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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Iron Man...well, in MCU Spider-Man movies, he's certainly presented and framed as an overall great man whose legacy can only be criticized by the evil impoverished.
    And Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Christine Everheart, Miriam Sharpe and Hank Pym none of whom are evil (or in Wanda's case she kind of is but isn't acknowledged as such by the narrative).

    Fundamentally Marvel Comics for the longest time ran on male angst. And male angst is very much on the same side as male entitlement. Marvel Comics historically had fewer notable female superheroes than DC did (not that DC are feminists but this is a Marvel character board). A lot of Marvel male superheroes are womanizer types (Iron Man, Johnny Storm, Daredevil, Wolverine, Thor [more recently]). And at the end of Marvel humanizing its heroes still existed with a new kind of idealization.
    Daredevil isn't a womanizer. He doesn't hook up with women for casual sex often and most of his relationships have been serious.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-28-2020 at 08:46 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    How would you explain Spider-Man's popularity then?
    Costume design and concept. Most people become fans of Spider-Man, the costume, and the idea of Spider-Man (crawling around walls and swinging via webs) long before they find out he's Peter Parker.

    Look at any 3 year old or 4 year old who plays with Spider-Man toys and action figures, or Spider-Man labels and stickers, or see the float at the Macy's Parade. That's not Peter Parker they are seeing. They are seeing Spider-Man. They are too young to read the comics or the movies. My three-year old nephew plays with Spider-Man toys all the time and he doesn't know his name is Peter Parker (he also doesn't know Tony Stark is Iron Man or Bruce is Bats). He loves his giant Spider-Man action figure which he mostly stages scenes of other toys bowing down before him, worshipping their god like Apokoliptans genuflecting before Darkseid.

    Today most kids exposure to Spider-Man are youtube videos for kids where he either fights or romances Elsa from Frozen. Stuff like Peter being Spider-Man doesn't enter into it at all.

    Go back to the 60s and 70s, and the main media exposure many civilians had to Spider-Man then was the cartoon theme song from the 1967 show ("Spider-Man Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can?") covered by The Ramones and others. The words "Peter Parker, Great Power" and so on aren't there in the lyrics. Spider-Man's popularity exists long before people learn that his name is Peter Parker, before "great power comes great responsibility" or for that matter, how old the character is. Which is why stuff like Spider-Man being teenage is the reason he's relatable is self-serving nosh with no empirical truth governing it.

    He presents a kind of power fantasy sure, in the sense that anyone could be under the mask, but that's connected to his inherent relatability as a very human character.
    At its core, Spider-Man's popularity comes down to cool costume, cool powers, and interesting design. For small kids, insects or spiders are the first animals they usually encounter, and many of them tend to be fascinated by bugs. Likewise they spend their early years crawling and being confined by walls and ceilings. A character who crawls around a wall and has a totem of an insect appeals to them directly before anything else.

    Spider-Man's depth is what has carried his legacy much further than anything surface about him,...
    Well consider the PS4 game that sold millions of copies that came out 2 years back. That game has a story campaign and it targeted an audience of teenagers to adults, not entirely young kids. And it had a story that many felt captured the Peter Parker side of things. And yet just a little more than 50% of consumers completed or played the story (https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/ma...mpletion-rate/). Two quarters of the audience bought and played the game just to swing around a New York sandbox.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Marvel Comics has existed for as long as DC. Back in the 30s, the company was called Timely Comics and it was in that time you had Namor the Submariner, the original Human Torch, Captain America and Bucky. And of course DC comics was originally called National Comics when Superman and Batman made their first appearances.



    You are conflating superhero comic readers with comic book readers in full.

    In the 40s and 50s, superheroes were by no means the dominant genre. In fact Jack Kirby and Joe Simon in the late 40s, launched Young Romance and created the romance genre which hit it bit in that period. Likewise you had comics like Little Lulu, Little Dot, Wendy the Good Witch, and of course Archie Comics which had a big female audience. Heck Marvel itself had romance comics, like Millie the Model (which by the way is the longest lasting title of any female character in Marvel publication history...the only female superhero, so far, who has made it to 100 issues is Spider-Girl).

    So the idea that women never comprised the average comic book reader is false.



    Well rock music isn't just about listening, it's also about performance. Maybe you've never atttended rock concerts but if you did you will find a lot of women and girls there. Led Zeppelin is, and I might be presuming here, before both our times but if you see old videos you will find a lot of girls in the audiences of their performance.

    And I know several women who like Led Zeppelin music. One of them introduced me to obscure Led Zeppelin music I hadn't heard of.
    I am not saying there are not ladies who like Zeppelin, but I just have not met anyone yet. The ex certainly was one who did not like them and the current one says “They ( meaning Robert Plant) sounds like a rooster”). I have considered performance to be secondary to lyrics, themes and instrumentals. Which is why certain groups and singers are still popular long after they are no longer performing (Hank Williams, Johnny Cash and The Beatles come to mind ( along with Zeppelin of course)). As for comics I understand Millie The Model has been around for decades before Spider-Man and The Fantastic Four), but if I guarantee you that you needed to subscribe or to look very hard to find Millie comics or even Mary Jane loves Spider-Man when it was out ( unlike of course, Amazing). You are especially not hearing debates about Archie characters like you are about Gwen Stacy, almost 50 years after she was knocked off.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    No he can't be though look at all the fictional puss he's crushed
    Compared to johnny storm and logan, yes hes a soy boy.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Superheroes are icons, and as such, surfaces tend to have a much more lasting impact than depths.



    That's not the case, always and all times. Superman was unironically presented as an American patriarch in the 50s, who was always right always good. Batman likewise has been unironically glorified as the "most competent human" "coolest guy in the room" nonstop since the 80s and especially the 90s.

    Iron Man...well, in MCU Spider-Man movies, he's certainly presented and framed as an overall great man whose legacy can only be criticized by the evil impoverished.



    That's again the story Marvel wants to tell itself. The reality is different. Take Iron Man, read the original comics, and his involvement in Vietnam as a Cold Warrior was unquestioned and framed unironically.

    Fundamentally Marvel Comics for the longest time ran on male angst. And male angst is very much on the same side as male entitlement. Marvel Comics historically had fewer notable female superheroes than DC did (not that DC are feminists but this is a Marvel character board). A lot of Marvel male superheroes are womanizer types (Iron Man, Johnny Storm, Daredevil, Wolverine, Thor [more recently]). And at the end of Marvel humanizing its heroes still existed with a new kind of idealization.
    I agree with all of this.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    You are especially not hearing debates about Archie characters like you are about Gwen Stacy, almost 50 years after she was knocked off.
    You shouldn't confuse CBR Spider-Man Sub-Forum for wider society. The characters of Archie Andrews, Betty Cooper, Veronica Lodge, Jughead are cultural icons as famous, and in some cases, more famous than most superhero comics. Across comics, Archie/Betty or Archie/Veronica is the biggest love triangle by far.

    In the case of Gwen Stacy, the fact is that until the 90s she was practically forgotten and little known outside the paltry numbers of comics readers. She never appeared in any Spider-Man adaptation until the alternate universe in the last season of the Fox Spider-Man. Most people who saw Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies didn't know or care about who she was. The third movie introduced a version of her (based on Anne Weying) that didn't impress anyone and then the TASM movies which ultimately didn't make as much money as Spider-Man 3 and is now practically forgotten. The biggest success Gwen had was Into the Spider-Verse, where she's a love interest for Miles, and her history in comics as "girl-who-died" is not mentioned.

    Gwen Stacy is a big deal in Spider-Man comics and also Marvel but across the wider genre, she's not famous. The Death of Superman in the 90s...that was a big deal, that made it to primetime news. Gwen's death didn't make a dent of a comparative nature back in the 70s.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You shouldn't confuse CBR Spider-Man Sub-Forum for wider society. The characters of Archie Andrews, Betty Cooper, Veronica Lodge, Jughead are cultural icons as famous, and in some cases, more famous than most superhero comics. Across comics, Archie/Betty or Archie/Veronica is the biggest love triangle by far.

    In the case of Gwen Stacy, the fact is that until the 90s she was practically forgotten and little known outside the paltry numbers of comics readers. She never appeared in any Spider-Man adaptation until the alternate universe in the last season of the Fox Spider-Man. Most people who saw Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies didn't know or care about who she was. The third movie introduced a version of her (based on Anne Weying) that didn't impress anyone and then the TASM movies which ultimately didn't make as much money as Spider-Man 3 and is now practically forgotten. The biggest success Gwen had was Into the Spider-Verse, where she's a love interest for Miles, and her history in comics as "girl-who-died" is not mentioned.

    Gwen Stacy is a big deal in Spider-Man comics and also Marvel but across the wider genre, she's not famous. The Death of Superman in the 90s...that was a big deal, that made it to primetime news. Gwen's death didn't make a dent of a comparative nature back in the 70s.
    I admit I have never read an Archie Comic ( maybe the closest I came was the original Sabrina movie because I thought Kristy Swanson was hot), let alone know the last names of Archie etc, but to be fair romance stories are not my thing ( unless it involved something or someone else that interested me ( such as gangster films, westerns or a star I like such as Salma Hayak or Veronica Lake ( that is a Veronica I know and love)). But growing up on Long Island you never heard discussions about Archie Comics it was always Marvel or DC, as it was MJ versus Felicia versus Gwen as the girl you would choose (I always picked MJ and it is still my choice).

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I admit I have never read an Archie Comic
    Neither have I. But I don't confuse what I know with what is. Archie Comics are stuff that my parents, uncles, and others are familiar with, as are many of my female friends. They don't know anything about superhero stuff. When comics were actually read very widely, with its biggest readership (50s-60s), superhero comics were not dominant. I grew up reading comics but I didn't find superhero comics to read until my teenage years. So to me comics were never just about superheroes. And ultimately when comics as a business and industry was most alive and vibrant (creatively and financially), superhero comics weren't the top dog, it would do well for everyone to reflect on that.

    Al Pacino said in an interview that when he was a kid he was a big fan of Archie comics and he often did scenarios from that. Think of the fact, that Archie comics appealed to a poor working-class Sicilian-American from the Bronx and you have some idea of the readership in the 50s.

    Speaking personally, I am not all that familiar with manga and anime. I love Japanese cinema, i.e. live action Japanese cinema that is, and literature and I love some anime ("Grave of the Fireflies") and manga but I haven't taken a big deep dive into it. That doesn't mean I am not aware of how big and how incredibly influential they have been and continue to be on the global culture.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Neither have I. But I don't confuse what I know with what is. Archie Comics are stuff that my parents, uncles, and others are familiar with, as are many of my female friends. They don't know anything about superhero stuff. When comics were actually read very widely, with its biggest readership (50s-60s), superhero comics were not dominant. I grew up reading comics but I didn't find superhero comics to read until my teenage years. So to me comics were never just about superheroes. And ultimately when comics as a business and industry was most alive and vibrant (creatively and financially), superhero comics weren't the top dog, it would do well for everyone to reflect on that.

    Al Pacino said in an interview that when he was a kid he was a big fan of Archie comics and he often did scenarios from that. Think of the fact, that Archie comics appealed to a poor working-class Sicilian-American from the Bronx and you have some idea of the readership in the 50s.

    Speaking personally, I am not all that familiar with manga and anime. I love Japanese cinema, i.e. live action Japanese cinema that is, and literature and I love some anime ("Grave of the Fireflies") and manga but I haven't taken a big deep dive into it. That doesn't mean I am not aware of how big and how incredibly influential they have been and continue to be on the global culture.
    It is funny that Pacino was an Archie fan. Interestingly enough,
    I was and still am a huge Godfather fan. I did a speech at Toastmasters titled “Life Lessons From The Godfather.” I took quotes from the Puzo Novel and the movie (Don Vito ( Brando) and Michael Corleone ( Pacino)) and ended up winning.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How is selflessly helping people in danger sabotage? And if you extrapolate that, does that mean first responders sabotage their lives? Doctors and nurses?



    I think it matters more than anything. Because not everyone started at the same point on the same even field.

    And again the topic of the thread "Is Peter Parker truly a loser compared to other heroes" so other heroes are being roped into this discussion and I think you do need to compare the background and circumstances of the characters.

    Reed Richards until the 30s had no powers, grew up in a comfortable suburban home, and aside from some time in the army, had a fairly well-heeled existence. He got a long time to enjoy civilian life compared to Peter. Tony Stark until his mid-30s was not only a civilian but a fairly amoral one at that. That Peter Parker got his Damascus moment when he was half their ages is to his greater credit than theirs.



    Fair enough. You can interpret it that way, but saying that the creators intended that is a different thing.
    On the self-sabotage thing, ambulance drivers go to emergencies because they choose medicine and have training. Peter Parker is manically throwing himself at incidents. Most super heroes do, but Peter only has to hear it on a radio and he breaks away from his relationships because he has to fix everything. I don’t know if you can rate intervention, but Spider-Man to me is a 5, and Gwenpool is a 1. I would put most super heroes scattered along that line at different degrees, but Parker sits at the top.

    Just say Peter Parker didn’t become Spider-Man, what would he do with the 3 incidence in his life? Ben, Gwen, and MJ’s marriage? I think he would have resorted to drugs, because he would be powerless and far too over-emotional. I could be wrong.

    And comparing Peters economic condition to Reed and Tony may be difficult, because if you have money you can do a lot more than if you’re poor, granted. I only mentioned Reed and Tony as people how expected Peter to be successful considering Peters genius. Of course it makes sense Peter couldn’t take advantage of his genius because he was poor.
    Last edited by jackolover; 07-18-2020 at 07:48 PM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    On the self-sabotage thing, ambulance drivers go to emergencies because they choose medicine and have training. Peter Parker is manically throwing himself at incidents.
    1) Peter only does it because he has superpowers.

    2) Peter has nothing to fear, and is no danger against ordinary thugs and criminals. So he's not endangering himself on an everyday level against most common criminals.

    3) The powerful supervillains are a threat to Peter, but it's also a threat far beyond the capacity of most policemen and regular civic authorities. In other words, it's an emergency that only Spider-Man can handle. If you say other superheroes are there, they should handle it...well cops can always say there are other cops and other precincts. One superhero being on the scene and holding down some supervillains allows other supers to deal with other threats.

    Most super heroes do, but Peter only has to hear it on a radio and he breaks away from his relationships because he has to fix everything.
    I don't know how different it is from other heroes. Hank Pym destroyed his marriage permanently beyond repair because he couldn't handle being a hero. Iron Man chases away any possibility for a real relationship. Daredevil buries more girlfriends than any other hero.

    Not everyone can be like Mr. Fantastic and irradiate his partner and luck out that Susan hasn't divorced his ass for all the terrible s--ty things he has done.

    Just say Peter Parker didn’t become Spider-Man,
    A) Doylist Level - There would be no story. There's no audience for Peter Parker, regular dude. For all that people say "Spider-Man is Peter Parker", the fact that he is Spider-Man is the most important aspect of being Peter Parker.

    B) Watsonian Level - If Peter didn't become Spider-Man...Otto Octavius would still be Doctor Octopus, Norman Osborn still becomes Green Goblin. Most of the Lee-Ditko bad guys still become the supervillains they end up becoming with and without Spider-Man, since their origins are totally separate and independent from Peter's and they had no connection to him personally (The only exceptions would be...MacGargan may not become Scorpion, no Spider-Slayers, and Kraven won't be interested in hunting down Spider-Man). So the fact is Spider-Man not being there to stop these villains and stop the damage they end up doing would mean lives lost.

    what would he do with the 3 incidence in his life? Ben, Gwen, and MJ’s marriage? I think he would have resorted to drugs, because he would be powerless and far too over-emotional. I could be wrong.
    It's a moot question, because Peter Parker without the Spider-Bite would be an entirely different character.

    As a thought experiment...
    -- Uncle Ben still gets shot. That burglar robbed the studio for cash not to specifically target Spider-Man, so that happens regardless. The point of Ben's death is that it's Peter's fault because he didn't use his powers. Being Spider-Man gave him the one chance of saving him and he blew it. Obviously Uncle Ben's death would be devastating to Peter but he wouldn't really have the guilt of failing to intervene directly, but he'd still have trauma and feelings of helplessness and so on, and the issues of taking care of Aunt May.
    -- Mary Jane was next door the night Ben died, but since she saw Peter become Spider-Man, she reacted with shock and kept distance from Peter for years after that per Busiek and others. Without the Spider-Bite, Aunt May spent the night Ben died at Anna Watson's house in the aftermath just like OTL, it's likely Peter and MJ meet there for the first time. And MJ and Peter become friends owing to the trauma he experienced. And since Mary Jane drops her guard to Peter and Aunt May owing to their real grief, it's likely she opens up to Peter right away without all the defenses both put up over the years.
    -- Peter still goes to college on scholarship and meets Harry Osborn and Gwen and Flash. Would Peter have the growth spurt and grow handsome without powers, probably not. But since Norman becomes Goblin regardless, Peter might get entangled with Norman either directly or peripherally. Most likely Peter's science smarts leads to an internship at Oscorp, and Norman either press-gangs him into becoming a test subject, forces him to become a henchman, or kill him in one of his mood-swings.
    -- With Gwen, obviously with and without Spider-Man, Miles Warren would still be Miles Warren. Without Gwen's death, he might not become Jackal but best believe he'd try and Weinstein/Cosby his way with Gwen. Her father would still be endangered and liable to die from any supervillain rampage.

    Whether Peter without powers has a relationship with Mary Jane or Gwen though, who knows. I think he'd still be friendly with Mary Jane. Without the Spider-Bite, Peter never works for the Bugle or works for Jameson, so the only chance he'll cross paths with Flat-Top is 2 degrees separation via friendship with Randy Robertson (son of Robbie, friend of Jonah) in college.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-18-2020 at 07:59 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    1) Peter only does it because he has superpowers.

    2) Peter has nothing to fear, and is no danger against ordinary thugs and criminals. So he's not endangering himself on an everyday level against most common criminals.

    3) The powerful supervillains are a threat to Peter, but it's also a threat far beyond the capacity of most policemen and regular civic authorities. In other words, it's an emergency that only Spider-Man can handle. If you say other superheroes are there, they should handle it...well cops can always say there are other cops and other precincts. One superhero being on the scene and holding down some supervillains allows other supers to deal with other threats.



    I don't know how different it is from other heroes. Hank Pym destroyed his marriage permanently beyond repair because he couldn't handle being a hero. Iron Man chases away any possibility for a real relationship. Daredevil buries more girlfriends than any other hero.

    Not everyone can be like Mr. Fantastic and irradiate his partner and luck out that Susan hasn't divorced his ass for all the terrible s--ty things he has done.



    A) Doylist Level - There would be no story. There's no audience for Peter Parker, regular dude. For all that people say "Spider-Man is Peter Parker", the fact that he is Spider-Man is the most important aspect of being Peter Parker.

    B) Watsonian Level - If Peter didn't become Spider-Man...Otto Octavius would still be Doctor Octopus, Norman Osborn still becomes Green Goblin. Most of the Lee-Ditko bad guys still become the supervillains they end up becoming with and without Spider-Man, since their origins are totally separate and independent from Peter's and they had no connection to him personally (The only exceptions would be...MacGargan may not become Scorpion, no Spider-Slayers, and Kraven won't be interested in hunting down Spider-Man). So the fact is Spider-Man not being there to stop these villains and stop the damage they end up doing would mean lives lost.



    It's a moot question, because Peter Parker without the Spider-Bite would be an entirely different character.

    As a thought experiment...
    -- Uncle Ben still gets shot. That burglar robbed the studio for cash not to specifically target Spider-Man, so that happens regardless. The point of Ben's death is that it's Peter's fault because he didn't use his powers. Being Spider-Man gave him the one chance of saving him and he blew it. Obviously Uncle Ben's death would be devastating to Peter but he wouldn't really have the guilt of failing to intervene directly, but he'd still have trauma and feelings of helplessness and so on, and the issues of taking care of Aunt May.
    -- Mary Jane was next door the night Ben died, but since she saw Peter become Spider-Man, she reacted with shock and kept distance from Peter for years after that per Busiek and others. Without the Spider-Bite, Aunt May spent the night Ben died at Anna Watson's house in the aftermath just like OTL, it's likely Peter and MJ meet there for the first time. And MJ and Peter become friends owing to the trauma he experienced. And since Mary Jane drops her guard to Peter and Aunt May owing to their real grief, it's likely she opens up to Peter right away without all the defenses both put up over the years.
    -- Peter still goes to college on scholarship and meets Harry Osborn and Gwen and Flash. Would Peter have the growth spurt and grow handsome without powers, probably not. But since Norman becomes Goblin regardless, Peter might get entangled with Norman either directly or peripherally. Most likely Peter's science smarts leads to an internship at Oscorp, and Norman either press-gangs him into becoming a test subject, forces him to become a henchman, or kill him in one of his mood-swings.
    -- With Gwen, obviously with and without Spider-Man, Miles Warren would still be Miles Warren. Without Gwen's death, he might not become Jackal but best believe he'd try and Weinstein/Cosby his way with Gwen. Her father would still be endangered and liable to die from any supervillain rampage.

    Whether Peter without powers has a relationship with Mary Jane or Gwen though, who knows. I think he'd still be friendly with Mary Jane. Without the Spider-Bite, Peter never works for the Bugle or works for Jameson, so the only chance he'll cross paths with Flat-Top is 2 degrees separation via friendship with Randy Robertson (son of Robbie, friend of Jonah) in college.
    That is a pretty fascinating thought experiment you've got there. The third point listed, I could see being adapted into a What If? that might (or might not) result in Peter becoming Spider-Man, anyway, just slightly later in life and with possibly more of a Kamen Rider (the original/first series) feel, as without Spider-Man opposing Osborn/Goblin at the start, the Green Goblin likely would have managed to create a powerful crime syndicate on top of the powerful corporation he was already running as Osborn. In this case where Peter does become Spider-Man, with Osborn forcing Peter into experiments to test out biochemical and/or biogenetic enhancements or alterations, this unintentionally creates the Green Goblin's nemesis, although Osborn could easily leverage his power and position to ensure that said nemesis finds as few allies or supporters as possible no matter where he turns, forcing him into an effective one-man war with limited resources against both Osborn's corporation and the Goblin's syndicate.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That is a pretty fascinating thought experiment you've got there. The third point listed, I could see being adapted into a What If? that might (or might not) result in Peter becoming Spider-Man, anyway, just slightly later in life and with possibly more of a Kamen Rider (the original/first series) feel, as without Spider-Man opposing Osborn/Goblin at the start, the Green Goblin likely would have managed to create a powerful crime syndicate on top of the powerful corporation he was already running as Osborn. In this case where Peter does become Spider-Man, with Osborn forcing Peter into experiments to test out biochemical and/or biogenetic enhancements or alterations, this unintentionally creates the Green Goblin's nemesis, although Osborn could easily leverage his power and position to ensure that said nemesis finds as few allies or supporters as possible no matter where he turns, forcing him into an effective one-man war with limited resources against both Osborn's corporation and the Goblin's syndicate.
    What you describe is not far from Miguel O'Hara's backstory and how he became Spider-Man 2099. Corporate scientist who became a whistleblower and then made into unwitting test-subject. Peter comes into Norman's orbit when he reaches college. But how that happens will be different.

    To continue with the thought experiment, with and without Spider-Powers, Peter develops web-fluid and web-shooters...now obviously with time and other hero distractions not on his side, Peter probably finds time to hone it and develop that product, but then you wonder will he go into business for himself, or will he take it to some corporation only to have said corporation patent it and deprive Peter of profits and so on.

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    If we have to pretend Peter is a real person (which I resist - I'm of the Grant Morrison mindset that superheroes can only be real on paper), I doubt Peter would turn out a loser. The story of Spider-Man is just an exaggerated metaphor for real-life coming of age experiences that people have. Take Spider-Man out of the equation and Peter is just a guy who was nerdy in high school, grew more confident in college, and found themselves as an adult...that describes me and probably over half of the people on this forum. No one wants to read something so generic, so instead we come up with quirky things like spider-bites instead of whatever boring real event would turn a nerd's life around, and spider-powers instead of whatever actual talent people discover in their teenage years.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 07-18-2020 at 11:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    1) Peter only does it because he has superpowers.
    So do most super-heroes. Jack's right about Pete sabotaging himself, it's part of the impact Ben's death had on him, as well as Gwen's.

    2) Peter has nothing to fear, and is no danger against ordinary thugs and criminals. So he's not endangering himself on an everyday level against most common criminals.
    Wrong, he gets shot he dies.

    3) The powerful supervillains are a threat to Peter, but it's also a threat far beyond the capacity of most policemen and regular civic authorities. In other words, it's an emergency that only Spider-Man can handle. If you say other superheroes are there, they should handle it...well cops can always say there are other cops and other precincts. One superhero being on the scene and holding down some supervillains allows other supers to deal with other threats.[/quote]

    Any super-hero, you mean. They're just a Spider-man problem because it's his comic book. True, but someone's going to fill in anyway and the world won't end. That's just super-hero comics.

    I don't know how different it is from other heroes. Hank Pym destroyed his marriage permanently beyond repair because he couldn't handle being a hero. Iron Man chases away any possibility for a real relationship. Daredevil buries more girlfriends than any other hero.
    Stark has many long lasting relationships. Daredevil is also very drawn to the woman he's attracted to, even those he's not having long lasting relationship with - like Mary Walker.

    Not everyone can be like Mr. Fantastic and irradiate his partner and luck out that Susan hasn't divorced his ass for all the terrible s--ty things he has done.
    Do you read Fantastic Four comics?

    A) Doylist Level - There would be no story. There's no audience for Peter Parker, regular dude. For all that people say "Spider-Man is Peter Parker", the fact that he is Spider-Man is the most important aspect of being Peter Parker.

    B) Watsonian Level - If Peter didn't become Spider-Man...Otto Octavius would still be Doctor Octopus, Norman Osborn still becomes Green Goblin. Most of the Lee-Ditko bad guys still become the supervillains they end up becoming with and without Spider-Man, since their origins are totally separate and independent from Peter's and they had no connection to him personally (The only exceptions would be...MacGargan may not become Scorpion, no Spider-Slayers, and Kraven won't be interested in hunting down Spider-Man). So the fact is Spider-Man not being there to stop these villains and stop the damage they end up doing would mean lives lost.
    A big reason why Peter Parker is so iconic is that he's an everyman, that's the other half of the equation. People see themselves in him, or want to be with him. It means his rogues gallery would be transplanted to the numerous super-heroes in Marvel, New York City has hundreds of them.


    It's a moot question, because Peter Parker without the Spider-Bite would be an entirely different character.

    As a thought experiment...
    -- Uncle Ben still gets shot. That burglar robbed the studio for cash not to specifically target Spider-Man, so that happens regardless. The point of Ben's death is that it's Peter's fault because he didn't use his powers. Being Spider-Man gave him the one chance of saving him and he blew it. Obviously Uncle Ben's death would be devastating to Peter but he wouldn't really have the guilt of failing to intervene directly, but he'd still have trauma and feelings of helplessness and so on, and the issues of taking care of Aunt May.
    -- Mary Jane was next door the night Ben died, but since she saw Peter become Spider-Man, she reacted with shock and kept distance from Peter for years after that per Busiek and others. Without the Spider-Bite, Aunt May spent the night Ben died at Anna Watson's house in the aftermath just like OTL, it's likely Peter and MJ meet there for the first time. And MJ and Peter become friends owing to the trauma he experienced. And since Mary Jane drops her guard to Peter and Aunt May owing to their real grief, it's likely she opens up to Peter right away without all the defenses both put up over the years.
    -- Peter still goes to college on scholarship and meets Harry Osborn and Gwen and Flash. Would Peter have the growth spurt and grow handsome without powers, probably not. But since Norman becomes Goblin regardless, Peter might get entangled with Norman either directly or peripherally. Most likely Peter's science smarts leads to an internship at Oscorp, and Norman either press-gangs him into becoming a test subject, forces him to become a henchman, or kill him in one of his mood-swings.
    -- With Gwen, obviously with and without Spider-Man, Miles Warren would still be Miles Warren. Without Gwen's death, he might not become Jackal but best believe he'd try and Weinstein/Cosby his way with Gwen. Her father would still be endangered and liable to die from any supervillain rampage.
    His powers aren't what made him handsome, he was like that before the spider-bite. Miles Warren would have just become a regular stalker for Gwen, rather than the Jackal.

    Whether Peter without powers has a relationship with Mary Jane or Gwen though, who knows. I think he'd still be friendly with Mary Jane. Without the Spider-Bite, Peter never works for the Bugle or works for Jameson, so the only chance he'll cross paths with Flat-Top is 2 degrees separation via friendship with Randy Robertson (son of Robbie, friend of Jonah) in college.
    He would, even before he became Spider-man Pete was a hit with the ladies in his class, and if he went elsewhere he'd get other women's attention in that league. Despite being a photographer and not a very financially successful one he's very popular with the ladies.

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