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  1. #211
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    Or that's just the drama that is the kind of soap opera that Lee, Ditko and Romita love to write.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I mean, it's not just that Peter is too hard on himself. The fact that some writers don't pick up on the reality of Peter being an unreliable narrator is worse. A lot of writers who play up the "Spider-Man is Peter sabotaging himself" angle take the character at his word. And taking a character at his word without taking into account why the character is saying it (or that most of his self-deprecating speeches come from his teenage days and should nto be replicated in adulthood) means you're taking things out-of-context.
    Hmm, yeah. Good points as well.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I mean, it's not just that Peter is too hard on himself. The fact that some writers don't pick up on the reality of Peter being an unreliable narrator is worse. A lot of writers who play up the "Spider-Man is Peter sabotaging himself" angle take the character at his word. And taking a character at his word without taking into account why the character is saying it (or that most of his self-deprecating speeches come from his teenage days and should nto be replicated in adulthood) means you're taking things out-of-context.
    Part of it seems to come from the idea that being Spider-Man is a form of escapism rather than actually work. Whether or not it's true depends on the work. It's extremely annoying how much writers like to flip-flop on this.

  3. #213
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    The latest issue of NS Amazing proves to me why he is one of the greatest heroes of the Marvel U.

  4. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    The latest issue of NS Amazing proves to me why he is one of the greatest heroes of the Marvel U.
    Exactly!

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Part of it seems to come from the idea that being Spider-Man is a form of escapism rather than actually work. Whether or not it's true depends on the work. It's extremely annoying how much writers like to flip-flop on this.
    Agreed. I think it has to do with a misconception that you can't have fun and be working at the same time. Also I think a small but loud minority of people will always interpret an adult Spider-Man as a childish loser no matter what. Some people have a false sense of maturity and feel like the very nature of acting quirky and jokey all the time the way Peter does when in costume is just him being immature. I don't think most people see it that way, though.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-09-2020 at 08:23 PM.

  6. #216
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Agreed. I think it has to do with a misconception that you can't have fun and be working at the same time. Also I think a small but loud minority of people will always interpret an adult Spider-Man as a childish loser no matter what. Some people have a false sense of maturity and feel like the very nature of acting quirky and jokey all the time the way Peter does when in costume is just him being immature. I don't think most people see it that way, though.
    That's actually one of my problems with Post-OMD, maybe i'm reading too much into it (i have my own bias, i won't deny it) but many writers ideas about youth is that Spidey is well an incompetent idiot, many of the post-OMD reeks of that to me. Is why Conway Spiral was like a breath of fresh air, that story wasn't anything special, but man it feel good to have a Spider-Man that acted like well, Spider-Man.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  7. #217
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Part of it seems to come from the idea that being Spider-Man is a form of escapism rather than actually work. Whether or not it's true depends on the work. It's extremely annoying how much writers like to flip-flop on this.
    I think that's part of the dichotomy of Spider-Man.

    Because...obviously there's a lot to love about being Spider-Man and swinging through New York, helping people, and having an outlet for oneself. But at the same time the burden of being Spider-Man and the sheer responsibility is more than most people could probably bear and the impact it has on Peter's life outside being Spider-Man and on his loved ones.

    I think this is kind of showcased with Chris Pine's Peter in Into the Spider-Verse where he seems like the classic, can do anything, Spider-Man who has his life together but you see some of the strain of having to continue getting back up again no matter what that eventually weighed on Jake Johnson's Peter.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    That's actually one of my problems with Post-OMD, maybe i'm reading too much into it (i have my own bias, i won't deny it) but many writers ideas about youth is that Spidey is well an incompetent idiot, many of the post-OMD reeks of that to me. Is why Conway Spiral was like a breath of fresh air, that story wasn't anything special, but man it feel good to have a Spider-Man that acted like well, Spider-Man.
    I think part of the problem with Post-OMD Spider-Man is that it is reactionary to JMS Spider-Man. The writers had to constantly "make Spider-Man sound younger", but pre-OMD writers weren't focused on "making him sound older", if that makes sense. They just wrote Spider-Man.

  9. #219
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I think part of the problem with Post-OMD Spider-Man is that it is reactionary to JMS Spider-Man. The writers had to constantly "make Spider-Man sound younger", but pre-OMD writers weren't focused on "making him sound older", if that makes sense. They just wrote Spider-Man.
    I spent so many mountains of posts laying out what you so elegantly summed up in two lines.

    Leo Gatsby Rex.jpg

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Truth be told, Venom's story as Spider-Man's villain is quite pathetic (at least from Brock's perspective). I mean, it all started because Spider-Man trapped a villain and Brock thought he interviewed the same villain, but it was an imposter. He then lose his job, his wife and reputation because Spider-Man simply revealed Brock commited a mistake. And instead of taking responsanility of his mistake, he makes a tantrum and blames Spider-Man. And the symbiote was trying to take over Spider-Man's body, so how can it be mad with Spider-Man for just defending himself? Any other host would have done the same!
    It was Sin Eater. Eddie interviewed someone who claimed to be Sin Eater but wasn't. At first Eddie was lauded for getting the interview...but then Spidey proved the Sin Eater was Stan Carter and not the guy Eddie interviewed.

    Personally I would like to see Eddie have a professionally redemptive arc. He uses his investigative reporter skills...and has all his sources lined up and un-impeachable....and breaks a big story.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    It was Sin Eater. Eddie interviewed someone who claimed to be Sin Eater but wasn't. At first Eddie was lauded for getting the interview...but then Spidey proved the Sin Eater was Stan Carter and not the guy Eddie interviewed.

    Personally I would like to see Eddie have a professionally redemptive arc. He uses his investigative reporter skills...and has all his sources lined up and un-impeachable....and breaks a big story.
    That would be an interesting story to tell. He restores his journalistic reputation, has a big redemption story as Eddie Brock instead of as Venom . . . I see some serious potential in that.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I spent so many mountains of posts laying out what you so elegantly summed up in two lines.

    Leo Gatsby Rex.jpg
    Honestly, all of OMD/BND can be summed up with the word "reactionary". The idea was essentially that Spider-Man has been "ruined" in the prior years to OMD, and that Marvel must therefore course-correct and return the character to a vague status quo of "the old days". What else do we call that but reactionary?

    Plus, if we look at all the reasons given for why a married Spider-Man is unrealistic or blasphemous (or both), they're all based on ageist notions of how high school/college are the best years of your life and how "the story is over" and all downhill from there. The "crime" committed by JMS Spider-Man and other Spider-Man writers between 1987-2007 is that they dared show that you can grow up, get married, and not lose the positive qualities from the coming-of-age period of your life. Everyone knows that's just not possible, right? Peasants working 9-to-5 jobs like Peter are obviously doomed to an unhappy lifeless marriage with a nagging wife and will also become bitter and uptight after the age of 25 no matter what they do. Every sitcom and romcom on TV understands this is the natural order of things, why couldn't those silly Spider-Man comics get on board too?
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-13-2020 at 06:55 PM.

  13. #223
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Honestly, all of OMD/BND can be summed up with the word "reactionary". The idea was essentially that Spider-Man has been "ruined" in the prior years to OMD, and that Marvel must therefore course-correct and return the character to a vague status quo of "the old days". What else do we call that but reactionary?
    What else can I say, you got it in one.

    Like all reactionaries, they clung to a version of the continuity that never really existed, to a take on the character that wasn't really what they assumed was there, and which they misread to the extent it existed, and in the process of going back, they actually created something new and totally inorganic.

    In a very real sense, and this applies to Quesada's overall editorial, the Marvel Universe isn't really the house of Stan, Jack and Steve anymore. It's the house Quesada redecorated with his tacky decors and tastes. To me, since OMD, 616 Spider-Man isn't really the character Lee and Ditko created. To me JMS was the last writer of that, while Matt Fraction wrote the last story with those characters but to me BND Spider-Man, Slott's Spider-Man, and despite my liking it, even Spencer's Spider-Man, is not really the original Peter Parker anymore.

  14. #224
    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    It was Sin Eater. Eddie interviewed someone who claimed to be Sin Eater but wasn't. At first Eddie was lauded for getting the interview...but then Spidey proved the Sin Eater was Stan Carter and not the guy Eddie interviewed.

    Personally I would like to see Eddie have a professionally redemptive arc. He uses his investigative reporter skills...and has all his sources lined up and un-impeachable....and breaks a big story.
    Curiously enough, thanks to Axis: Carnage, we know that Emil Gregg (the guy who Eddie exposed) was the actual, original Sin-Eater whom Stan Carter based himself off, yet nobody believed him but Brock and he took that with him to the grave. So in the end, Eddie did get the correct guy and was unjustifiably framed, but no story has actually done anything with that. It's just a curious detail.

    Also, he did get something similar to that...kinda. In Venom #16, since he didn't have the Symbiote, he had to do some work for some of his old contacts where he found several disappeared kids that were abducted by Carnage cultists. He didn't get his name cleaned sadly, and it wasn't a big story. But it sounds similar to what you infer, and it works as a sort of exorcism of Eddie Brock's (the person, the man. Not Venom) flaws.

  15. #225
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    What else can I say, you got it in one.

    Like all reactionaries, they clung to a version of the continuity that never really existed, to a take on the character that wasn't really what they assumed was there, and which they misread to the extent it existed, and in the process of going back, they actually created something new and totally inorganic.

    In a very real sense, and this applies to Quesada's overall editorial, the Marvel Universe isn't really the house of Stan, Jack and Steve anymore. It's the house Quesada redecorated with his tacky decors and tastes. To me, since OMD, 616 Spider-Man isn't really the character Lee and Ditko created. To me JMS was the last writer of that, while Matt Fraction wrote the last story with those characters but to me BND Spider-Man, Slott's Spider-Man, and despite my liking it, even Spencer's Spider-Man, is not really the original Peter Parker anymore.
    I think that they really liked Wolfman's run a tad too much frankly. Looking back i can see where some.of their ideas came from.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

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