Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 49
  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    4,583

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Untrue. I can think of several who have done this.
    Ultron
    Not many good stories or moments between Ultron and Dr. Strange, Ultron and Spider-Man.

    Dracula
    Ditto for Spider-Man.

    Kang
    Ditto for Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, X-Men.

    The Wrecking Crew
    Not for Dr. Strange and X-Men.

    Mephisto
    There's just a handful of good stories with Mephisto (the Silver Surfer ones, Triumph and Torment, Infinity Gauntlet as Thanos' court jester). Aside from that he's an annoying obnoxious character.

    Norman Osborn
    Norman hasn't been a Marvel-wide villain for years now, and even when he was, I don't know if many of the stories he was involved in was the best Avengers stories.

    This isnít the 70s any more.
    Doom's best stories came in the 80s: Secret Wars '84, Triumph and Torment, Interlude, Emperor Doom, the Iron Man time-travel stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    The special effects werenít there, yet.
    That applies to Doom and the Fantastic Four too no? Like the special effects weren't quite advanced in the Tim Story FF movies. And the failed 2015 movie was an issue of poor aesthetic choices made by the director who wanted to do a totally idiosyncratic approach to the character and settings.

    Whoever said that about Wonder Woman was a sexist.
    The fact is it was based on the same reasoning as Doom not working in live-action simply because everything before had failed. I am not saying that the reasoning isn't valid at all but it is if it's not qualified or considered in context. Fact is virtually everything and every character was dismissed because "it didn't work before". That's not a valid reason.

    Iíd argue that the last few FF movies would have worked if they had left Doom out. The problem was the lame threat. Everyone liked Johnny and Ben.
    The problem is also miscasting, misunderstanding, lack of sense of tone. Trying to make Reed and Sue into a cliche couple with drama and problems. Mashing together Doom's origins on top of FF's, making Galactus a sentient Gas Cloud. Making Reed into a nerdy kid rather than a type A Feynman-esque Scientist which is what he is in the comics. There are a host of problems in those movies. And even then I'd hardly call "a lame threat" in those movies as a problem. Considered as plot it's not lame at all. I did like Larry Fishburne's vocal performance as Silver Surfer for what it's worth. And Mike Chiklis as Ben Grimm. There's also problems of casting. If you want to do Doctor Doom as a major villain and do the Reed Richards rivalry justice, you can't cast Ioan Gruffudd and Julian McMahon, the former a low-key British actor whose biggest claim until then was the male lead in the 101 Dalmations sequel, and the other a TV star. You want to know why Batman and Joker worked in the movies because they cast big name actors to play those parts. If you beleive Joker is a great villain, that belief needs to be reflected in who is cast in that role and Joker has Nicholson, Ledger, Phoenix (and Leto who for what it's worth did win an Oscar and while miscast in the part is on paper a talented actor). You need big name actors to do Reed and Doom justice in live-action.

    Admittedly, there are problems with doing Doctor Doom in live action that don't exist with Magneto, Loki and even Thanos. Namely that this is a character who spends most of his time behind an iron mask. That's hard to sell and pitch to a big actor. And it's not like Darth Vader because you are supposed to see and recognize Doom's human and expressive eyes at all times. Magneto, Loki and Thanos (via CGI motion-cap) have faces to express emotion and so on. Whereas Doom needs an actor with a strong body language, sense of gesture, ability to move with costume, and vocal performance...you need a Boris Karloff type. The nearest equivalent would be Edward Norton as the Leper King Baldwin in Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Jerusalem:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbIL6nHjG78

  2. #32
    Mighty Member babyblob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    New Richmond Ohio
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Ok, I can see that. How about when he was the only one who figured out how to defeat the plan of the Beyonders? Reed's plan only allowed for a couple of life rafts to save a few dozen. Doom saved thousands if not millions.
    I didnt read that story line so I will I will take your word for it as someone more knowledgeable then me on that story. But for the most part Doom's motivations have been selfish and focus on meeting his own goals. He is noble I will say that. But I wouldn't put in the the Heroic side hardly at all.
    Favorite teams. Alpha Flight, Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    2,994

    Default

    Imo he is marvels best villain by an absolute mile

    In fact I would place him in their best few characters

    If not their very best in many ways

    But I'm biased in that he's definitely my favourite villain in all fiction, but for good reasons I feel

  4. #34
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    15,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I didnt read that story line so I will I will take your word for it as someone more knowledgeable than me on that story. But for the most part Doom's motivations have been selfish and focus on meeting his own goals. He is noble I will say that. But I wouldn't put in the the Heroic side hardly at all.
    But you have to admit when he decides to be on your side he is invaluable. I am quite fond of this recent team up in Gerry Duggan's Savage Avengers. You can't get more versatile than this either. Here you have a team up of Conan, Doom, and Doctor Strange. The cammaradie with Stephen and Victor is getting to be a thing now, even if he did kill Sheriff Strange in Secret Wars.



    Even though he was wounded himself by the evil wizard Kulan Gath, Doom sends his medic drone tech to save Stephen so that he in turn can save Doctor Voodoo




  5. #35
    Mighty Member babyblob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    New Richmond Ohio
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    But you have to admit when he decides to be on your side he is invaluable. I am quite fond of this recent team up in Gerry Duggan's Savage Avengers. You can't get more versatile than this either. Here you have a team up of Conan, Doom, and Doctor Strange. The cammaradie with Stephen and Victor is getting to be a thing now, even if he did kill Sheriff Strange in Secret Wars.



    Even though he was wounded himself by the evil wizard Kulan Gath, Doom sends his medic drone tech to save Stephen so that he in turn can save Doctor Voodoo



    I will agree he is great to have on your side. I would love to be teamed up with him.

    And I loved that issue of Savage Avengers. It was cool how he did that to save strange. But I also saw how he tried to steal the amulet himself. So it was a mix. He was a hero and he was selfish.
    Favorite teams. Alpha Flight, Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  6. #36
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    15,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I will agree he is great to have on your side. I would love to be teamed up with him.

    And I loved that issue of Savage Avengers. It was cool how he did that to save strange. But I also saw how he tried to steal the amulet himself. So it was a mix. He was a hero and he was selfish.
    True.....It's like his addiction. Put shiny powerful artifact in front of Doom and he's got to have it. He almost got killed going after the Cosmic Cube.

  7. #37
    Boisterously Confused
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    If doom is so versatile, why has he failed so miserably as a movie villain? Magneto and Loki donít seem to have that problem. Thanos also proved to be a threat across the cinematic universe.
    Dude, I don't say this a lot, but you're just flat wrong.

    Dr. Doom having "failed so miserably as movie villain" has nothing to do with a flaw in the character. The Fox FF movies were s*** cinema and took all the characters - including Doom (and maybe excepting The Thing) - down with them.

    Your argument is basically that a golf club sucks because a golfer is incompetent.

  8. #38
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    15,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    Doom's best stories came in the 80s: Secret Wars '84, Triumph and Torment, Interlude, Emperor Doom, the Iron Man time-travel stories.
    Hey, let's give a little bit of love to the 90s. Doom 2099 was one of the best of the decade and featured a young Warren Ellis for the key storyline, One Nation Under Doom.



    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    The problem is also miscasting, misunderstanding, lack of sense of tone. Trying to make Reed and Sue into a cliche couple with drama and problems. Mashing together Doom's origins on top of FF's, making Galactus a sentient Gas Cloud. Making Reed into a nerdy kid rather than a type A Feynman-esque Scientist which is what he is in the comics. There are a host of problems in those movies. And even then I'd hardly call "a lame threat" in those movies as a problem. Considered as plot it's not lame at all. I did like Larry Fishburne's vocal performance as Silver Surfer for what it's worth. And Mike Chiklis as Ben Grimm. There's also problems of casting. If you want to do Doctor Doom as a major villain and do the Reed Richards rivalry justice, you can't cast Ioan Gruffudd and Julian McMahon, the former a low-key British actor whose biggest claim until then was the male lead in the 101 Dalmations sequel, and the other a TV star. You want to know why Batman and Joker worked in the movies because they cast big name actors to play those parts. If you beleive Joker is a great villain, that belief needs to be reflected in who is cast in that role and Joker has Nicholson, Ledger, Phoenix (and Leto who for what it's worth did win an Oscar and while miscast in the part is on paper a talented actor). You need big name actors to do Reed and Doom justice in live-action.

    Admittedly, there are problems with doing Doctor Doom in live action that don't exist with Magneto, Loki and even Thanos. Namely that this is a character who spends most of his time behind an iron mask. That's hard to sell and pitch to a big actor. And it's not like Darth Vader because you are supposed to see and recognize Doom's human and expressive eyes at all times. Magneto, Loki and Thanos (via CGI motion-cap) have faces to express emotion and so on. Whereas Doom needs an actor with a strong body language, sense of gesture, ability to move with costume, and vocal performance...you need a Boris Karloff type. The nearest equivalent would be Edward Norton as the Leper King Baldwin in Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Jerusalem:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbIL6nHjG78
    I agree about the casting of Doom for the MCU....I don't think you can get a big name to go for it without some adjustments along the way. It will take some creativity to get it done....maybe a few scenes where the actor is not in full armor and is only seen in darkly lit scenes.

    BTW Like the shout out for Boris Karloff, an underrated actor. Sure the Jack Pierce make up was a big factor too. But having little dialogue to work with he did achieve a memorable performance as Frankenstein's monster.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    4,583

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Hey, let's give a little bit of love to the 90s. Doom 2099 was one of the best of the decade and featured a young Warren Ellis for the key storyline, One Nation Under Doom.
    Right, and there are great stories with Doom even after that, like Books of Doom in the 00s, and in the 2010s you have Hickman's run and now Cantwell.

    I agree about the casting of Doom for the MCU....I don't think you can get a big name to go for it without some adjustments along the way. It will take some creativity to get it done....maybe a few scenes where the actor is not in full armor and is only seen in darkly lit scenes.
    I think if you get a big enough actor to do an entire origin movie or Triumph and Torment and so on, that might tempt a big name actor. Then you can do scenes with Doom sans mask and all scarred up (like Esad Ribic's design of a maskless Doom) and that might allow actors to emote a bit. Getting Norton back to do Doom might not be a bad idea but he might not be up to it owing to his experiences with MCU. The way to sell Doom to an actor is to promise them two whole solo movies, multiple individual movies and Secret Wars, where they spend most of the movie without a mask and a fully healed face (similar to the end of Secret Wars '84 which made it clear that a Doom with a fully repaired face is recognizably still the same character as before).

    BTW Like the shout out for Boris Karloff, and underrated actor. Sure the Jack Pierce make up was a big factor too. But having little dialogue to work with he did achieve a memorable performance as Frankenstein's monster.
    Karloff was a genuinely great actor. And he would have made a brilliant Doom in his prime but alas. Yeah you need an actor to really commit to the physicality and theatricality of Doom. Someone like Nicolas Cage. Edward Norton in Kingdom of Heaven is the main reference here. He proved you can act behind a face-mask and steal the movie with your work. Norton's turn as King Baldwin was really astonishing because it wasn't just a vocal performance, he put his body into it, and a lot of life and real detail into his performance. Adam Driver captured some of those qualities in his turn in the first half of The Force Awakens which was mostly under that Kylo Ren helmet and he really communicated a sense of character and personality under that mask.

  10. #40
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    15,214

    Default

    I'm going to have to look into that Kingdom of Heaven film sometime soon..it's not like I have more important things to do these days!

  11. #41
    Mighty Member your_name_here's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    1,210

    Default

    Osborn strangely had potential during Dark Reign.

  12. #42
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    15,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Osborn strangely had potential during Dark Reign.
    Yeah, he had a run for a while but it didn't last. I think it's hard to see him having any relevance outside the world of Spider-Man. His rise to power had to have a lot of pieces set into place to work. No one seems to be interested in doing that again. You have to wonder how anyone having as bad a record as Norman (and that was just the things publicly known about him) would have gotten vetted and allowed to serve in the government like he did. But then comic book writers don't get into all that much realism when it comes to things like that.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    4,583

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yeah, he had a run for a while but it didn't last. I think it's hard to see him having any relevance outside the world of Spider-Man. His rise to power had to have a lot of pieces set into place to work. No one seems to be interested in doing that again.
    Osborn's time as "top cop" was interesting in parts. But ultimately it felt impersonal and too much of a stunt. Fact is, the only way it could have worked as a personal story if it led to an elevation of Spider-Man alongside him, and it was Spider-Man who brought him down, instead it's the Avengers who beat him up. So the finale is three heroes - Iron Man, Cap, Thor -- having a big crossover showdown with a bad guy against whom they have no personal stakes. Having said that, some great stuff came out of it (like Kelly Sue DeConnick's OSBORN miniseries, Hickman's Dark Reign:Fantastic Four mini which was the start of his epic run).

    To return on topic, Osborn as top villain was a role that only he could have played. Because Spider-Man villains in general, and Norman Osborn in particular, have Marvel's most notable US Civilian Villains.

    If you look at Avengers villains and FF villains they are mostly international -- Baron Zemo is Nazi, Red Skull is Nazi, Namor is Atlantean (when he's feeling like a villain), Doom is Latverian, HYDRA is Nazi. Mandarin is a little interdiminate these days, but he was Chinese. The big X-Men villains -- Magneto is stateless but he was German Jewish by birth, Israeli by immigration, and eventually vaguely European, these days he's Krakoan. Then you have Apocalypse who is Ancient Egyptian (literally). So a lot of the big Marvel-wide villains tend to be foreigners. If you want to do a story where you have a villain in charge of, or empowered by the US government, it makes no sense to have it be Zemo or Doom. Among the civilian villains, Wilson Fisk is too street level and it's always a stretch to make him work as a villain against superpowered people, so Norman Osborn fits the bill.

    Fundamentally, Norman Osborn's time as "top cop" was about a supervillain in charge of State Power against superheroes. It was about making the Avengers feel like the X-Men for a while or as Bendis put it, "making the Avengers feel like Spider-Man does". It's a good concept but it was probably not fully executed well.

    You have to admit that anyone having as bad a record as Norman (and that was just the things publicly known about him) would have gotten vetted and allowed to serve in the government like he did. But then comic book writers don't get into all that much realism when it comes to things like that.
    I wouldn't be too sure about that...especially these days.

    I don't know if Osborn's time as "top cop" was well done or that it could have been done better. But I think the concept underneath it is sound, and Norman Osborn/Green Goblin (Marvel's third most recurring villain after Doom and Magneto) fills a niche nobody else did at the time.

  14. #44
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    15,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Osborn's time as "top cop" was interesting in parts. But ultimately it felt impersonal and too much of a stunt. Fact is, the only way it could have worked as a personal story if it led to an elevation of Spider-Man alongside him, and it was Spider-Man who brought him down, instead it's the Avengers who beat him up. So the finale is three heroes - Iron Man, Cap, Thor -- having a big crossover showdown with a bad guy against whom they have no personal stakes. Having said that, some great stuff came out of it (like Kelly Sue DeConnick's OSBORN miniseries, Hickman's Dark Reign:Fantastic Four mini which was the start of his epic run).

    To return on topic, Osborn as top villain was a role that only he could have played. Because Spider-Man villains in general, and Norman Osborn in particular, have Marvel's most notable US Civilian Villains.

    If you look at Avengers villains and FF villains they are mostly international -- Baron Zemo is Nazi, Red Skull is Nazi, Namor is Atlantean (when he's feeling like a villain), Doom is Latverian, HYDRA is Nazi. Mandarin is a little interdiminate these days, but he was Chinese. The big X-Men villains -- Magneto is stateless but he was German Jewish by birth, Israeli by immigration, and eventually vaguely European, these days he's Krakoan. Then you have Apocalypse who is Ancient Egyptian (literally). So a lot of the big Marvel-wide villains tend to be foreigners. If you want to do a story where you have a villain in charge of, or empowered by the US government, it makes no sense to have it be Zemo or Doom. Among the civilian villains, Wilson Fisk is too street level and it's always a stretch to make him work as a villain against superpowered people, so Norman Osborn fits the bill.

    Fundamentally, Norman Osborn's time as "top cop" was about a supervillain in charge of State Power against superheroes. It was about making the Avengers feel like the X-Men for a while or as Bendis put it, "making the Avengers feel like Spider-Man does". It's a good concept but it was probably not fully executed well.



    I wouldn't be too sure about that...especially these days.

    I don't know if Osborn's time as "top cop" was well done or that it could have been done better. But I think the concept underneath it is sound, and Norman Osborn/Green Goblin (Marvel's third most recurring villain after Doom and Magneto) fills a niche nobody else did at the time.
    It certainly did expand his reach in the MU since the reason why he's the third most recurring is the many appearances in various Spider-Man titles. He was never co-opted as someone else's main menace like Kingpin was when he became more of a Daredevil adversary. Some villains gain prominence and then are "put back in the box" for a while. This has pretty much happened with the Hood but not sure about that since I have a small pull list these days...when there are actually new comics to be read! (When is Doctor Doom #7 going to be released?!!?)

    A bit OT: Never read the Osborn mini but definitely read Hickman's Dark Reign Fantastic Four tie in. I knew he would be a good fit for the FF after reading that just by the way he handled the kids, particularly Franklin. The scene where Franklin shot and wounded Osborn with a toy gun was IMO brilliant. In one scene you realize that as parents of Franklin how difficult Sue and Reed's task is and how well they have done with it. Franklin could have very easily shot him between the eyes and killed him but he didn't. He defended his little sister but didn't use deadly force to do it... and he really could have done it without the "prop" of a toy gun.

  15. #45
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    312

    Default

    "(When is Doctor Doom #7 going to be released?!!?)"

    At this point, possibly 2099.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •