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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Nah. Hank Pym is #1 Loser in Marvel. It's the only thing he's #1 at, let him have it.
    I agree Pym is a douche, but is he worse then someone like Red Skull or Cletus? I thought Sallis was worse because his situation is hopeless. Pym can get help.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I agree Pym is a douche, but is he worse then someone like Red Skull or Cletus? I thought Sallis was worse because his situation is hopeless. Pym can get help.
    Pym can get help only when Marvel writers remember they can write about something other than a slap and Ultron.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Pym can get help only when Marvel writers remember they can write about something other than a slap and Ultron.
    Pym was not a bad guy in the MCU ( Ant Man and Ant Man & The Wasp were quite good). Another example of a loser is Otto. He had the chance to be with someone who accepted him ( Anna Maria) and still decided to be an arrogant creep.

  4. #34
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    I think the only one who thinks Peter is a loser, is Peter. it's more of a self-confidence thing than it is based on any kind of actual evidence. His problems aren't THAT extreme and he has a LOT of good in his life. He just has a habit of looking at things at 'half-empty' more often than not. But compared to the other characters running around? He has an awesome life.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I think the only one who thinks Peter is a loser, is Peter. it's more of a self-confidence thing than it is based on any kind of actual evidence. His problems aren't THAT extreme and he has a LOT of good in his life. He just has a habit of looking at things at 'half-empty' more often than not. But compared to the other characters running around? He has an awesome life.
    Exactly. Fundamentally, Peter lives in a very sanitized corner of the Marvel Universe. He's an all-ages characters at most PG-13, but never more. As such if you compare the stories in Daredevil, Jessica Jones, The Punisher with Spider-Man's even if they are all "Street-Level" you will find that Spider-Man rarely tackles issues like rape, child abuse, human trafficking, and other R-rated serious stuff that you get there.

    The reason is that you can't have Peter whine about "Parker luck" in a story where he comes truly unfortunate and deeply oppressed people. He'll come off like a sociopath.

    So that's why "Parker luck" as a concept is make believe and not really meant to be taken seriously. Because it falls apart if you try and do so. And that's also why Peter isn't a loser on any level.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I think the only one who thinks Peter is a loser, is Peter. it's more of a self-confidence thing than it is based on any kind of actual evidence. His problems aren't THAT extreme and he has a LOT of good in his life. He just has a habit of looking at things at 'half-empty' more often than not. But compared to the other characters running around? He has an awesome life.
    I think it is something a bit different. He believes he has an obligation to save everyone in New York ( that is why he even tried to save someone evil like Norman Osborn). The “With great power comes great responsibility” motto. Another point is this: Look at all the women he's been with ( especially Mary Jane and Felicia Hardy).
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 06-18-2020 at 06:50 AM. Reason: Sexist-orcism

  7. #37
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    Anyone that writes peter going back to being poor is not someone who O buy wants the character to be anything more than a loser.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    but compared to supes, batman, captain america, ironman and wolverine, he falls short of being a mainly idolized man fantasy, and to much of a nerdy torture porn type
    Whew boy. I mean sure, comics at a base level can be written and read as power fantasies, but that's a pretty surface level scratch on a medium that can go a lot deeper than that (half of the characters you mentioned are actually pretty flawed and toxic representatives of "masculinity" as a concept in their own individual ways at that and maybe not characters to ever be idolized, per se). Marvel in particular I don't feel has ever really sold their characters in such a manner, instead using them to tell stories of humanity through superheroic tropes - and Spider-Man isn't any different. He's not a loser, he's human character with human issues like most of their characters. The constant juggle between his private and sueprhero life while reckoning with responsibility is as much of "flaw" to his character as Stark's ego and alcoholism, Wolverine's bloodthirstyness and emotional stiltedness, Cap's rigidity, and so on.
    Last edited by Zeitgeist; 06-28-2020 at 06:38 AM.
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  9. #39
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Peter Parker is a "soyboy."
    No he can't be though look at all the fictional puss he's crushed
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  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Whew boy. I mean sure, comics at a base level can be written and read as power fantasies, but that's a pretty surface level scratch on a medium that can go a lot deeper than that
    Superheroes are icons, and as such, surfaces tend to have a much more lasting impact than depths.

    (half of the characters you mentioned are actually pretty flawed and toxic representatives of "masculinity" as a concept in their own individual ways at that and maybe not characters to ever be idolized, per se).
    That's not the case, always and all times. Superman was unironically presented as an American patriarch in the 50s, who was always right always good. Batman likewise has been unironically glorified as the "most competent human" "coolest guy in the room" nonstop since the 80s and especially the 90s.

    Iron Man...well, in MCU Spider-Man movies, he's certainly presented and framed as an overall great man whose legacy can only be criticized by the evil impoverished.

    Marvel in particular I don't feel has ever really sold their characters in such a manner, instead using them to tell stories of humanity through superheroic tropes - and Spider-Man isn't any different.
    That's again the story Marvel wants to tell itself. The reality is different. Take Iron Man, read the original comics, and his involvement in Vietnam as a Cold Warrior was unquestioned and framed unironically.

    Fundamentally Marvel Comics for the longest time ran on male angst. And male angst is very much on the same side as male entitlement. Marvel Comics historically had fewer notable female superheroes than DC did (not that DC are feminists but this is a Marvel character board). A lot of Marvel male superheroes are womanizer types (Iron Man, Johnny Storm, Daredevil, Wolverine, Thor [more recently]). And at the end of Marvel humanizing its heroes still existed with a new kind of idealization.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Superheroes are icons, and as such, surfaces tend to have a much more lasting impact than depths.



    That's not the case, always and all times. Superman was unironically presented as an American patriarch in the 50s, who was always right always good. Batman likewise has been unironically glorified as the "most competent human" "coolest guy in the room" nonstop since the 80s and especially the 90s.

    Iron Man...well, in MCU Spider-Man movies, he's certainly presented and framed as an overall great man whose legacy can only be criticized by the evil impoverished.



    That's again the story Marvel wants to tell itself. The reality is different. Take Iron Man, read the original comics, and his involvement in Vietnam as a Cold Warrior was unquestioned and framed unironically.

    Fundamentally Marvel Comics for the longest time ran on male angst. And male angst is very much on the same side as male entitlement. Marvel Comics historically had fewer notable female superheroes than DC did (not that DC are feminists but this is a Marvel character board). A lot of Marvel male superheroes are womanizer types (Iron Man, Johnny Storm, Daredevil, Wolverine, Thor [more recently]). And at the end of Marvel humanizing its heroes still existed with a new kind of idealization.
    I really disagree with this. The reason why DC has had female heroines longer then Marvel, is they have been around longer ( see Wonder Woman and Black Canary). and on average comic book readers have generally been male, and comics like most forms of entertainment are targeted at their primary audience which are guys. Of course, everything is not for guys. Soap operas or Mexican Telenovalas on the other hand are targeted at the ladies so the heroine has to go through the angst. Music is another example of this. Most guys ( I certainly include myself) do not like Celine Dion, and I have yet to meet the woman who likes Led Zeppelin (and that includes ladies who like AC/DC and Metallica). Why? Listen to Zeppelin lyrics like “Well that’s alright I know your sister too.” ( Black Country Woman), and that is one example of this. Listen to ‘Hot Dog’ ‘Lemon Song’ and many others and you get the picture.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 06-28-2020 at 07:43 AM.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    The reason why DC has had female heroines longer then Marvel, is they have been around longer ( see Wonder Woman and Black Canary).
    Marvel Comics has existed for as long as DC. Back in the 30s, the company was called Timely Comics and it was in that time you had Namor the Submariner, the original Human Torch, Captain America and Bucky. And of course DC comics was originally called National Comics when Superman and Batman made their first appearances.

    ...and on average comic book readers have generally been male...
    You are conflating superhero comic readers with comic book readers in full.

    In the 40s and 50s, superheroes were by no means the dominant genre. In fact Jack Kirby and Joe Simon in the late 40s, launched Young Romance and created the romance genre which hit it bit in that period. Likewise you had comics like Little Lulu, Little Dot, Wendy the Good Witch, and of course Archie Comics which had a big female audience. Heck Marvel itself had romance comics, like Millie the Model (which by the way is the longest lasting title of any female character in Marvel publication history...the only female superhero, so far, who has made it to 100 issues is Spider-Girl).

    So the idea that women never comprised the average comic book reader is false.

    Most guys ( I certainly include myself) do not like Celine Dion, and I have yet to meet the woman who likes Led Zeppelin (and that includes ladies who like AC/DC and Metallica). Why? Listen to Zeppelin lyrics like “Well that’s alright I know your sister too.” ( Black Country Woman), and that is one example of this.
    Well rock music isn't just about listening, it's also about performance. Maybe you've never atttended rock concerts but if you did you will find a lot of women and girls there. Led Zeppelin is, and I might be presuming here, before both our times but if you see old videos you will find a lot of girls in the audiences of their performance.

    And I know several women who like Led Zeppelin music. One of them introduced me to obscure Led Zeppelin music I hadn't heard of.

  13. #43
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    In all fairness, the OP does highlight a bit of a problem with 616 Spider-Man: Peter Parker's status relative to other heroes is kinda ambiguous.

    This isn't a problem for a young Spider-Man, but I would like a clearer idea of what people in the MU think of him after 10+ years of being Spider-Man (especially now that there is a second Spider-Man). Instead the public in modern Spider-Man stories is a lot like the Gothamites in The Dark Knight Rises - you don't know what they think or where they stand on the hero and the events around them.

    JMS' run is the exception to this, where Spider-Man constantly interacted with 'ordinary' people (probably an advantage of him having worked on television shows). Even then, where Spider-Man stands in public opinion compared to other heroes isn't addressed. Civil War would have been a good time to bring that up.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-28-2020 at 08:33 AM.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    In all fairness, the OP does highlight a bit of a problem with 616 Spider-Man: Peter Parker's status relative to other heroes is kinda ambiguous.

    This isn't a problem for a young Spider-Man, but I would like a clearer idea of what people in the MU think of him after 10+ years of being Spider-Man (especially now that there is a second Spider-Man).
    On account of there being different writers who come and go, it changes all the time. We get clear answers but then someone else who wants to go "back to basics" (aka what I misremember as basics for self-aggrandizing reasons) will come along and shuffle it.


    "His strength—! His speed—! Unbelievable! He is AWESOME!"
    — Nightcrawler, Secret Wars (1984), written by Jim Shooter. (1984)

    Johnny Storm: I don't believe it. How is it possible?
    Peter Parker: Well there was this radioactive spider, and—-
    Johnny Storm Not that. I mean, how can just one guy have it all? To grow up and have someone like your Aunt May there...to be this big hotshot photographer...to have a brain the size of Mr. Fantastic's...and the babes! Man, the girls I've seen you with! God, how I envied you. You always had everything going for you!
    Peter Parker: What?!
    Johnny Storm: Over the years, I even came up with a term for it. I called it 'the Parker luck'.
    — Spider-Man/Human Torch, Issue #5 "I'm With Stupid", written by Dan Slott. (2005)

    Spider-Man's a hero. I understand a lot of people are put off by his mask, and his...comedic sensibilities...but in my opinion? He's one of the greatest men I've ever known.
    — Captain America, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man #310 written by Chip Zdarsky. (2018)

  15. #45
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Superheroes are icons, and as such, surfaces tend to have a much more lasting impact than depths.
    How would you explain Spider-Man's popularity then? He presents a kind of power fantasy sure, in the sense that anyone could be under the mask, but that's connected to his inherent relatability as a very human character. Spider-Man's depth is what has carried his legacy much further than anything surface about him, so to your rebuttal I'd say not always the case at all.


    That's not the case, always and all times. Superman was unironically presented as an American patriarch in the 50s, who was always right always good. Batman likewise has been unironically glorified as the "most competent human" "coolest guy in the room" nonstop since the 80s and especially the 90s
    Exactly my point, as I wasn't talking about just intentional depictions, especially concerning a character like Batman - often seen as an ultimate power fantasy with all the money, neat gadgets and vehicles, always depicted as the smartest man in the room, etc (let's be honest, he's a bit of a Gary Stu) which is why he's so "cool", kind of ignoring/forgetting that beneath all of that on a human level he's a man so wholly consumed by vengeance that he often forgoes most semblances of joy or pleasure in his private life. It's an unhealthy, toxic obsession, but y'know, punching your way through your psychological issues is manly and therapy is for girls, he's broody and badass and has a cool butler (?) so whatever.

    Iron Man...well, in MCU Spider-Man movies, he's certainly presented and framed as an overall great man whose legacy can only be criticized by the evil impoverished.
    But in the general MCU films there's Civil War, Age Of Ultron
    Last edited by Zeitgeist; 06-28-2020 at 08:41 AM.
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