Why did many people whine about the Black Panther armbar Surfer thing

[Drops Of Venus]

I can't stand garbage like this. It just makes it seem like the writers don't understand what the words they're using actually mean.

It's like saying a character doesn't have super speed and then having them beat The Flash in a foot race by utilizing their super speed.

I have no idea why superhero comics struggle with the concept of boundaries so much. If a character has super powers, fine. If they don't, fine. Pick a lane and stay in it.

I'm not seeing the problem with Mantis' description. It is given a valid reason as to why she can take on someone physically stronger than her; by manipulating pressure points and nerve endings on her opponents. She basically outsmarts them by knowing her way around their body, not by being stronger. It's not exactly an unheard of concept in fictional fights to have a physically weaker character destabilize a stronger opponent with a special technique.

[Panic]

I'm not seeing the problem with Mantis' description. It is given a valid reason as to why she can take on someone physically stronger than her; by manipulating pressure points and nerve endings on her opponents. She basically outsmarts them by knowing her way around their body, not by being stronger. It's not exactly an unheard of concept in fictional fights to have a physically weaker character destabilize a stronger opponent with a special technique.

Because it's stupid and doesn't make sense. Yes, if the person is simply physically stronger they might be susceptible to pressure-point jabs from a normal human being, but if it's a character like Luke Cage or Wonder Man, who have superhuman bodies that are resistant to gunfire to the extent that it doesn't even hurt them, then someone jabbing their little human fingers in a point on their neck, say, isn't going to do more damage than a bullet. Pressure points aren't like a magic off-switch, you have to apply enough force to compromise the nerve's function, which in a super-human brick will be correspondingly tough. If the Hulk doesn't have parts of his body going numb from a hail of bullets raining down on him from all sides, then a human thumb or finger will have no chance. Even someone like Spider-Man who doesn't have bullet-proof skin should have a body that is substantially tougher in its function than that of someone who can't lift and throw a car.

I think the nerve-point kung fu simply shouldn't work on beings with super-human resistance to injury. I think it's just silly.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Because it's stupid and doesn't make sense. Yes, if the person is simply physically stronger they might be susceptible to pressure-point jabs from a normal human being, but if it's a character like Luke Cage or Wonder Man, who have superhuman bodies that are resistant to gunfire to the extent that it doesn't even hurt them, then someone jabbing their little human fingers in a point on their neck, say, isn't going to do more damage than a bullet. Pressure points aren't like a magic off-switch, you have to apply enough force to compromise the nerve's function, which in a super-human brick will be correspondingly tough. If the Hulk doesn't have parts of his body going numb from a hail of bullets raining down on him from all sides, then a human thumb or finger will have no chance. Even someone like Spider-Man who doesn't have bullet-proof skin should have a body that is substantially tougher in its function than that of someone who can't lift and throw a car.

I think the nerve-point kung fu simply shouldn't work on beings with super-human resistance to injury. I think it's just silly.

They are in comic books.

[Xero Kaiser]

Pressure points aren't like a magic off-switch, you have to apply enough force to compromise the nerve's function, which in a super-human brick will be correspondingly tough.

Thank you. It's silly for the exact same reason Black Panther putting Silver Surfer in an armlock would've been silly. KO'ing/stunning hits and joint locks don't work if you aren't physically strong enough to KO, stun or joint jock your target. Pressure points are no exception.

If they want to have some mystical, Naruto-shenanigans in there to make up the difference then cool. My problems are when the writers insist the the character in question is totally a normal person with normal limitations...and then proceed to have them do things like physically throw people into another solar system.

I've always hated that. What's the point of, "normal" heroes if you're just going to write them as if they're Kryptonians anyway?

It's not exactly an unheard of concept in fictional fights to have a physically weaker character destabilize a stronger opponent with a special technique.

That's true. But underdog victories are the sort of thing that are either really cool, or really eye-rolling. If you have the underdog doing something actually clever, it can be really badass.

But superhero comics have a tendency to either make the normal character suddenly superhuman or the superhuman character suddenly normal. So, for me, they're generally in the eye-rolling category.

[JudicatorPrime]

Because it's stupid and doesn't make sense. Yes, if the person is simply physically stronger they might be susceptible to pressure-point jabs from a normal human being, but if it's a character like Luke Cage or Wonder Man, who have superhuman bodies that are resistant to gunfire to the extent that it doesn't even hurt them, then someone jabbing their little human fingers in a point on their neck, say, isn't going to do more damage than a bullet. Pressure points aren't like a magic off-switch, you have to apply enough force to compromise the nerve's function, which in a super-human brick will be correspondingly tough. If the Hulk doesn't have parts of his body going numb from a hail of bullets raining down on him from all sides, then a human thumb or finger will have no chance. Even someone like Spider-Man who doesn't have bullet-proof skin should have a body that is substantially tougher in its function than that of someone who can't lift and throw a car.

I think the nerve-point kung fu simply shouldn't work on beings with super-human resistance to injury. I think it's just silly.

Well said.

[PCN24454]

Comics are plot-dependent by nature. This is honestly an extremely mild example.

[mace11]

Remember this scene from avengers earth's mightiest heroes?
Captain america fighting the avengers.

Captain America wakes up

[Drops Of Venus]

Because it's stupid and doesn't make sense. Yes, if the person is simply physically stronger they might be susceptible to pressure-point jabs from a normal human being, but if it's a character like Luke Cage or Wonder Man, who have superhuman bodies that are resistant to gunfire to the extent that it doesn't even hurt them, then someone jabbing their little human fingers in a point on their neck, say, isn't going to do more damage than a bullet. Pressure points aren't like a magic off-switch, you have to apply enough force to compromise the nerve's function, which in a super-human brick will be correspondingly tough. If the Hulk doesn't have parts of his body going numb from a hail of bullets raining down on him from all sides, then a human thumb or finger will have no chance. Even someone like Spider-Man who doesn't have bullet-proof skin should have a body that is substantially tougher in its function than that of someone who can't lift and throw a car.

I think the nerve-point kung fu simply shouldn't work on beings with super-human resistance to injury. I think it's just silly.

The science behind how Mantis can manipulate the body of super-human beings makes no more or less sense than the science behind a lot of other things in the Marvel Universe. It's not the first and it won't be the last time something is dictated by plot convenience. So, as a matter of fact, pressure points can be treated as a ''magical off-switch'' if the writers want to. Specially with a character like Mantis who is not a just regular human, but someone who was enhanced by aliens. For all we know, her telepathic/empathetic abilities give her an advantage other characters don't have. If I remember correctly, the movies treated her powers precisely like an on/off-switch; she was able to put Drax to sleep very quickly by just touching him. She woke up Thor from unconsciousness the same way. And of course, she was the one character able to soothe Thanos. And that's movie Mantis, who's nowhere near as powerful and skilled as comics Mantis. People may not like the explanation as to how certain characters get to do certain things, but at least it's there. I think it's better to have some explanation than none at all.

[Panic]

The science behind how Mantis can manipulate the body of super-human beings makes no more or less sense than the science behind a lot of other things in the Marvel Universe. It's not the first and it won't be the last time something is dictated by plot convenience. So, as a matter of fact, pressure points can be treated as a ''magical off-switch'' if the writers want to.

Writers can do anything they want to, that's what this thread is complaining about. But readers will complain about it if it breaks their immersion in the fictional universe. Again, that is what this thread is about.

Specially with a character like Mantis who is not a just regular human, but someone who was enhanced by aliens.

She was just a regular human in the example originally given ("Mantis can stun even a being as powerful as Thor even though she herself has no superhuman strength"), being just a normal human with no physical enhancement, just alien martial arts training. She was taught mastery over her body and to sense the emotions of others, but she had no super-human enhancement until her joining with the Cotati.

For all we know, her telepathic/empathetic abilities give her an advantage other characters don't have. If I remember correctly, the movies treated her powers precisely like an on/off-switch; she was able to put Drax to sleep very quickly by just touching him. She woke up Thor from unconsciousness the same way. And of course, she was the one character able to soothe Thanos. And that's movie Mantis, who's nowhere near as powerful and skilled as comics Mantis.

The MCU Mantis is almost totally different from the comics Mantis, so much so that the comparison is meaningless because they are not linked in any meaningful way. The MCU Mantis is not human, is kind of stupid, and has the ability not only to read people's emotions but to put other people to sleep. The comics Mantis at the time in question was totally human, just given advanced martial arts training. She had no powers. And again, this is what the original complaint was about (" If a character has super powers, fine. If they don't, fine. Pick a lane and stay in it."). So movie Mantis is an alien with actual powers, whilst 70's Marvel Mantis was less powerful because she had no super-human powers.

[kilderkin]

It was ridiculous when it happened and it's still ridiculous

It's far from the only example

The bullets hitting super invulnerable characters is a very valid point, pressure points might exist, but when you can fly through a star, or take surface pressure from a bomb burst

It's just jumping the shark

Whilst I could concede tchalla maybe getting the lock on if surfer wasn't resisting, surfer could at an instant turned intangible, turned off tchallas brain

Just a ridiculous concept within the mythos internal logic

It's like when Thor gets nerve punched unconscious by a much weaker character

We aren't talking about a strong human Vs a weaker one, the difference is between a strong human Vs a body able to withstand the pressure of a nuke

I've ranted enough

[mace11]

By the way from reading her bio Mantis did have telepathic abilities when she was a kid but something else happen when she reached 18.

Mantis was the daughter of Gustav Brandt and Lua Nguyen. While a child, she was trained by the alien Priests of Pama, a sect of the Kree, who believed that she might become the "Celestial Madonna". She excelled in her martial arts studies, which landed her the name "Mantis". Being the protectors of the Cotati, the Priests of Pama enhanced her mind giving her telepathic abilities. On her 18th birthday, she was mindwiped and was given false memories of a childhood as an orphan in Vietnam, in order for her to experience a regular human life, which would be an aid for her to become a Celestial Madonna.

So, by knowing the right areas of the body to strike, Mantis can stun even a being as powerful as Thor even though she herself has no superhuman strength.

Anyway did she have all these powers and abilities below when she did that to thor?

Anyway here is list of Powers and abilities she does have.

Powers

Telepathy
Empathy
Astral Projection
Chlorokinesis
Pyrokinesis
Precognition
Enhanced Durability
Self-Healing

Abilities

Master Martial Artist
Nervous System Control

Power Grid

Intelligence 3
Learned

Strength 3
Peak Human: Able to lift over twice own body weight or up to 800 lbs.

Speed* 2-7
2-Normal
7-Warp Speed: Able to transcend light speed or teleport (instantaneous travel).

Durability* 3-7
3-Enhanced
7-Virtually Indestructible

Energy Projection 3
Short range, short duration, single energy type

Fighting Skills 6
Master of several forms of combat

* Can travel through space to new plant bodies. If killed, she can rebirth herself in a new plant body.

[Panic]

By the way from reading her bio Mantis did have telepathic abilities when she was a kid but something else happen when she reached 18.





Anyway did she have all these powers and abilities below when she did that to thor?

Anyway here is list of Powers and abilities she does have.


Power Grid

No, she didn't have any superhuman powers, just what is listed under 'abilities' (Master Martial Artist,
Nervous System Control).

[mace11]

Old Man Logan Vs. Maestro

Old Man Logan would get one more brawl with a Hulk closer to his age towards the end of his solo series. A version of Maestro that this Logan has confronted in the past, an aged but demented version of the Hulk, arrived in the mainline continuity. He took over a small town and declared himself King. Despite his fading healing factor , Old Man Logan decided to target Maestro and kill him. Things go poorly for Logan initially, with Maestro quickly beating down Logan. As their feud raged on, Logan was almost murdered by the evil version of multiple times in stories by Ed Brisson, Mike Deodato and Ibraim Roberson.
Ultimately though, Logan healed up enough so that he could fully confront Maestro. The final battle was considerably more brutal than any of their earlier skirmishes. Their battle ended with Logan beheading Maestro, while killed the dark version of Hulk. The strain almost killed Logan, who barely healed up good enough to return to his own reality. This means that ultimately, Old Man Logan (barely) has a winning record while against Marvel's Hulks.

Keep this mind.


Maestro

Intelligence
5

Strength*
6/7

Speed*
2/3

Durability*
5/6

Energy Projection
1

Fighting Skills
4

* Lower ratings when weakened by reintegration
Powers and Abilities
Seemingly those of the Bruce Banner of Earth-616 but far greater.
Note- this talking about Maestro is more powerful then savage hulk for example.

James Howlett (Earth-807128)

Intelligence
2

Strength
4

Speed
2

Durability
4

Energy Projection
1

Fighting Skills
7

Powers
Seemingly those of the James Howlett of Earth-616, although his healing factor is working at a reduced rate due to his advanced age. After becoming the Hooded Man, his healing factor was somehow restored to its fullest.

Abilities
Seemingly those of the James Howlett of Earth-616, though he's more proficient.

[mace11]

Old Man Logan Vs. Hulks

[mace11]

Wolverine vs Hulk

Keep this mind.
Hulk

Superhuman Speed: Regardless of his size, Hulk's superhumanly strong legs allow him to run at speeds that are well beyond the natural physical limits of even the finest human athlete. In fact, the Hulk's speed is so relatively high that, while tunneling underground from Subterranea to California, the Avengers feared that the Hulk could fracture the San Andreas fault line in a matter of few hours.In an excellent display of increased velocity, the Hulk easily outperformed an aircraft while on land.Hulk's astronomical speed extends to his jumps, what allowed him to pursue and reach a space missile.

Wolverine

Superhuman Speed: Wolverine is able to move at low level superhuman speeds. He has attacked faster than the eye could follow and even Spider-Man briefly thought Wolverine was faster than he was in their first fight. His combat speed seems more enhanced then anything else, as he has frequently kept up with Spider-Man in combat, and blitzed people before they pull their trigger fingers.