for T'Challa to be able to move Norrin's arm in that direction because Norrin is way stronger than he is.

    I appreciate making Black Panther looking like a badass like many others but this wasn't a good way to do it.

  8. #23
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    It's not even an armbar. It's holding a guy's arm behind his back. Kinda like an arm lock. They're very different. It even makes no sense for T'Challa to be able to move Norrin's arm in that direction because Norrin is way stronger than he is.

    I appreciate making Black Panther looking like a badass like many others but this wasn't a good way to do it.
    Honestly, I think it was a bad way to try and make T'Challa look good because it essentially became ammuntion to attack the character. If anyone wants to jump on T'Challa for being a Gary Sue or whatever (even though that's not really using the term correctly), this is the go to example. It's everything that haters dislike about the character handed to them on a silver platter.

    It just didn't help anyone in the long run. Not T'Challa, not the Surfer, and not McDUffies FF run. Which is a shame too, since it was an otherwise fun FF run which unfortunately got completely overshadowed by this one thing.

  9. #24
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    That sounds unbearable.
    As unbearable as watching a normal human karate chop the Hulk into unconsciousness? Yeah, if that type of PIS appeals to you, it would be very unbearable. But like I said, the point isn't to entertain alternative realities. It's to set the record straight. One issue is all I ask. No more firing off a flash bang of white light and blinding characters who can see perfectly fine without any issues after staring at the sun all day long. Just one issue to end the stupidity. Then they can go back to the dumbing down of the readership for the next few decades.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    The problem with that scene isn't the fact that it's impossible given the difference in power level. It's the fact Black Panther is put in a situation where he is resorting to physical fighting with the surfer. Black Panther's primary weapon is his mind and his resources. Having him somehow wrestle with the surfer really doesn't amplify what makes him who he is.

  11. #26
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    Hulk vs batman






  12. #27
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    Hulk vs batman
    Last edited by mace11; 05-26-2020 at 03:53 AM.

  13. #28
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    Hulk vs batman





    Batman's tried that trick against Wonder Woman too. I don't think anyone bought that then either. Sometimes I think writers just need to try a little harder, because Batman CAN beat Wonder Woman or Hulk... just not with a freaking kick.

    main-qimg-df98d767d1cd992522c2bbd6d962ae43.jpg

  14. #29

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    I would have loved a Silver Surfer ongoing from Dwayne McDuffie as writer. may he rest in peace.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Batman's tried that trick against Wonder Woman too. I don't think anyone bought that then either. Sometimes I think writers just need to try a little harder, because Batman CAN beat Wonder Woman or Hulk... just not with a freaking kick.

    main-qimg-df98d767d1cd992522c2bbd6d962ae43.jpg
    Yeah, stuff like this is not even funny. Good writing like Morrison having Batman beat the Martians are great and make Batman look cool. These three examples are just making me wonder how much thought the writer was putting into it.

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