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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Every character has moved on to some degree from what their creator has intended. Not everything Marston made was worth keeping and his views on gender have aged somewhat poorly in the modern day. Marston's views don't challenge gender norms, if anything they reinforce them.

    This argument is little different from how people accuse game companies of "demonizing femininity" every time they give their female characters more modest designs.
    I think you're doing both Marston and feminist theory a disservice here. The response to the outdated elements—and I readily admit that they are many—in Marston's Wonder Woman shouldn't be to negate his vision, but to critique and improve it. Just as later feminist theorists have done with the early feminist theory.

    I also think you're missing that both the physical depictions of women and their role in plots in both comics and video games has been under constant scrutiny by feminists for a long time. I'm real curious on who those "people" are who you talk about in your last paragraph.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Do people seriously think getting rid of the sword will stop writers from lowballing Diana's feats and powers? They were doing this long before the sword was a regular part of her arsenal.
    Not directly, no. But I think writers who emphasis on the sword are also writers who would deemphasise Diana's other characteristics and powers.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Do people seriously think getting rid of the sword will stop writers from lowballing Diana's feats and powers? They were doing this long before the sword was a regular part of her arsenal.
    The decrease in power and skills started when the sword became a regular in 2011. That's also when we started seeing portrayals of her, acting like an angry warrior woman far more often than ever before.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think you're doing both Marston and feminist theory a disservice here. The response to the outdated elements—and I readily admit that they are many—in Marston's Wonder Woman shouldn't be to negate his vision, but to critique and improve it. Just as later feminist theorists have done with the early feminist theory.
    I'm not sure if there is any value in doing this within the story itself other than highlighting how different Wonder Woman now is from how she was originally. I get doing an essay or article on the topic using the story itself but as a story I find it doesn't have much need. Or maybe I've just seen too many poor instances of it so I'm cynical. All in all, you're better keeping the things Marston did that actually worked and leaving out what didn't. Same as any other character.


    I also think you're missing that both the physical depictions of women and their role in plots in both comics and video games has been under constant scrutiny by feminists for a long time. I'm real curious on who those "people" are who you talk about in your last paragraph.
    I wasn't talking about feminists when I said that. I was talking about a certain movement that freaks out over female characters not being sexy enough. See the controversies about the Lara Croft reboot for a relatively recent example.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-06-2020 at 02:31 AM.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm not sure if there is any value in doing this within the story itself other than highlighting how different Wonder Woman now is from how she was originally. I get doing an essay or article on the topic using the story itself but as a story I find it doesn't have much need. Or maybe I've just seen too many poor instances of it so I'm cynical.
    I might have done a bit of misdirecting here with earlier choice of words.

    What I wish to see is using some of Marston's themes and possibly scenarios, and revisit them with our modern-day knowledge and values. Not necessarily writing a story that directly brings up (say) Marston's racism to debunk it, but a modern Wonder Woman story that e.g. looks at the intersection between feminism and racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I wasn't talking about feminists when I said that. I was talking about a certain movement that freaks out over female characters not being sexy enough. See the controversies about the Lara Croft reboot for a relatively recent example.
    Ah, what I thought. But who cares about what they say about Wonder Woman? Toss them aside for the troglodytes they are.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Do people seriously think getting rid of the sword will stop writers from lowballing Diana's feats and powers? They were doing this long before the sword was a regular part of her arsenal.
    No, but it gives them a little less ammo to use. I don't see how it helps the situation

  7. #52
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Do people seriously think getting rid of the sword will stop writers from lowballing Diana's feats and powers? They were doing this long before the sword was a regular part of her arsenal.
    Has the addition of the sword seem to improve the depiction of Diana's feats and powers?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Has the addition of the sword seem to improve the depiction of Diana's feats and powers?
    No but as I said, there is no guarantee removing it will help. DC was doing this long before the sword became associated with her.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    No, but it gives them a little less ammo to use. I don't see how it helps the situation
    It, by itself, is not hurting it imo.

    And one more thing; just because the sword is seen as a phallic symbol (wasn't this a claim by Sigmund Freud whose theories have largely been debunked?) it doesn't have to be. If the WW comic can reclaim the Amazons from a sexist myth to an empowering feminist one, why does the sword have to be only associated with masculinity?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-07-2020 at 02:12 AM.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It, by itself, is not hurting it imo.

    And one more thing; just because the sword is seen as a phallic symbol (wasn't this a claim by Sigmund Freud whose theories have largely been debunked?) it doesn't have to be. If the WW comic can reclaim the Amazons from a sexist myth to an empowering feminist one, why does the sword have to be only associated with masculinity?
    There's no guarantee removing it will help, but there's no guarantee of anything though. As it stands, it's very rarely served any serious story purpose, so what do we gain by keeping it outside of encounters with Doomsday (who shouldn't be appearing that much). There have been very few stories where the presence of the sword is necessary. At least when Batman gets a mecha suit on occasion, there is an in-story reason for it (often a stupid one, but it's there).

    Even going back to the Golden Age, Hippolyta and the Amazons used swords, so it's not like the WW verse even under Marston's control said women can't ever use swords. But again, the intent was to create a powerful hero who relies less on the traditional man made weapons of war overseen by Mars, and uses non-traditional tools and still comes out on top. We don't have a shortage of swords being used by heroic figures in fiction, I'd rather have the limited decompressed page space we have be used to showcase the more unique aspects of Wonder Woman.

  10. #55
    Fantastic Member wonder39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    There's no guarantee removing it will help, but there's no guarantee of anything though. As it stands, it's very rarely served any serious story purpose, so what do we gain by keeping it outside of encounters with Doomsday (who shouldn't be appearing that much). There have been very few stories where the presence of the sword is necessary. At least when Batman gets a mecha suit on occasion, there is an in-story reason for it (often a stupid one, but it's there).

    Even going back to the Golden Age, Hippolyta and the Amazons used swords, so it's not like the WW verse even under Marston's control said women can't ever use swords. But again, the intent was to create a powerful hero who relies less on the traditional man made weapons of war overseen by Mars, and uses non-traditional tools and still comes out on top. We don't have a shortage of swords being used by heroic figures in fiction, I'd rather have the limited decompressed page space we have be used to showcase the more unique aspects of Wonder Woman.
    This. 100%

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