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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    "Foundations of the Comic" is a meaningless phrase.

    What's not meaningless is the fact that Mary Jane Watson has made more appearances in 616 Marvel than any Spider-Man character aside from Peter himself. She's made more than 1000 appearances making her in addition Marvel's most frequently appearing civilian character (alongside Jonah). As of 2019, she was in the top 10 most frequently appearing female characters, and the only civilian in that list.

    The appearances of the character in continuity is real empirical fact. Not subject for debate or quibbling. Since no other supporting character aside from her has comparable real estate and Spider-Man is Marvel's biggest character and his title has been top selling and consistent, then it stands to reason she's a major aspect of Spider-Man, and not extricable. And since that's a reality that endured OMD and Slott, there's no point in trying to beat around the bush and pretend that a fictional version of Spider-Man (i.e. some formula or concept dreamed up by fanboys in the 90s) can be superimposed to the one we actually have had.
    This sounds a lot like hindsight bias. You also said that they were also planning on making Green Goblin Peter's archnemesis from the start.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 09-23-2020 at 08:31 PM.

  2. #257
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    This sounds a lot like hindsight bias.
    A) Define what you mean by "hindsight bias".

    B) Explain how my post fits your definition.

    You also said that they were also planning on making Green Goblin Peter's archnemesis from the start.
    Irrelevant and tangential.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A) Define what you mean by "hindsight bias".

    B) Explain how my post fits your definition.



    Irrelevant and tangential.
    I’m saying that you talk as though Peter ending up with MJ was a forgone conclusion. The fact that it wasn’t was what made their relationship so appealing to begin with.

  4. #259
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I’m saying that you talk as though Peter ending up with MJ was a forgone conclusion. The fact that it wasn’t was what made their relationship so appealing to begin with.
    That's really not what is being discussed in context though.

    One poster objected to complaints about "will they or won't they" by invoking vague claims about "foundations of the character" that are far from clear, unambiguous, definite, or agreed on.

    I simply pointed out that the "foundations of the character" ultimately do have to give away to the lived experience of the readership and the character's publication history.

  5. #260
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    One poster objected to complaints about "will they or won't they" by invoking vague claims about "foundations of the character" that are far from clear, unambiguous, definite, or agreed on.

    I simply pointed out that the "foundations of the character" ultimately do have to give away to the lived experience of the readership and the character's publication history.
    No they don't.

    You're whole argument is little more than "I like this and don't like that."

    You point out MJ has tons of appearances, but neglect to mention that she's had far more appearances as a single person than as a married one.

  6. #261
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You're whole argument is little more than "I like this and don't like that."
    Ever heard of projection, my dude.

    You point out MJ has tons of appearances, but neglect to mention that she's had far more appearances as a single person than as a married one.
    This statement undermines your argument, not mine. My point is that Mary Jane is the second most important character in Spider-Man after Peter Parker. Her being so when they were married could have been explained away by saying that it's because of the status-quo and so on. But if she's still that 10 years Post-OMD, under an editorial regime hostile to her, with her popularity undiminished, with her being written out of the books for some 50 issues, i.e. the majority of BND...then that just confirms her resilience and longevity and fan demand.

    All the thumbs were pressed on the scale against her, and she's still at the top.

    As for your statistics,
    --From ASM#1-ASM#289 (before the proposal issues and the decision by editorial to marry them), Mary Jane appeared in 190 issues across all 616 Marvel. She was third behind Jonah (who had something like 300 odd at the time), and Aunt May (just two or three issues more than her). Which is remarkable for a character who made her on-screen debut 42 issues in, and who was also written out of the books for a huge chunk of issues between Wolfman and Stern. So her frequency of appearances was higher than both of the other characters.
    -- After they got married obviously she appeared more and there were more Spider-Man titles and series and so on in the twenty year period or so...So at the time of OMD, MJ made more appearances married than single.
    -- Since OMD, ASM was Thrice-A-Month (at first), and then Twice-A-Month to the present day. If Spider-Man stuck to monthly issues (as it did from 1962-2007) in the period from OMD to today, MJ would clock in more appearances married than single.

    The more important fact is Mary Jane's resilience and survival as a character.

  7. #262
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Edit: Never mind.
    Last edited by Alan2099; 09-24-2020 at 08:27 AM.

  8. #263
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    Is Spider-Man a loser? Let's find out:


  9. #264
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    Is Spider-Man a loser? Let's find out:

    Is this from Disk Wars or Future Avengers?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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