Whatever happened to Doctor Strange's Defenders?

[Panic]

I'm glad the Surfer was never defeated by Toe-Tapping Tommy.

[DrNewGod]

True but imagine being in that world just knowing that team exists, like Strange could just assemble them whenever there’s some big threat. The villain world would be deeply afraid of this team.

That was part of their thing. With a few exceptions, in-universe, nobody knew they existed. To anybody outside the club, they looked like a random collection of freaks that happened to be at the same disaster at the same time.

IMO, the death knell of the classic Defenders cames in three parts.

First, Marvel has not seemed to have a solid grip on who and what Dr. Strange is for years. Without him, there's no real center to the main four.

Second was Bendis selling TPTB on the idea that all Marvel's Major Brand characters should belong to the Avengers. That pushed Dr. Strange into an in-universe limelight that was antithetical to the Defender' low-key nature.

Third was the name being repurposed for Netflix (admittedly, fun) streaming shows. Even more than the various non-core-member teams over the years, that has changed the brand.

[pageturner]

I actually got bored when it was the core 4. As people have said just to powerful.

I did like nighthawk, gargoyle, hellcat, luke cage etc.

I really like the Beast version and I am left wanting more with the Bendis team. That last panel just leaves so much potential on the table.

[XPac]

I actually got bored when it was the core 4. As people have said just to powerful.

I did like nighthawk, gargoyle, hellcat, luke cage etc.

I really like the Beast version and I am left wanting more with the Bendis team. That last panel just leaves so much potential on the table.

I liked the core 4 of the Defenders individually. But I do admit heart and soul of the team IMO was always the secondary guys like Kyle, Val, and Patsy. I can actually put Hulk in there too, but the other core Defenders honestly were just there to help in fights. In Stranges case to give them a base and a status quo.

I did like the Beast version... but by that point in time I think the concept of what the Defenders were as a team was sort of lost. It was just a group of super heroes. I think it needed more of an identity.

They had that with Bendis team to a degree... and part of me wishes they did more with that group post Bendis.

[Riv86672]

In the early 2000s Kurt Busik and Erik Larsen did a Defenders series which featured a very reluctant reunited Dr. Strange, The Hulk, The Silver Surfer, and Namor getting cursed they couldn't get away from each other (which they did because they could NOT stand to be around each other without them getting into a fight) while Namor and Dr. Strange each had their own missions Silver Surfer just wanted to leave and the Hulk just wanted to fight. The other Defenders Hellcat, Valkyrie, and Nighthawk (I think that who it was) trying to keep the main 4 from killing each other while trying to help save the world while Nighthawk dreams of the Defenders being a team on the same level of the Avengers and the main 4 telling the others they want nothing to with them or each other. After about 12 issues or so, Larsen left and the book was re-titled The Order with Dr. Strange, Namor, The Silver Surfer, and the Grey Hulk have taken over the world and it's up to other Defenders to stop them after they mop the floor with the Avengers, the X-Men, and every other superhero on the planet Earth. They somehow break the curse (and also reveals that the Order was mind-controlled) and all of them disband and go there separate ways.

This book was really heavy into ultra obscure Marvel lore and continuity and plays the whole curse binding Strange, Hulk, Surfer, and Namor as a joke and doesn't do the others any favors. Kurt Busik tried with The Order but it went from a weird kind of dark superhero comedy to a standard powerful superheroes taking over the world and these misfits are the only ones who can save them. It's not bad but it's pretty boilerplate fare. The artwork on The Order was good and before that on The Defenders Larsen might be a bit of an acquired taste as an artist but his style did fit the retro-70s feel of the book.

That book started out great (loved the Busiek premise/writing, the art was solid Larsen, and the line up was my fave w. Doc, SS, Hulk, Namor, Nighthawk, Valkyrie, Hellcat) but lost it’s mojo for me sometime after the big four started contemplating a heel turn.

[Oberon]

Wow! Is the Order really about / nearly 20 years ago? I don't think I ever read/finished all of them. Just weren't for me.

I liked that 2nd tier later '70s team most of all. Lots of sentiment and sense of nostalgia. The version with the X persons prior to X factor was not as good but not horrible.

Most of the Defender rehashes seem to focus on the big 4 to the neglect of Nighthawk, Hellcat and Valkyrie. They really were the heart and soul during arguably the Defenders most popular run.

[JudicatorPrime]

True but imagine being in that world just knowing that team exists, like Strange could just assemble them whenever there’s some big threat. The villain world would be deeply afraid of this team.

In theory, that's always the case. Most villains know on any given caper they can be faced with an ad hoc assemblage of heroes that are smarter, more diversely skilled, more powerful, more determined, and in some cases, even more violent than they are. I would not want to be a villain in 616. Marvel needs to relaunch Bring on the Bad Guys as anthology series, so that we can read more in depth stories about the villains... and more often than not, see them successfully win the day, whether it's simple robbery, or mass murder. We all know in the real world evil seems to get the upper hand more often than not.

[Elmo]

In theory, that's always the case. Most villains know on any given caper they can be faced with an ad hoc assemblage of heroes that are smarter, more diversely skilled, more powerful, more determined, and in some cases, even more violent than they are. I would not want to be a villain in 616. Marvel needs to relaunch Bring on the Bad Guys as anthology series, so that we can read more in depth stories about the villains... and more often than not, see them successfully win the day, whether it's simple robbery, or mass murder. We all know in the real world evil seems to get the upper hand more often than not.

Yeah I agree with all this. That’s partially why 616 villains are so lovable

The original four Defenders together could be nigh omnipotent. Any villain in the multiverse should be afraid. That’s why the idea of the team is so fascinating to me. I am a big fan of stories featuring heroes battling threats that are beyond comprehension and human perception. It would be cool if that angle was applied to a Defenders book with those characters. It makes the name very literal too, who better to be “defenders” of our reality than four of the most powerful Marvel characters ever?

[XPac]

In theory, that's always the case. Most villains know on any given caper they can be faced with an ad hoc assemblage of heroes that are smarter, more diversely skilled, more powerful, more determined, and in some cases, even more violent than they are. I would not want to be a villain in 616. Marvel needs to relaunch Bring on the Bad Guys as anthology series, so that we can read more in depth stories about the villains... and more often than not, see them successfully win the day, whether it's simple robbery, or mass murder. We all know in the real world evil seems to get the upper hand more often than not.

It's really amazing so many criminals operate in New York. The odds of suddenly facing an army of super heroes at any given moment is frightenly high. For the bulk of marvels history you had the Avengers, Defenders, X-Men and Fantastic Four operating in the same city. I wouldn't commit a crime within a thousand miles of NY if I lived in the MU. I'd freaking move to LA.

But I agree villains need more love. The reason people actually give a dam about Magneto, Doom and Thanos is because they actually WIN from time to time. They have legit credibility. We need more villains like that, and in order for that to happen they need to win more often. Obviously heroes almost always have to win in the end... but a few loses leading up to that point won't hurt. I think a big part of the reason we got so many hero vs hero events is because apart from Doom or Thanos, villains stopped being a big deal. That needs to be reversed.

[Elmo]

It's really amazing so many criminals operate in New York. The odds of suddenly facing an army of super heroes at any given moment is frightenly high. For the bulk of marvels history you had the Avengers, Defenders, X-Men and Fantastic Four operating in the same city. I wouldn't commit a crime within a thousand miles of NY if I lived in the MU. I'd freaking move to LA.

But I agree villains need more love. The reason people actually give a dam about Magneto, Doom and Thanos is because they actually WIN from time to time. They have legit credibility. We need more villains like that, and in order for that to happen they need to win more often. Obviously heroes almost always have to win in the end... but a few loses leading up to that point won't hurt. I think a big part of the reason we got so many hero vs hero events is because apart from Doom or Thanos, villains stopped being a big deal. That needs to be reversed.

well I think a lot of what makes a great villain is giving them clear motivations that readers can identify with. the three you mentioned have distinct motivations that make them compelling characters. Magneto in how he resembles a Malcolm X figure fighting for equality, and who has the same ultimate goal as his hero counterpart Professor X but they have differing opinions on execution. Thanos is unique in that he is driven by love, after losing everything, Death is the only person he considers a companion; it is almost personal in a way because Thanos represents the darker aspect of the human soul, the parts of us that are self serving and self destructing, obsessive and twisted. Doom, where do you even begin. he's so unabashed and exudes charisma and confidence, that no matter what he says it is taken seriously. Doom can either be a nefarious badass or a charming moustache twirler and he fits, he is in many respects the ultimate villain... but not downright evil.

these characters can win or lose any number of times, but what matters the most to me is that their motivations and decisions reflect their character and make sense. even the more predictable backstories and motives can work, if they can be well defined and explored then you have a great villain.

[Hypestyle]

There needs to be a revival, with Dr. Voodoo involved if Strange isn't available.

[pageturner]

It's really amazing so many criminals operate in New York. The odds of suddenly facing an army of super heroes at any given moment is frightenly high. For the bulk of marvels history you had the Avengers, Defenders, X-Men and Fantastic Four operating in the same city. I wouldn't commit a crime within a thousand miles of NY if I lived in the MU. I'd freaking move to LA.

But I agree villains need more love. The reason people actually give a dam about Magneto, Doom and Thanos is because they actually WIN from time to time. They have legit credibility. We need more villains like that, and in order for that to happen they need to win more often. Obviously heroes almost always have to win in the end... but a few loses leading up to that point won't hurt. I think a big part of the reason we got so many hero vs hero events is because apart from Doom or Thanos, villains stopped being a big deal. That needs to be reversed.

The great villians do win a little, Red Skull, Loki, Thanos and of course Doom do get their small victories before their over all loses. Even Norman has had moments.

To the other point doesnt it seem like Chicago, Philly, and Boston to name a few are just sitting there with money in their banks waiting to be rob.

[ChrisIII]

Seems like every few years there's some form of reunion of the classic team or totally new takes of course but it never seems to last quite long.

[XPac]

Seems like every few years there's some form of reunion of the classic team or totally new takes of course but it never seems to last quite long.

I think it's sort of hard for the classic team to stay together, because it's almost a part of the narrative that these guys really don't WANT to be around each other. It can be a fun one off, but that's about it.

Though I do think the second tier Defenders are a different story. Kyle, Patsy, and Val became a family of sort in the initial run at least. I'd honest want to see a Defenders return more for them than the core 4 (who mostly are associated with the Avengers anyways).

[ChrisIII]

I think Busiek used them a bit in his run-especially with the Order when they had to stop the Big four.