Is Peter Parker truly a loser compared to other heroes?

[Steel Inquisitor]

How exactly is saving people self-sabotage.

Self-Sabotage is an actual word with actual meaning behind it. I have not come across a single post on this thread written by someone who understood the word meaning and applied it coherently and plausibly to Peter's story with actual reading of comics (panels + text) behind it.

Peter routinely becomes Spider-man over going on dates with his girlfriends, being unavailable to them because he's too caught up trying to stop villains when in social situations and vice versa, has problems getting things to May when she needs them like groceries and generally being a flake and he knows this screws up his life but does it anyway.

Peter's been shot numerous times, but he recovers because he has an advanced healing factor. Not Wolverine levels but more than any ordinary human. It's also very hard to shoot Spider-Man because of how fast he moves and his Spider-Sense.

He's not Wolverine, there's a reason why his first reaction is to dodge bullets than tank them. He has a higher healing factor, he's not bullet proof like Thor is. The more wounded he becomes, the easier a target he becomes when fighting people.

And how much time do you think the Fantastic Four and the Avengers will be wasting tackling with Spider-Man villains when they could devote all their time to cosmic and mystical threats as well as the Masters of Evil. It's because Spider-Man holds down so much by himself that other teams of heroes can do what they can do.

As much as the writers want them to. Spider-man himself is not a factor, it's the writers, and it's not like villains don't rotate to other heroes. Trapster fights both the FF and Spider-man, for instance. Bullseye's even taken a shot at him.

Have you read Spider-man comics? Or for that matter just Amazing Fantasy #15? Where was this ever stated in the comics.

Haven't read AF #15 but I'm an avid readers of Spider-man comics. I was mistaken.

Dan Slott in his interviews and elsewhere certainly came up with the concept that "saving people is self-sabotage", you can definitely see that wrong notion and poor concept infect his run. He called Spider-Man self-destructive numerous times and in many stories and issues completely misreads the point of Amazing Fantasy #15, namely that being Spider-Man is Peter being his best self. He's a better person for being Spider-Man the superhero. Slott's also responsible for word misue and poor understanding of concepts to justify his take.

Dan Slott isn't the first person to figure this out, and Spider-man had numerous writers explore this before he got on board. He's just acknowledging the obvious. Spider-man "being his best self" and Peter sabotaging himself aren't concepts that counter act each other. Peter's quit being Spiderman more than once because he hates how badly it messes with his life. There's far more to Spider-man than Slott's opinions, he's just a recent title holder.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Peter routinely becomes Spider-man over going on dates with his girlfriends, being unavailable to them because he's too caught up trying to stop villains when in social situations and vice versa, has problems getting things to May when she needs them like groceries and generally being a flake and he knows this screws up his life but does it anyway.

1) None of this is self-sabotage.

2) People will die if he doesn't go out right away. So this isn't something that's his fault.

He's not Wolverine, there's a reason why his first reaction is to dodge bullets than tank them. He has a higher healing factor, he's not bullet proof like Thor is.

Actually, Kurt Busiek will tell you, if you ask him on CBR or elsewhere, that Thor was never intended to be bullet-proof. Originally Lee and Kirby wrote Thor always dodging bullets or using his hammer to stave bullets off him, and it was implied that Thor could be injured by bullets which makes sense since he's a Norse god not a Greek one, i.e. part of a pantheon of vulnerable mortal deities.

The more wounded he becomes, the easier a target he becomes when fighting people.

Isn't that the same with anyone? A Sentinel can kill Wolverine. Drowning can kill Wolverine.

Spider-man "being his best self" and Peter sabotaging himself aren't concepts that counter act each other.

That is literally what is happening. "Being his best self" is as opposite to self-sabotage as being on earth is being on the moon. You cannot be on the moon and on the earth at the same time. So you cannot be your best self and sabotage at the same time.

Self-Sabotage is a specific thing. It refers to people who do stuff like procrastination, comfort eating, alcoholism, or self-harm like cutting. Self-Sabotage means a person is unable to function. That's not Spider-Man. He is functional as a superhero and in civilian endeavors. He isn't an alcoholic, he doesn't cut himself, or indulge in overeating to make himself feel better. The problem of Spider-Man is having a work/life balance which is hard because he's not rich like Stark, nor a celebrity scientist like Reed, or someone with a community like the X-Men to back him. That problem is an issue of society and not internal psychology.

[JTHM]

This is just my interpretation but I think what Spidey's saying is that Spider-man appears on the surface to be a "loser" compared to other super-heroes, who have more acclaim and are in higher social classes than he is, and the same for villains - many of which are very financially superior and stable to him so he is the underdog compared to them. Of course, being an underdog is not the same as being a loser.

Agreed with this one too. I think people confuse being the underdog with being the loser. But in a lot of cases, being the underdog and coming out on top makes you twice the winner, and I think that's the case for Spider-Man in a lot of his current incarnations.

Honestly, my only explanation as to why some people believe that Spider-Man is a loser is because they associate it with his school years, which is the 'classic' depiction and the one most used by adaptations. In which, sure, Peter started out as a kind of socially awkward nerd who gets bullied in school. So I guess a lot of people just roll with that mental image (That isn't even accurate to how he is further depicted in most mediums) and take it to the logical extreme.

[Steel Inquisitor]

1) None of this is self-sabotage.

2) People will die if he doesn't go out right away. So this isn't something that's his fault.

That's the dichotomy, saving peoples lives will alienate people in his own life. It's about the consequences on his own life that hurt him. This is toned down when people like MJ are in the loop, then they understand why he's being a flake.

Actually, Kurt Busiek will tell you, if you ask him on CBR or elsewhere, that Thor was never intended to be bullet-proof. Originally Lee and Kirby wrote Thor always dodging bullets or using his hammer to stave bullets off him, and it was implied that Thor could be injured by bullets which makes sense since he's a Norse god not a Greek one, i.e. part of a pantheon of vulnerable mortal deities.

Ok, wrong example. Black Panther.

Isn't that the same with anyone? A Sentinel can kill Wolverine. Drowning can kill Wolverine.

Spider-man is far more vulnerable to being hurt than Wolverine, and Sentinels aren't as dangerous to him as they were in the past. An ordinary person can kill Spider-man with enough bullets, Wolverine laughs them off.

That is literally what is happening. "Being his best self" is as opposite to self-sabotage as being on earth is being on the moon. You cannot be on the moon and on the earth at the same time. So you cannot be your best self and sabotage at the same time.

This assumes the "best" comes with no cost, when we know Peter being Spider-man hurts his own life. Being a flake, unreliable and having unexplained mood swings/depression (from fighting whoever as Spider-man and he can't tell anyone because he needs a secret identity to function) hurts him badly and he knows it. That's his sacrifice, he'll destroy his own life so another Uncle Ben won't happen again.

Self-Sabotage is a specific thing. It refers to people who do stuff like procrastination, comfort eating, alcoholism, or self-harm like cutting. Self-Sabotage means a person is unable to function. That's not Spider-Man. He is functional as a superhero and in civilian endeavors. He isn't an alcoholic, he doesn't cut himself, or indulge in overeating to make himself feel better. The problem of Spider-Man is having a work/life balance which is hard because he's not rich like Stark, nor a celebrity scientist like Reed, or someone with a community like the X-Men to back him. That problem is an issue of society and not internal psychology.

His civilian life has been continuously ruined by him being Spider-man, him being a flake affects everything. He knows this is the cost of being Spider-man, because he values being Spider-man more than how much it damages his life and how people view him. That's the sabotage. He lives pay check to pay check because its a tool that lets him be Spider-man, cutting down his job prospects. He's a genius, but all he does is stick with Spider-man gadgets rather than using that to become more, SpOck was the opposite - he leveraged Peter's/his inventiveness to not only "improve" how he could protect the city as Spider-man but become someone more financially stable and be his own boss. Peter's the manifestation of brilliant but lazy, that's why he's rarely moving up in the world despite his genius and capability to do so. And he's more relatable to readers as a middle class man living on the edge of being homeless if a check from J. Jonah Jameson won't clear.

[TheCape]

I can't believe that people actually believe the bull that Superior Ock said at the end of his run, seriously Ock is the last person that i would take seriously regarding the way that Peter directs his life.

[phantom1592]

Have you read Spider-man comics? Or for that matter just Amazing Fantasy #15? Where was this ever stated in the comics.

To be fair, there were a LOT of girls who were interested in Peter... 'If he'd only stop studying and hang out with them'. Pete was oblivious to his popularity, but if he had asserted himself the girls were interested.

That said, without the spider-bite, I don't think he ever would have. He would have stayed introverted and studious and one bad bullying away from becoming a full fledged Supervillain.

That is literally what is happening. "Being his best self" is as opposite to self-sabotage as being on earth is being on the moon. You cannot be on the moon and on the earth at the same time. So you cannot be your best self and sabotage at the same time.

Self-Sabotage is a specific thing. It refers to people who do stuff like procrastination, comfort eating, alcoholism, or self-harm like cutting. Self-Sabotage means a person is unable to function. That's not Spider-Man. He is functional as a superhero and in civilian endeavors. He isn't an alcoholic, he doesn't cut himself, or indulge in overeating to make himself feel better. The problem of Spider-Man is having a work/life balance which is hard because he's not rich like Stark, nor a celebrity scientist like Reed, or someone with a community like the X-Men to back him. That problem is an issue of society and not internal psychology.

It's the debate over what his best self is.... vs. what he THINKS his best self is. For the average person, 'Being their best self' means having a steady upward going career, A wife, Children, stable relationships and peace... That's the dream. And Pete sacrifices that every time he blows off his civilian life to save someone else. The fact that being Spider-man makes him a better person that the 'average dream' is irrelevant. That's still the life he wants... and he acknowledges that he's self sacrificing it. Having multiple hot women is actually the OPPOSITE of what he would consider 'his best self'. It's a failure that he can't commit properly.

Which I think is the biggest issue here. Pete really isn't a 'loser'.... He BELIEVES himself to be. He has low self esteem and still thinks of himself as the lonely little nerd without friends... but it's not the reality anymore. He has a pretty good life, but still complains about the 'parker luck'. It's all a self-esteem issue.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That's the dichotomy, saving peoples lives will alienate people in his own life.

That's again true for a lot of people. I mean right now, during this pandemic, medical professionals are risking their lives, separating themselves from their families, and being poorly served by corporations and governments, and yet they still do good.

I dare you to come out and call their actions self-sabotage. If you are going to use words from real-life like "Self-Sabotage" and misapply it in a fictional context to someone who risks his life to save people...it is my prerogative to demand you apply that to people who risk their lives to save people in real life.

If we want to use the word "Self-Sabotage" in a realistic context and apply it to Marvel characters who fit, then Tony Stark is a much better example, Matt Murdock also qualifies in some stories and some runs.

Spider-man is far more vulnerable to being hurt than Wolverine, and Sentinels aren't as dangerous to him as they were in the past. An ordinary person can kill Spider-man with enough bullets, Wolverine laughs them off.

This is really bizarre. Because this applies to many superheroes Captain America is also vulnerable to bullets (hence why he uses the "mighty shield"), Tony Stark outside of his armor is also vulnerable to bullets (and booze), and then you have street heroes like Daredevil and the Punisher, who are far more underpowered than Spider-Man.

Again this standard falls apart.

I can't believe that people actually believe the bull that Superior Ock said at the end of his run, seriously Ock is the last person that i would take seriously regarding the way that Peter directs his life.

When you do a nihilistic story like Superior Spider-Man, a story with nothing to say and nothing of human concern, you need to wrap it up in some kind of concept to sell it to make people think an overly padded remake of KLH is saying something. So edgelordism often serves the day.

That said, without the spider-bite, I don't think he ever would have. He would have stayed introverted and studious and one bad bullying away from becoming a full fledged Supervillain.

This is another fallacy...i.e bullied kids are potential school shooters or potential supervillains, which is an absolutely false and pernicious idea.

Pete really isn't a 'loser'.... He BELIEVES himself to be. He has low self esteem and still thinks of himself as the lonely little nerd without friends... but it's not the reality anymore. He has a pretty good life, but still complains about the 'parker luck'. It's all a self-esteem issue.

This I agree with.

[Agent Z]

That's again true for a lot of people. I mean right now, during this pandemic, medical professionals are risking their lives, separating themselves from their families, and being poorly served by corporations and governments, and yet they still do good.

I dare you to come out and call their actions self-sabotage.

Those medical professionals are paid to save lives as well and people actually know saving lives is their job. Peter's superhero activities frequently involve lying to friends, family, employers, teachers etc which gives people the impression he is unreliable.

This is best summed up in the opening scenes of Spider-Man 2 where Peter gets fired from his job at a pizza parlor for failing to deliver an order on time and then being told by his college professor that he's failing him for the semester due to bad grades. Sure the audience knows that Peter is Spider-Man but his boss and his lecturer don't know that.

Another example would be Mark Millar's Marvel Knight Spider-Man run where Aunt May is kidnapped and Peter actually refuses the help of the Avengers.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Those medical professionals are paid to save lives as well and people actually know saving lives is their job.

They aren't paid nearly enough to do what they are doing right now, and many of them do so without having the proper equipment, and many of them are risking their lives because anti-mask people are harassing them, threatening them, and others are refusing to comply with safety protocols.

Again, explain to me how this is self-sabotage?

Peter's superhero activities frequently involve lying to friends, family, employers, teachers etc which gives people the impression he is unreliable.

You are inserting and imposing an external unrelated condition, entirely defined by society, and making that part of Peter's character. That's not how psychology works.

Peter acts because he believes by using his powers he helps people, saves lives and so on. He does this because the one time he decided to be selfish and behave as a bystander, his beloved Uncle died. Any attempt to claim Peter is sabotaging himself by helping other people is annulling the foundations of the character in AF#15. It's basically saying Peter shouldn't feel guilty for Uncle Ben's death. That kind of Zack Snyder attitude might be endorsed in a (poorly conceived) deconstruction or parody story of Peter, but it can never serve a foundation for a straight version of the character.

This is best summed up...

Let's stick to comics. The movies and adaptations by nature, by shorthand, and so on, alter the characterization and context quite far from how it is in the comics, that the insights from the comics don't apply to the movies and vice-versa.

Another example would be Mark Millar's Marvel Knight Spider-Man run where Aunt May is kidnapped and Peter actually refuses the help of the Avengers.

IIRC that has to do with Peter's fears about Norman Osborn hurting May if he got others involved, and the fact that the Avengers at that time didn't know Peter's identity (this was before New Avengers). Can you actually cite the actual panels in question?

And in either case what does that have to with "Self-sabotage". I mean Millar's MK:SM actually does show Spider-Man balancing his work and life better than usual.

[Agent Z]

They aren't paid nearly enough to do what they are doing right now, and many of them do so without having the proper equipment, and many of them are risking their lives because anti-mask people are harassing them, threatening them, and others are refusing to comply with safety protocols.

Again, explain to me how this is self-sabotage?

I already did.

You are inserting and imposing an external unrelated condition, entirely defined by society, and making that part of Peter's character. That's not how psychology works.

Psychology and society are not entirely separate and either way this is irrelevant. Many of Peter's problems come from his keeping secrets from his loved ones which he has lamented and acknowledged multiple times.

Peter acts because he believes by using his powers he helps people, saves lives and so on.

Yeah and he does this in a manner that hurts himself.

Peter Parker is a hero and Peter Parker is self-sabotaging. These two truths are not mutually exclusive.

He does this because the one time he decided to be selfish and behave as a bystander, his beloved Uncle died. Any attempt to claim Peter is sabotaging himself by helping other people is annulling the foundations of the character in AF#15. It's basically saying Peter shouldn't feel guilty for Uncle Ben's death. That kind of Zack Snyder attitude might be endorsed in a (poorly conceived) deconstruction or parody story of Peter, but it can never serve a foundation for a straight version of the character.

Geez, Snyder really does live rent free in you guys' heads doesn't he?

Let's stick to comics. The movies and adaptations by nature, by shorthand, and so on, alter the characterization and context quite far from how it is in the comics, that the insights from the comics don't apply to the movies and vice-versa.

The movies translate this problem of Peter's quite well. Why do you think MJ finding out his secret identity is presented as the best thing that happens to him in the entire film?

IIRC that has to do with Peter's fears about Norman Osborn hurting May if he got others involved, and the fact that the Avengers at that time didn't know Peter's identity (this was before New Avengers). Can you actually cite the actual panels in question?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ip_kLeXWaR...flDi1al2Uu5=s0

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CHps5Ul-Rl...cBmSzAf-uIW=s0

And in either case what does that have to with "Self-sabotage".

Everything. He turns down help from people perfectly willing to aid him because of his paranoia and lone wolf approach to being a superhero.

This was sited as a problem in #39 of Spencer's run. Jameson points out that pretty much all of Peter's issues with the public and the superhero community could have been avoided if he were a lot more open to the world and Jonah's own slanderous columns about him could have ended if he'd dropped in and just talked to him instead of antagonizing and sometimes even threatening him.

[NC_Yankee]

I already did.





Psychology and society are not entirely separate and either way this is irrelevant. Many of Peter's problems come from his keeping secrets from his loved ones which he has lamented and acknowledged multiple times.



Yeah and he does this in a manner that hurts himself.

Peter Parker is a hero and Peter Parker is self-sabotaging. These two truths are not mutually exclusive.



Geez, Snyder really does live rent free in you guys' heads doesn't he?





The movies translate this problem of Peter's quite well. Why do you think MJ finding out his secret identity is presented as the best thing that happens to him in the entire film?



https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ip_kLeXWaR...flDi1al2Uu5=s0

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CHps5Ul-Rl...cBmSzAf-uIW=s0



Everything. He turns down help from people perfectly willing to aid him because of his paranoia and lone wolf approach to being a superhero.

This was sited as a problem in #39 of Spencer's run. Jameson points out that pretty much all of Peter's issues with the public and the superhero community could have been avoided if he were a lot more open to the world and Jonah's own slanderous columns about him could have ended if he'd dropped in and just talked to him instead of antagonizing and sometimes even threatening him.

I cannot disagree more with this assessment. Peter has made the decision to remain Peter Parker instead of being a 24/7 superhero. Why? He wants to have a life outside stopping bad guys. He knows very well that he cannot remain with MJ or any non super powered woman for long because some bad guy with a grudge will go after her like Osborn did with Gwen. The very reason why you have few superhero/civilian relationships is because they become targets like Gwen was. As far as the superhero community is concerned, Peter would rather be with MJ instead of having a beer with say Wolverine. Also as far as The Avengers are concerned, he has always been treated as comedy relief and never the equal of Cap, Iron Man etc so he is reluctant to take help from them.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I already did.

So you agree that you describe medical professionals as self-sabotaging? Do you confirm that?

Peter Parker is a hero and Peter Parker is self-sabotaging. These two truths are not mutually exclusive.

Yeah they are. People who are actually self-sabotaging (and again it's a real life word, please look it up) aren't capable of being heroes or anything for that matter.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ip_kLeXWaR...flDi1al2Uu5=s0

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CHps5Ul-Rl...cBmSzAf-uIW=s0

Those images don't prove your argument.

Spider-Man told the Avengers his problem that his aunt is in danger and instead the Avengers get huffy with him, with Quicksilver being a jerk and many of them making fun of him for having a secret identity. Can't the Avengers simply say, "Say nothing, we'll help you, if you want just a few of us will come on board". And in any case Spider-Man has good reasons to not trust the Avengers with his secret identity. This is an organization that has historically included many villains, including Sandman after all.

[Agent Z]

I cannot disagree more with this assessment. Peter has made the decision to remain Peter Parker instead of being a 24/7 superhero. Why? He wants to have a life outside stopping bad guys. He knows very well that he cannot remain with MJ or any non super powered woman for long because some bad guy with a grudge will go after her like Osborn did with Gwen. The very reason why you have few superhero/civilian relationships is because they become targets like Gwen was. As far as the superhero community is concerned, Peter would rather be with MJ instead of having a beer with say Wolverine. Also as far as The Avengers are concerned, he has always been treated as comedy relief and never the equal of Cap, Iron Man etc so he is reluctant to take help from them.

Other superheroes who have public identities do a much better job of protecting their loved ones than Peter. In fact, Peter not telling his girlfriends what they're in for is far more of a danger to them than a superhero targeting them.

So you agree that you describe medical professionals as self-sabotaging? Do you confirm that?

Nice try. Please avoid putting words in my mouth.

Yeah they are. People who are actually self-sabotaging (and again it's a real life word, please look it up) aren't capable of being heroes or anything for that matter.

Thanks I know what the word is.

Can't the Avengers simply say, "Say nothing, we'll help you, if you want just a few of us will come on board".

That's exactly what they offered to do.

And in any case Spider-Man has good reasons to not trust the Avengers with his secret identity.

Which would be a good argument if not for the fact that they flat out said they didn't care about his secret identity. Did you actually look at the images I linked to?

This is an organization that has historically included many villains, including Sandman after all.

Spider-Man has had allegiances with villains or morally questionable individuals like Puma, Black Cat (whom he teams up with later on), Prowler, Punisher, Solo, Deadpool and Silver Sable.

[NC_Yankee]

Other superheroes who have public identities do a much better job of protecting their loved ones than Peter. In fact, Peter not telling his girlfriends what they're in for is far more of a danger to them than a superhero targeting them.



Nice try. Please avoid putting words in my mouth.





Thanks I know what the word is.




That's exactly what they offered to do.



Which would be a good argument if not for the fact that they flat out said they didn't care about his secret identity. Did you actually look at the images I linked to?



Spider-Man has had allegiances with villains or morally questionable individuals like Puma, Black Cat (whom he teams up with later on), Prowler, Punisher, Solo, Deadpool and Silver Sable.

Peter may have not done a good job in the past ( again see Gwen), but he does have someone who understands him and how best to handle him. That of course is MJ. Does it mean she had all the answers? No but she has grown so she gets the need for Spider-Man. There is a reason why Jarvis called her “Indispensable” Peter’s biggest weakness is he does have a problem with self-esteem ( Uncle Ben, Captain Stacy, Gwen and Jean DeWolffe are a few reasons why), and puts too much pressure on himself ( “No one dies” for example). But he has someone who time and time again helps him with those issues. Besides what red blooded guy would not prefer a woman looking like MJ to hanging out with The Avengers?

[Agent Z]

Peter may have not done a good job in the past ( again see Gwen), but he does have someone who understands him and how best to handle him. That of course is MJ.

Yeah, that's my point. Peter being open with people makes his life better.

There is a reason why Jarvis called her “Indispensable” Peter’s biggest weakness is he does have a problem with self-esteem ( Uncle Ben, Captain Stacy, Gwen and Jean DeWolffe are a few reasons why),

Which causes him to take on too much all by himself.

and puts too much pressure on himself ( “No one dies” for example).
A problem solved by actually opening up to people.

But he has someone who time and time again helps him with those issues. Besides what red blooded guy would not prefer a woman looking like MJ to hanging out with The Avengers?[/QUOTE]

I don't know if this is what you mean, but at no point did I say Peter shouldn't date MJ.