Page 1 of 18 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 264
  1. #1
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    482

    Default Is Peter Parker truly a loser compared to other heroes?

    I love spidey one of the best heroes in the world, but compared to supes, batman, captain america, ironman and wolverine, he falls short of being a mainly idolized man fantasy, and to much of a nerdy torture porn type. I think thats the problem spiderman, he has creators and writers who just wont develop him into any sucessful male empowerment who looked up to and always somehow failing and looking weak. Meanwhile, heroes like superman or captain america are the lynchpins of respect yet mature masculinity and ironman and wolverine are the shallow desires of masculinity and respect(especially to women) and i feel thats what makes them better heroes than spiderman, they fufill expectation for their target audience most of the time while peter has to be written as a neurotic or ooc loser as a part of his teenage/young adult appeal but ends up hurting his image as a character who mostly has writers screeing him over for some reason relating to manchild habits.

    So who agrees, the peter parker concept is mostly undermined intentionally out of sheer contempt of the character to me when he deserves to be treated like one of the greatest heroes. Even other characters like spiderman are done better on other mediums because at least they keep the characters entertaining and desirable to the reader via finding some way to root for his struggles without whining or being a crybaby via angst. Like Dick Greyson or Beast Boy. Or hell even Naruto without the sasuke angst.

  2. #2
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    276

    Default

    I don't agree with any of this.

    I can't think of a superhero that embodies male empowerment more than Spider-Man. How many other male heroes are as emotional as Spider-Man while still being cool? How many other male heroes can be badass without being aggressive? Who else is as good with kids as Peter in JMS' run without it coming off emasculating?

    Every male hero prior to Spider-Man was a stereotypical alpha male. Spider-Man was the James Dean of superheroes. He was the first to challenge notions about masculinity. That is very empowering. To turn him into a "male fantasy like Wolverine" is to disempower any man who is not Flash Thompson.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-26-2020 at 08:51 PM.

  3. #3
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    661

    Default

    [QUOTE=SpideyCeo;4986127]I love spidey one of the best heroes in the world, but compared to supes, batman, captain america, ironman and wolverine, he falls short of being a mainly idolized man fantasy, and to much of a nerdy torture porn type. I think thats the problem spiderman, he has creators and writers who just wont develop him into any sucessful male empowerment who looked up to and always somehow failing and looking weak. Meanwhile, heroes like superman or captain america are the lynchpins of respect yet mature masculinity and ironman and wolverine are the shallow desires of masculinity and respect(especially to women) and i feel thats what makes them better heroes than spiderman, they fufill expectation for their target audience most of the time while peter has to be written as a neurotic or ooc loser as a part of his teenage/young adult appeal but ends up hurting his image as a character who mostly has writers screeing him over for some reason relating to manchild habits.

    So who agrees, the peter parker concept is mostly undermined intentionally out of sheer contempt of the character to me when he deserves to be treated like one of the greatest heroes. Even other characters like spiderman are done better on other mediums because at least they keep the characters entertaining and desirable to the reader via finding some way to root for his struggles without whining or being a crybaby via angst. Like Dick Greyson or Beast Boy. Or hell even Naruto without the sasuke angst.[/QUOTE
    I do not agree with this. Why? 1: Think of all the hot women Peter was with. MJ, Felicia and Gwen and that is just a start. 2: Other heroes have their issues as well. Alcoholism ( Iron Man) being just one example.

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member Haquim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    I love spidey one of the best heroes in the world, but compared to supes, batman, captain america, ironman and wolverine, he falls short of being a mainly idolized man fantasy, and to much of a nerdy torture porn type. I think thats the problem spiderman, he has creators and writers who just wont develop him into any sucessful male empowerment who looked up to and always somehow failing and looking weak. Meanwhile, heroes like superman or captain america are the lynchpins of respect yet mature masculinity and ironman and wolverine are the shallow desires of masculinity and respect(especially to women) and i feel thats what makes them better heroes than spiderman, they fufill expectation for their target audience most of the time while peter has to be written as a neurotic or ooc loser as a part of his teenage/young adult appeal but ends up hurting his image as a character who mostly has writers screeing him over for some reason relating to manchild habits.

    So who agrees, the peter parker concept is mostly undermined intentionally out of sheer contempt of the character to me when he deserves to be treated like one of the greatest heroes. Even other characters like spiderman are done better on other mediums because at least they keep the characters entertaining and desirable to the reader via finding some way to root for his struggles without whining or being a crybaby via angst. Like Dick Greyson or Beast Boy. Or hell even Naruto without the sasuke angst.

    In universe Spider-Man is not taken very seriously by some of his peers and most of the public because of his antics and his bad press ("Menace!") and that's an integral part of his character: the message is that you often do good, make sacrifices for other people's and your reward is scorn, derision, sometimes hate. But, if you are a really good person, a hero if you like, you keep doing good despite the cost. Ultimately that is what makes you a hero, one of the greatest in fact, and that's exactly what Peter Parker is, someone who does his part despite knowing there's no reward for it.
    In a way it is a more realistic take (or a critique?) on how things work in the real world: sly and cunning people often claim and get credit because of things other people did while the latter are not given their due.

    As far as accomplishment go Spier-Man has saved the world a few times alone and defeated his share of godlike beings. On top of my head, the likes of the Juggernaut, Firelord, 2 of the Phoenix Five and even decisively helped deafeating Thanos. Not many Marvel heroes can boast such accomplishments, certainly none who are considered "street level".

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    2,965

    Default

    Spidey as a dominant alpha male super stud winner.
    No, that’s not the Spidey i fell in love with or want.

    It’s funny but Spidey’s always offered me something I can relate to.
    I got different things from the same stories depending on where I was in life.
    As a kid it was pure escapism, pretty colors, cool villains etc. A few years later it was the less than ideal home life, the missing father figure, the cash problems, the shitty school environment; all things he didn’t run away from, but didn’t always triumph over either.
    Then there was the balancing of work and personal life, the romantic entanglements (because for as many hot women as he’s gotten with, those women have always been a source of drama and heartache for this guy), the just plain growing up. Eventually there was marriage and all the great and not so great stuff that comes w. it.

    I mean, i like Wolverine, and Tony Stark, and Cap etc. but, I’m not the best at everything I do, or a handsome self made genius, or a role model.
    I’m a guy who’s always just tried his best to do the right thing and it hasn’t always worked out for me that’s okay.

  6. #6
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    I love spidey one of the best heroes in the world, but compared to supes, batman, captain america, ironman and wolverine, he falls short of being a mainly idolized man fantasy, and to much of a nerdy torture porn type. I think thats the problem spiderman, he has creators and writers who just wont develop him into any sucessful male empowerment who looked up to and always somehow failing and looking weak. Meanwhile, heroes like superman or captain america are the lynchpins of respect yet mature masculinity and ironman and wolverine are the shallow desires of masculinity and respect(especially to women) and i feel thats what makes them better heroes than spiderman, they fufill expectation for their target audience most of the time while peter has to be written as a neurotic or ooc loser as a part of his teenage/young adult appeal but ends up hurting his image as a character who mostly has writers screeing him over for some reason relating to manchild habits.

    So who agrees, the peter parker concept is mostly undermined intentionally out of sheer contempt of the character to me when he deserves to be treated like one of the greatest heroes. Even other characters like spiderman are done better on other mediums because at least they keep the characters entertaining and desirable to the reader via finding some way to root for his struggles without whining or being a crybaby via angst. Like Dick Greyson or Beast Boy. Or hell even Naruto without the sasuke angst.
    I admit Peter Parker could have something better, like when he had Parker Industries to back him up. But that's not the important part of Peter Parker as a hero, but his "human spirit". I mean, most of the heroes think too big (alien invasions, sorcerers, demons, crime bosses...), but Peter Parker is the regular "guy in the street". If Peter can, he will sacrifice himself to help a mon to get enough money to aoid being kicked out with his three kids. Would any other superhero do something like that?

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    12,561

    Default

    He's not a loser, but he is perceived that way. He does face more setbacks than the typical superhero.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  8. #8
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I don't agree with any of this.

    I can't think of a superhero that embodies male empowerment more than Spider-Man. How many other male heroes are as emotional as Spider-Man while still being cool? How many other male heroes can be badass without being aggressive? Who else is as good with kids as Peter in JMS' run without it coming off emasculating?

    Every male hero prior to Spider-Man was a stereotypical alpha male. Spider-Man was the James Dean of superheroes. He was the first to challenge notions about masculinity. That is very empowering. To turn him into a "male fantasy like Wolverine" is to disempower any man who is not Flash Thompson.
    I have a list man. Wolverine is one of these examples ir9nically and hes a alpha pussyslaying stud. Peter is one of tge kost agressive and irrationally impulsive heroes in fiction in my opinion.

    but Peter Parker is the regular "guy in the street". If Peter can, he will sacrifice himself to help a mon to get enough money to aoid being kicked out with his three kids. Would any other superhero do something like that?
    Have you read any books with daredevil. A man that does that through an actual job and skill. Peter is just a pre mature version of Barry Allen. And before you bring up how real spidey is, you must apply how real it to relate to peter, reminder he has a genius level intellect and super powers yet still acts like a struggling college student meanwhile barry and matt have gotten their acts together and balance there regular lives by acting on their struggles by getting productive jibs that compliments their powers, matt is blind but is a attorney and barrys a living motion generator and has a darker/stressful life balancing his hero/regular life yet hes a professional investigator.

    He's not a loser, but he is perceived that way. He does face more setbacks than the typical superhero.
    I just have fans fatige from expecting something settled in his victories and reputation/perception. Im not saying he should be chadly like ironman, but im sick of him not becoming akin to johnny storm already. Hes still a simp. This is why batman is still more popular than he is. Batman has a better perception of being the man we want to be, and still act like deep down. Peter....is a defeatist fantasy that men are going to have psychotic problems down the road due to how peter always keeps repeating his immature and self defeating habits.
    Last edited by SpideyCeo; 05-27-2020 at 08:13 AM.

  9. #9
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haquim View Post
    In universe Spider-Man is not taken very seriously by some of his peers and most of the public because of his antics and his bad press ("Menace!") and that's an integral part of his character: the message is that you often do good, make sacrifices for other people's and your reward is scorn, derision, sometimes hate. But, if you are a really good person, a hero if you like, you keep doing good despite the cost. Ultimately that is what makes you a hero, one of the greatest in fact, and that's exactly what Peter Parker is, someone who does his part despite knowing there's no reward for it.
    In a way it is a more realistic take (or a critique?) on how things work in the real world: sly and cunning people often claim and get credit because of things other people did while the latter are not given their due.

    As far as accomplishment go Spier-Man has saved the world a few times alone and defeated his share of godlike beings. On top of my head, the likes of the Juggernaut, Firelord, 2 of the Phoenix Five and even decisively helped deafeating Thanos. Not many Marvel heroes can boast such accomplishments, certainly none who are considered "street level".
    Peter being written as not being taken seriously/underestimated is bad writing and shitty drama tension. Peter is not normal or realistic anymore than matt murdock is but is written to backtrack and contridict certain expectations that heroes like him should and need to act on. Naruto is peter with more positive and happier consistancy in how he gets through problems, struggles, and achievements without the constant forced melodrama and regression. Peter doing more good doesnt change the fact it comes of as distracting from doing good in a more mature way like for instance selling his marriagebor mephisto to save his aunt may. Would someone like saitama, beast boy or naruto after learning along the better way in being better heroes would do the same for their loved ones?

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    New Richmond Ohio
    Posts
    2,212

    Default

    I dont think Peter is a loser. But one thing that frustrates me is that even after all of these years the writers still wont let him get his stuff together. Money problems, relationship problems. They were fine for a teenager or young adult but how long has he been around now?
    His public image also gets to me. He has saved the City, Hell the world more then one time. He was an Avenger, He has teamed up with pretty much every hero in the universe, and very publicly in a lot of instances. So how many Spiderman is a menace, What does Spiderman really want, oh look Spiderman just robbed a bank stories can the public believe?

    But he is not a loser at all. He makes great sacrifices to do the right thing. No matter what it would cost him. I mean he has his brain and life stolen by Doc Ock and still he came back and put the costume back on. Fact his no one does what he does as well as he does it.

    And of course Peter saved Aunt May by making a deal with Mephisto. if he didnt he would have no more wheat-cakes. And I would rather lose the love of a hot redhead supermodel then go through Wheat-cake withdraw.
    Favorite teams. Alpha Flight, Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  11. #11
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    I have a list man. Wolverine is one of these examples ir9nically and hes a alpha pussyslaying stud. Peter is one of tge kost agressive and irrationally impulsive heroes in fiction in my opinion.
    None of this is true. Wolverine is consistently portrayed as more aggressive, less in touch with his emotions, and worse with kids than Spider-Man.

  12. #12
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,172

    Default

    Peter is a looser in the same way that Charlie Brown is a looser.

    A lot of it's bad luck and lack of respect, but we admire them because they're good people, they loyal to their friends, and they dust themselves right back off and get going again.

    It's not that Peter has more bad stuff happen to him than your average hero, it's just that the bad stuff is more real and relatable. While Bruce Banner is dealing with a new version of his alternate personality and Ironman has to replace parts of his body with metal to stay alive, Peter is late on his bills and lost his costume in the laundry mat.

  13. #13
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    276

    Default

    Some of the impression that Peter is a loser comes from the culture and not the comics.

    The bullying part of Peter's life is the best example of this. People have this idea that Peter was constantly punched and shoved in lockers by Flash, but the Lee/Ditko Peter was the least physically bullied of all the versions. Most of the bullying in the Ditko run is social bullying, and Flash only physically assaults him once. The impression Peter was constantly wedgied and shoved in lockers came from Hollywood's portrayal of nerds and not from an actual Spider-Man comic.

    Later versions of the origin show Peter get a lot more bullied than under Lee/Ditko. This is because culture impacts comics as much as comics impact culture. The idea that Peter is a loser probably started out the same way. Some people who later became writers noticed surface-similarities between Peter and beta males in sitcoms, and then projected the latter onto Peter.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-27-2020 at 08:35 PM.

  14. #14
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    604

    Default

    True athough Garth Ennis Thousand story revealed that Peter had to deal with worse bullies than Flash who actually physically assault him. I get the feeling once Peter gotten his powers, he started showing more of a backbone to Flash and his buddies, and they still show hostility but thats about it. from Flashback in Bendis Ultimate Spider-man Flash(who doesn't not have any of the redeeming qualities that 616 Flash has) look like he got physical in his bullying before Peter got his powers. I don't like the idea that Peter is such a pushover even with his powers in BND, Roger Stern has Peter in a date with Debra Whitman and he got harrassed by a bigger guy and took Peter to the bathroom, next panel, Peter is coming out of the bathroom and you see the bigger guy on the toilet. yeah I like that. Hell Stan had Peter beat up some drug dealers(who hooked up Harry) in his iconic Drug issues with Harry.

  15. #15
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The Corner Office
    Posts
    1,611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    Spidey as a dominant alpha male super stud winner.
    No, that’s not the Spidey i fell in love with or want.

    It’s funny but Spidey’s always offered me something I can relate to.
    I got different things from the same stories depending on where I was in life.
    As a kid it was pure escapism, pretty colors, cool villains etc. A few years later it was the less than ideal home life, the missing father figure, the cash problems, the shitty school environment; all things he didn’t run away from, but didn’t always triumph over either.
    Then there was the balancing of work and personal life, the romantic entanglements (because for as many hot women as he’s gotten with, those women have always been a source of drama and heartache for this guy), the just plain growing up. Eventually there was marriage and all the great and not so great stuff that comes w. it.

    I mean, i like Wolverine, and Tony Stark, and Cap etc. but, I’m not the best at everything I do, or a handsome self made genius, or a role model.
    I’m a guy who’s always just tried his best to do the right thing and it hasn’t always worked out for me that’s okay.
    I posted this on the Batman board. But it applies here:

    https://www.knowledgeformen.com/what-is-a-beta-male/


    It's an article on what constitutes an alpha male vs. a beta male. To me Peter (at least the 90's version I was introduced to when I started reading and the version I prefer). Is actually a real Alpha male. Alpha men (and women). They don't live to impress others or keep score. They live life on their terms and for what makes them happy.
    Last edited by Mia; 05-29-2020 at 12:29 PM.
    • “I’m tired of worshiping other people’s gods.” –Maeve (WW)
    • “A man with no humility, is a man with no pride at all”. -Mike Prince (Billions)
    • “In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.” Albert Camus

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •