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  1. #61
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Schumacher Batman is a masterpiece of unintentional comedy. I love Batman & Robin.
    I would say Batman Forever was the most disappointing one. Just such a step down from Keaton, Nicholson, Pfeiffer, and DeVito, By the time Batman & Robin rolled around I expected it to be crap.
    And at least Clooney and O'Donnell looked like they were having fun. Kilmer was so stiff.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Everywhere you go there's always someone who's mad about the MCU being loved by many and can't discern their subjective opinion from objective fact.

    That being said, Justice League being number one isn't fair. That's Batman v Superman.

  3. #63
    Spectacular Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Everywhere you go there's always someone who's mad about the MCU being loved by many and can't discern their subjective opinion from objective fact.
    .
    Who falls under the many of the lots. Disney does have good PR. We saw how they used their PR with Captain Marvel and Spiderman.

    Subjective are fans enduring love , they will defend anything about their love to the end of the earth.

    Objective facts are more of evidential proof that something is wrong. This is where the many becomes flexible, many directors don't like MCU and they use objective facts to explain their dislike. which usually turns out to be reasonable to agree with than the subjective facts of fans.

    That being said, Justice League being number one isn't fair. That's Batman v Superman
    Objectively Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron are bigger disappointments.

    Batman v superman criticism that the movie never had jokes or things were so grim is not the biggest disappointments of all. The Snyder cut release is now the proof we needed.

    Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron are films that were such a big disappointment people pretend they never happened. The directors of those films don't have fond memories of their time on it unlike Snyder who now to an extent is proven right with the JL CUT that the insane negative reaction to batman v superman was more about superficial fear and maybe jealousy.
    Last edited by Castle; 06-03-2020 at 06:55 AM.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Oh god, Blade 3. Why is it always the second sequel where the studio gets too hands on and they turn base metal into shit?

    As Man Of Steel, while the announcement that Snyder would be doing it was disappointing, the actual end product went exactly as well as expected, so not exactly a disappointment in the sense of living up to expectation. Same situation as with the Hellboy reboot.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Who falls under the many of the lots. Disney does have good PR. We saw how they used their PR with Captain Marvel and Spiderman.

    Subjective facts are fans enduring love , they will defend anything about their love to the end of the earth.

    Objective facts are more of evidential proof that something is wrong. This is where the many becomes flexible, many directors don't like MCU and they use objective facts to explain their dislike. which usually turns out to be reasonable to agree with than the subjective facts of fans.



    Objectively Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron are bigger disappointments.

    Batman v superman criticism that the movie never had jokes or things were so grim is not the biggest disappointments of all. The Snyder cut release is now the proof we needed.

    Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron are films that were such a big disappointment people pretend they never happened. The directors of those films don't have fond memories of their time on it unlike Snyder who now to an extent is proven right with the JL CUT that the insane negative reaction to batman v superman was more about superficial fear and maybe jealousy.
    One more time: Please stop selling your opinion as fact. Or at least try to use words like Objectively in the correct way.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Batman v superman criticism that the movie never had jokes or things were so grim is not the biggest disappointments of all. The Snyder cut release is now the proof we needed.
    Right, Batman V Superman wasn't a disappointment because it was grim or lacked jokes, it was a disappointment because it was boring

  7. #67
    Spectacular Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thezmage View Post
    Right, Batman V Superman wasn't a disappointment because it was grim or lacked jokes, it was a disappointment because it was boring

    Boring compared to what other superhero films. I cannot use this against BvS to call it a disappointment.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Boring compared to what other superhero films. I cannot use this against BvS to call it a disappointment.
    Man of Steel set the expectation for what BvS was going to be. BvS failed to meet that expectation.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thezmage View Post
    Man of Steel set the expectation for what BvS was going to be. BvS failed to meet that expectation.
    I would say that’s accurate; MOS had a nuanced pace and a simple and clear focus. That focus and pace are what made MOS work better, even if you disagreed with its interpretations of the character and his world. BvS kind of got lost in a bunch of competing ideas and interpretations that undercut each other.

    I still woundn’t have it as my personal list, though. The way I feel, BvS is more fo a misfire than, say a collection of just horrendously stupid ideas like Catwoman.
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  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I think BvS is a big disappointment for me because I was incredibly hyped to finally see my three favorite superheroes on the big screen together, and I really liked MoS at the time and defended it from the detractors.

    I tried to convince myself to love it for a while especially after the release shitstorm and I can respect some of the individual intents and scenes, but as a whole it was a mess that is trying to do too much. The serious tone isn't a problem in itself, just that having such a serious tone in a film that it was like a funeral being let out afterwards (with kids in Superman shirts crying) to launch a film franchise was a baffling choice. Like save that for a few more films in. The defense of the film that people just don't like the new interpretations and need to let go of their preconceived notions, while the film itself is banking on the built-in history and love of these characters to sell itself and get people drawn in while not doing the best job of making people care about THESE versions, makes the whole thing confused. After back to back disappointments with this (director's cut didn't make things too much better), Suicide Squad, and JL and learning the original 5 film arc, I've turned on it completely.

  11. #71
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think BvS is a big disappointment for me because I was incredibly hyped to finally see my three favorite superheroes on the big screen together, and I really liked MoS at the time and defended it from the detractors.

    I tried to convince myself to love it for a while especially after the release shitstorm and I can respect some of the individual intents and scenes, but as a whole it was a mess that is trying to do too much. The serious tone isn't a problem in itself, just that having such a serious tone in a film that it was like a funeral being let out afterwards (with kids in Superman shirts crying) to launch a film franchise was a baffling choice. Like save that for a few more films in. The defense of the film that people just don't like the new interpretations and need to let go of their preconceived notions, while the film itself is banking on the built-in history and love of these characters to sell itself and get people drawn in while not doing the best job of making people care about THESE versions, makes the whole thing confused. After back to back disappointments with this (director's cut didn't make things too much better), Suicide Squad, and JL and learning the original 5 film arc, I've turned on it completely.
    Exactly. Often times I try to rewatch these movies from the perspective of a casual viewer and there's a lot about BvS that simply doesn't work when you look at it that way from my rewatch just yesterday. Batfleck is a very good example of this, because the film starts with him being a seasoned vigilante (even though the script seems to be confused at times regarding if he is a new development or not). A fan of Batman or of the comics is meant to watch the film with knowing or having preconceived notions regarding who Batman typically is in the comics and then purposely decontructs that idea, given you a Batman that's different and the film emphasises that he is different (from Bruce's dialogue with Alfred).

    Imagine watching the Knightmare sequence as someone who's not familiar with the source material. That scene just comes out of nowhere and it's never even explained in the film. You'd be utterly confused as to what it means or what just happened. It's so easy to think a movie like that is awesome when it's solely catering to you and when you're in an echo chamber like this forum and other ones full of people that know the source material. But when you get outside that a film like BvS is extremely impersonal and puzzling.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Objectively Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron are bigger disappointments.
    I wouldn't say 'objectively,' 'cause I can't speak for everyone but I would agree that they were big disappointments *to me*, subjectively, because *I* expected a lot more from them.

    Iron Man 3 was a complete tonal shift from Iron Mans 1 and 2, and it was jarring to me. (Plus there was some weird dissonance in the ending. The director tried to write an 'end' to Tony's journey, blowing up all his armors and setting him up to walk off in the sunset, when we all knew he had three more movies to go, and would be suiting up literally within 5 minutes of the end of this movie. Plus one of the armors he ordered remote detonated was being worn by Rhodey and carrying the vice-president to safety, so, uh, oops....) As a 50-something fan of the comics who was well aware of who the Mandarin should be, and that the movies are not the comics (Vietnam is not Afghanistan. I figured it out years ago.), I considered the Mandarin twist a delightful surprise *for me* since I already knew all about him, and so this was a fun twist. Something new. (I understand lots of twenty-somethings who weren't alive back when the Mandarin was last relevant in the comics, in the eighties, and only knew about him from reading the internet were pissed that their hard-Googled knowledge wasn't relevant, but whatever.)

    Age of Ultron was just disappointing, especially after how well Avengers 1 came together. Yet another big fight with a horde of faceless CGI mooks as the climax was a bit repetitive. It was okay the first time. But not a well to go to over and over, IMO. And telegraphing a possible death for deadly-dull Hawkeye and then killing the much more fun Quicksilver was just mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron are films that were such a big disappointment people pretend they never happened. The directors of those films don't have fond memories of their time on it unlike Snyder who now to an extent is proven right with the JL CUT that the insane negative reaction to batman v superman was more about superficial fear and maybe jealousy.
    Ha. Sure. Everyone claimed that JL was an underappreciated masterpiece and we were just philistines for not recognizing it's genius. Now suddenly it's crap, because the studio changed it, and the secret Snyder cut is the actual genius that we just didn't get to see. And it will get released, and whether or not it is awesome or awful or just slightly different, it will be the second coming of 'genius that you philistines don't appreciate' and I'll be all 'sure, Jan, whatever.'

    Like what you like. Just don't come at me for not liking it.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Ha. Sure. Everyone claimed that JL was an underappreciated masterpiece and we were just philistines for not recognizing it's genius. Now suddenly it's crap, because the studio changed it, and the secret Snyder cut is the actual genius that we just didn't get to see. And it will get released, and whether or not it is awesome or awful or just slightly different, it will be the second coming of 'genius that you philistines don't appreciate' and I'll be all 'sure, Jan, whatever.'

    Like what you like. Just don't come at me for not liking it.
    My experience with Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and Justice League, and the fan reaction to them, was kind of like this:

    Man of Steel was really good, and most fans seemed to like it. A lot of people hated it, and they hated it pretty vocally, but the reception seemed pretty even with people who liked it.

    Batman v Superman, I wasn't sure about at first, but the more I watched it, the more I liked it. The Ultimate Edition definitely helped, and I haven't seen the theatrical cut since it was in theaters. The entire internet descended upon this movie like a pack of harpies, crying for blood with shrieks of "MARTHA! WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?" But despite all that vocal hate, and the undeniable fact that Batman v Superman was a joke to many people, a relatively small group of viewers loved it, and made strong arguments in its favor. It came to be one of my favorite super-hero movies. As time went by, the vast hordes of haters stopped caring, and went on to hating the best Star Wars movie instead, and then other movies in their turn. Those core diehard fans who hated Batman v Superman, still hated it, but it was no longer such a passion. They rarely brought it up. By contrast, those who love Batman v Superman love it more enthusiastically than ever, posting about it on social media, and discussing it in depth on their discord servers, their subreddits, their podcasts. Because of that undying love for the movie, I think it can quite reasonably called a "cult classic" at this point.

    Justice League was the wild one. I loved Justice League from the first moment I saw it. I could tell it was a little bit of a mess if I went in to look at it closely - there's far too little runtime to effectively balance six super-heroes, plus a villain, Lois, Alfred, Martha, Henry, and Silas. Two hours!? Cyborg and Aquaman hardly got anything at all, and Wonder Woman's arc was cut far too short as well. However, what it did with those two hours was largely tailored for my taste!

    Flash is very likable and relatable, Aquaman carries the torch of Superman's passion for social justice, Wonder Woman's arc of needing to step up and become the leader was great in concept, if too truncated by the runtime to be as detailed as I wanted. Best of all, Batman had an open humanity that I love to see in the character, as though his harrowing experience of BvS had taken away much of his self-righteous blindness- though not all. He still has a strong personality, but he's also much more human than he's been in a long time, and he seems to know it. His emotional vulnerability makes him a little weaker, but it's something he needs, and he still manages to resurrect Superman, unite the League, and do some good. Also, I like that he's not able to completely dominate in fight scenes? I've always liked Batman's physical vulnerability, which is rarely shown much in JL stories in general. This was a true return to form for Batman! And as for Superman, well he was maybe the best part. Showing off the kind of charm that Henry Cavill was always capable of, but which always had to be used sparingly in the previous stories, Superman is now more confident than ever with a team at his side, and he shows that confidence with the kind of Jerry Siegel style quips I'm sure he had to have used all the time before the Nairomi incident in BvS hurt his assurance so badly. He's wonderful, for the first time in a very long time, giving us a Superman with a charm to rival Chris Reeve.

    I felt the need to go into that much detail for Justice League, when I didn't for Man of Steel, and Batman v Superman, because I never see anyone else talk glowingly about JL. I figure if I say "I loved Man of Steel, I loved BvS," you probably know what I loved about them from other people, even if you don't agree with me. But the third, people seemed to like it at first, sometimes. But if they did, they used the opportunity of praising it to diss BvS. There was almost a feeling of "Make Superman Great Again" to some of these Superman fans, and it made me uncomfortable. Rather than seeing JL's Superman as a culmination and an extension of the previous two movies, they saw him as a rejection of the other two.

    Even more heartbreaking was the fact that among those who had loved and defended BvS with me all that time, they hated Justice League. They saw my socially awkward Barry as annoying, my beloved more self-aware Batman as a fountain of weakness worthy only of derision, and my more confident Superman as, sure enough, a rejection of what had come before. To them, the movie had the same flaws I saw, but the bits I loved, were also seen as flaws. It felt like a betrayal. From a community of BvS and MoS fans who talked about and loved the movie, there was suddenly nothing, for the third movie in the series.

    And then, as with the haters of BvS, talk of any kind about JL seemed to dry up. People who hated it, stopped talking about it, except to make the occasional derisive joke. People who liked it, didn't like it with the same enthusiasm of the people who love BvS, perhaps because some of it was born of spite for BvS too. Either way, I also stopped talking about Justice League, because there was nobody to talk with. I never heard anyone say that the theatrical cut of Justice League was great, except for myself, and I still think so.

    Now we're getting Zack Snyder's Justice League, and the "people who love BvS" are hyped, including me! From an artistic standpoint, what happened to Zack Snyder was a disgrace, and regardless of how much I liked it, it's absolutely unfair to hire somebody else to turn an artist's work into a totally different one.

    But... I still love the theatrical cut, and I bet I always will. When the Snyder Cut comes out next year, I have a bad feeling I'm going to be stuck between a crowd of fans just endlessly dunking on the theatrical cut again - and a loud group of haters in the same vein that BvS got, crying for blood with calls of "MARTHA!" I'm not looking forward to it, even though I'm looking forward to seeing Zack Snyder's Justice League itself. Alsooooo, I'm pretty worried that a lot of the things I liked about the theatrical JL will be just plain gone. I'll be pretty upset if we get a lot of Evil Superman. I've just always disliked that.

    As for Iron Man 3 and Age of Ultron - I didn't love IM3 but I liked the Mandarin, and I think Age of Ultron is really underrated, but I think they're both in that period where my passion for Marvel movies started to die down a little bit.
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  14. #74
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Spawn doesn't belong there and I think Hulk is underrated (I know i'm in the minority on that one.)
    Last edited by 9th.; 06-04-2020 at 01:26 PM.
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  15. #75
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Also both IM 2 and Dark World should be up there
    Reading list: Far Sector (DC), Marauders (Marvel), X-Force (Marvel), X-Men (Marvel), Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Venom (Marvel), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Killadelphia (Image), Bitter Root (Image), Black Hammer: Age of Doom (Darkhorse)

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