Is Peter Parker truly a loser compared to other heroes?

[Zelena]

What I mean is we as a reader see him as a hero because we knew that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. But if we live in Marvel Universe and we see from that angle which is Peter Parker spent most of his life taking photos of Spider-Man to mock him with a huge grin on his face, despite he is saving the people of new york from lunatics. Not only that, but Peter Parker is also the Elon Musk for 6 months and then he blew all of his money in one night. For unknown reasons.

But we, the readers, never see Peter Parker from an external viewpoint, we are with him when he is misunderstood, mocked… And, in a way, by proxy, we who are on Peter Parker’s side, we are mocked, too…

“Loser” is a judgement, made by those who don’t have the whole picture: Peter Parker is just half of the person like Spider-man is. What reality this judgement has?

[Huntsman Spider]

But we, the readers, never see Peter Parker from an external viewpoint, we are with him when he is misunderstood, mocked… And, in a way, by proxy, we who are on Peter Parker’s side, we are mocked, too…

“Loser” is a judgement, made by those who don’t have the whole picture: Peter Parker is just half of the person like Spider-man is. What reality this judgement has?

A good point as well. We don't often get to see Peter from someone else's viewpoint for an extended period of time, so . . .

[Revolutionary_Jack]

A good point as well. We don't often get to see Peter from someone else's viewpoint for an extended period of time, so . . .

There are many issues where we do get moments like that. "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" shows Tim Harrison making a scrapbook of his favorite hero, many issues where we see Spider-Man and Peter from Mary Jane's point of view. "The Daydreamers" shows how a bunch of people feel about Spider-Man.

Then you have KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT, the entire point of that story is that Kraven is fixated on Spider-Man as the embodiment of the totem of spider...i.e. to him Spider-Man the being embodied in the costume is the real guy and the person behind that mask is immaterial. So for Kraven, Spider-Man is the deadly beast the powerful being he has never conquered and who he respects/fears/fails-to-understand.

Way back in Lee-Ditko's run, we actually got one scene where Peter was seen and described from another point of view. The doctor at the end of ASM#33.

"That Peter Parker certainly is a nice boy! He's sincere—well-mannered—and devoted to his Aunt! Too bad there aren't many more young men like that! Too bad someone like him can't be an idol for teenagers to imitate instead of some mysterious, unknown thrill-seeker like—Spider-Man!"
— Issue #33, written by Stan Lee

[Huntsman Spider]

There are many issues where we do get moments like that. "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" shows Tim Harrison making a scrapbook of his favorite hero, many issues where we see Spider-Man and Peter from Mary Jane's point of view. "The Daydreamers" shows how a bunch of people feel about Spider-Man.

Then you have KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT, the entire point of that story is that Kraven is fixated on Spider-Man as the embodiment of the totem of spider...i.e. to him Spider-Man the being embodied in the costume is the real guy and the person behind that mask is immaterial. So for Kraven, Spider-Man is the deadly beast the powerful being he has never conquered and who he respects/fears/fails-to-understand.

Way back in Lee-Ditko's run, we actually got one scene where Peter was seen and described from another point of view. The doctor at the end of ASM#33.

"That Peter Parker certainly is a nice boy! He's sincere—well-mannered—and devoted to his Aunt! Too bad there aren't many more young men like that! Too bad someone like him can't be an idol for teenagers to imitate instead of some mysterious, unknown thrill-seeker like—Spider-Man!"
— Issue #33, written by Stan Lee

Thanks for the correction there. Those were great moments, too.

[JTHM]

"I think the truth is...I so want to be. I want people to look at me the way they look at him. At Spider-Man. I've seen it. They see him, and they know everything is going to be okay."

Eddie Brock in Venom #25. Another very cool showing of respect to Spider-Man, coming from his former nemesis no less. Eddie Brock had a story with lying, but I don't think he was lying in this occasion. You don't look at a loser and breath easy knowing he's there.

[Huntsman Spider]

Eddie Brock in Venom #25. Another very cool showing of respect to Spider-Man, coming from his former nemesis no less. Eddie Brock had a story with lying, but I don't think he was lying in this occasion. You don't look at a loser and breath easy knowing he's there.

Thanks for mentioning that one. That was a great moment of character development.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Maybe. That's a good point. And while the more recent stuff may be more extreme compared to what came before . . . well, based on Armor Wars, there is (something of) a precedent for Tony doing bad things, even to his own friends and allies, convinced he's ultimately doing what's right and/or necessary. As for Peter's responsibility complex, I believe somewhere it gets called "responsibility OCD," or "hyperscrupulosity," in which someone lives with a borderline-pathological fear of not being able to protect others around them from harm.

Peter is actually an unreliable narrator to an extent. I reread the first 52 issues of Amazing Spider-Man recently up until Spider-Man No More. In it Peter quits being Spider-Man because he forgot to help out Aunt May, but there is literally only one other instance of him doing this in the entire first 52 issues (it's in the Third Annual where he forgot to refill her meds). Outside of those two instances, Peter actually did a phenomenal job of consistently caring for Aunt May's needs from any objective lens we look at these comics with (I mean, the Master Planner Arc anyone??? And that's just one story in the first 52 issues you can point to - there's also ASM #9, the vacation trip that Peter buys for May during the second Lizard appearance - the list goes on). Add to this the fact that earlier comics took place in more 'real time' (with Peter going from high school to college), and forgetting about Aunt May on two occasions in the span of a few years is normal human error. If anything the average person in his shoes would have forgot to refill her meds on probably more than two occasions within that same time frame of a few years. Silly 18-year old Peter on the other hand interpreted this as some colossal failure on his part and gave a big speech on how he is "always" failing the people around him and must therefore quit being Spider-Man. I believe the psych term for this is Catastrophizing.

[Huntsman Spider]

Peter is actually an unreliable narrator to an extent. I reread the first 52 issues of Amazing Spider-Man recently up until Spider-Man No More. In it Peter quits being Spider-Man because he forgot to help out Aunt May, but there is literally only one other instance of him doing this in the entire first 52 issues (it's in the Third Annual where he forgot to refill her meds). Outside of those two instances, Peter actually did a phenomenal job of consistently caring for Aunt May's needs from any objective lens we look at these comics with (I mean, the Master Planner Arc anyone??? And that's just one story in the first 52 issues you can point to - there's also ASM #9, the vacation trip that Peter buys for May during the second Lizard appearance - the list goes on). Add to this the fact that earlier comics took place in more 'real time' (with Peter going from high school to college), and forgetting about Aunt May on two occasions in the span of a few years is normal human error. If anything the average person in his shoes would have forgot to refill her meds on probably more than two occasions within that same time frame of a few years. Silly 18-year old Peter on the other hand interpreted this as some colossal failure on his part and gave a big speech on how he is "always" failing the people around him and must therefore quit being Spider-Man. I believe the psych term for this is Catastrophizing.

That's a good point you raise, that Peter is a lot harder on himself than he needs or deserves to be.

[Ursalink]

Eddie Brock in Venom #25. Another very cool showing of respect to Spider-Man, coming from his former nemesis no less. Eddie Brock had a story with lying, but I don't think he was lying in this occasion. You don't look at a loser and breath easy knowing he's there.

Truth be told, Venom's story as Spider-Man's villain is quite pathetic (at least from Brock's perspective). I mean, it all started because Spider-Man trapped a villain and Brock thought he interviewed the same villain, but it was an imposter. He then lose his job, his wife and reputation because Spider-Man simply revealed Brock commited a mistake. And instead of taking responsanility of his mistake, he makes a tantrum and blames Spider-Man. And the symbiote was trying to take over Spider-Man's body, so how can it be mad with Spider-Man for just defending himself? Any other host would have done the same!

[phantom1592]

Truth be told, Venom's story as Spider-Man's villain is quite pathetic (at least from Brock's perspective). I mean, it all started because Spider-Man trapped a villain and Brock thought he interviewed the same villain, but it was an imposter. He then lose his job, his wife and reputation because Spider-Man simply revealed Brock commited a mistake. And instead of taking responsanility of his mistake, he makes a tantrum and blames Spider-Man. And the symbiote was trying to take over Spider-Man's body, so how can it be mad with Spider-Man for just defending himself? Any other host would have done the same!

Brock's vendetta was always weak. I wish they had gone with a bit stronger motivation. I heard the original plan for the host was someone who had lost a child because of a battle Spider-man was having or something like that. THAT would have been stronger. Something that actually COULD be considered Spider-man's fault on some level (yeah, the villain is always the real problem, but if Spidey hadn't interfered, that car would have never been thrown at them...) that could cause deep resentment. The whole "YOU EXPOSED MY INCOMPETANCE!!!" is just weak.

As for the Symbiote? Nobody else seems to resist it... and for an alien mindset it wouldn't be doing anything wrong. Just doing what it's people do... joining with people at molecular level. How DARE he reject it so soon after dragging it to earth in the first place. The best stories i felt treated it like a spurned lover. Parker wore it, used it, enjoyed the bonuses it gave him...and the moment it wanted something from him... he ditched it.

From human perspective, he's 100% right and normal... but from the alien point of view? I can see it being resentful and vengeful.

[TheCape]

Truth be told, Venom's story as Spider-Man's villain is quite pathetic (at least from Brock's perspective). I mean, it all started because Spider-Man trapped a villain and Brock thought he interviewed the same villain, but it was an imposter. He then lose his job, his wife and reputation because Spider-Man simply revealed Brock commited a mistake. And instead of taking responsanility of his mistake, he makes a tantrum and blames Spider-Man. And the symbiote was trying to take over Spider-Man's body, so how can it be mad with Spider-Man for just defending himself? Any other host would have done the same!

That's kind of the point with Brock thougth, he doesn't take responsability for his mistakes, in contrast with Peter, so his motivation is fine, self deluded asholes like him are a thing (is also possible that there was something wrong with him before the symbiote joined him, but that's speculation of my part). Really i don't think that Eddie's motivation needed any tweaking, it serves his purpose as a bad guy.

[JTHM]

Truth be told, Venom's story as Spider-Man's villain is quite pathetic (at least from Brock's perspective). I mean, it all started because Spider-Man trapped a villain and Brock thought he interviewed the same villain, but it was an imposter. He then lose his job, his wife and reputation because Spider-Man simply revealed Brock commited a mistake. And instead of taking responsanility of his mistake, he makes a tantrum and blames Spider-Man. And the symbiote was trying to take over Spider-Man's body, so how can it be mad with Spider-Man for just defending himself? Any other host would have done the same!

I've always liked a few readings that one could make into Brock's origins after several stories. Especially with the new light shade into him by Lethal Protector and Donny Cates' recent run.

Eddie Brock was always conditioned to hate someone like Peter Parker, because at his core, the thing he wanted the most was appreciation and validation. From his father, from his peers, and even from himself from all the bad things he did. His reporter gig was a way to get that, recognition and awe, but Spider-Man (in his eyes) took it all from him and what's more, is all that Eddie himself is not: A beloved hero whom people admire and look up to. But it's exactly from that same standpoint that I thought Brock recognizing Spider-Man as the superior hero was a very cool moment. It was him just accepting that: That Peter is everything he is not.

In regards to the Symbiote. There is also a good deal stories that give its point of view some logic behind it. For example, as recently as Amazing Spider-Man (2018) Annual #1 we saw that the Symbiote truly admired Peter and what he did, and wanted to be like him and be with him. Yet, it could not communicate itself and was ignorant to how humans worked. This caused Peter's rejection to stung hard in the Symbiote's broken psyche. In its mind, the friend he wanted to be with so much called him a parasite and bad, and threw him away in a cage. Even then, Venom itself also recognized that it had done bad after time.

Brock's vendetta was always weak. I wish they had gone with a bit stronger motivation. I heard the original plan for the host was someone who had lost a child because of a battle Spider-man was having or something like that. THAT would have been stronger. Something that actually COULD be considered Spider-man's fault on some level (yeah, the villain is always the real problem, but if Spidey hadn't interfered, that car would have never been thrown at them...) that could cause deep resentment. The whole "YOU EXPOSED MY INCOMPETANCE!!!" is just weak.

Yeah. The original Venom pitch was for a woman who lost her husband and miscarriages because the taxi she was going through crashed due to a nearby fight where Spider-Man was in. Sadly, it was rejected because editors at the time thought a female host wouldn't be believable as a Spider-Man antagonist (and while this wasn't said, I also imagine they changed the overall story beats because they didn't want Spider-Man to look too bad) Even then, I would really like to see a What If coming with this original take. But this is all off-topic by now.

[Hulkout42]

I love spidey one of the best heroes in the world, but compared to supes, batman, captain america, ironman and wolverine, he falls short of being a mainly idolized man fantasy, and to much of a nerdy torture porn type. I think thats the problem spiderman, he has creators and writers who just wont develop him into any sucessful male empowerment who looked up to and always somehow failing and looking weak. Meanwhile, heroes like superman or captain america are the lynchpins of respect yet mature masculinity and ironman and wolverine are the shallow desires of masculinity and respect(especially to women) and i feel thats what makes them better heroes than spiderman, they fufill expectation for their target audience most of the time while peter has to be written as a neurotic or ooc loser as a part of his teenage/young adult appeal but ends up hurting his image as a character who mostly has writers screeing him over for some reason relating to manchild habits.

So who agrees, the peter parker concept is mostly undermined intentionally out of sheer contempt of the character to me when he deserves to be treated like one of the greatest heroes. Even other characters like spiderman are done better on other mediums because at least they keep the characters entertaining and desirable to the reader via finding some way to root for his struggles without whining or being a crybaby via angst. Like Dick Greyson or Beast Boy. Or hell even Naruto without the sasuke angst.

You list all these characters and yet i still wish i could be Peter Parker, because to me he is the epitome of what it means to be a hero and a good person. The fact that in one issue God tells him all the good he has done, all the lives he has saved cements to me the fact that he is a hero among heroes. He struggles in all aspects in his life but still marches forward and shows he is the better man, he faces monsters and madmen more powerful then him and triumphs. He mourns does he cannot save but still tries to do better.

As Peter he does his best to be for his family, he is a good husband, son and when Marvel let's him a father.

I wish i could be that character, that i had that level of fortitude and strength.

[Laufeyson]

That's a good point you raise, that Peter is a lot harder on himself than he needs or deserves to be.

Or that's just the drama that is the kind of soap opera that Lee, Ditko and Romita love to write.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

That's a good point you raise, that Peter is a lot harder on himself than he needs or deserves to be.

I mean, it's not just that Peter is too hard on himself. The fact that some writers don't pick up on the reality of Peter being an unreliable narrator is worse. A lot of writers who play up the "Spider-Man is Peter sabotaging himself" angle take the character at his word. And taking a character at his word without taking into account why the character is saying it (or that most of his self-deprecating speeches come from his teenage days and should nto be replicated in adulthood) means you're taking things out-of-context.