How do Lois Lane, Iris West, and Linda Park compare?

[Dred]

So I'm a big Wally fan so I'm absolutely biased in this topic, but there is one stone cold fact that separates Linda from Iris or Lois.

Iris and Lois were created to be love interests that fawn over the Superhero whose franchise they're in. Things change and retcon over the years, but that is definitely what they were created to be.

Linda was created to be her own character. As a matter of fact, she was originally created to be antagonistic towards Wally because, at the time, Wally was a showoffy, big headed young man with superpowers and acted like one. Wally was in a different relationship with no particular plans to match up Wally and Linda when WML created Linda. Their relationship came about from the growth of their relationship from antagonistic, to peers, to friends, to love interests, to marriage, to family. And that natural growth, that is so characteristic of Wally's entire time as The Flash, was something that was constant through their history until they got rid of them.

Lois has gotten more screentime and, frankly, more individual development due to sheer volume but her character history is a thousand times more inconsistent than Linda's because of it.

I just take issue with the idea that Linda is a Lois imitation when she was actually an original character.

And, on a more minor note, Linda's relationship to Wally is tied into his powers. If Lois disappeared Superman doesn't stop being Superman. And the lightning rod concept was obviously something Barry and Iris took from Wally and Linda, not vice versa. Superman isn't any less Superman without Lois and that story has been told a dozen times (though sometimes you get your Injustice style elseworlds that crap on Superman's character via Lois death). But it's demonstrable fact that Wally couldn't be Wally without Linda. His powers wouldn't work right and what we find core about him as a character dissolves pretty quickly without her. The Waid era, Wally's defining era, was kicked off with them starting a relationship after all.

To some degree, Waid's absolute love of Superman and obviously Lois probably leaned him, subconsciously or consciously, to making the female reporter Wally's love interest. So in that very vague, several degrees removed way Linda is a Lois derivative. But I think it's clearly different enough in that way.

Hell, think about it this way. It took...70 years for Lois and Clark to have a kid (I'm talking about Chris, btw, not Jon. If you don't think Chris counts then add 10 years). Wally and Linda were in a relationship from 92 onwards and their relationship fully developed to that stage by 2005 -- 13 years. And it wasn't some breakneck rush, their relationship was the core of the book nearly that entire time and was certainly a better developed relationship in that era than Clark and Lois. And that's a testament to how well they fit together, that they never really split up for an entire period to do weird rompy stories (hello Byrne) because people can easily imagine a Lois-less Superman. I can't imagine a Linda-less Wally any more and the second they brought Wally back the first thing he does is think about Linda. When Superman ate the New 52 retcon bullet they were shipping him with Wonder Woman.

[manwhohaseverything]

So I'm a big Wally fan so I'm absolutely biased in this topic, but there is one stone cold fact that separates Linda from Iris or Lois.

Iris and Lois were created to be love interests that fawn over the Superhero whose franchise they're in.

Linda was created to be her own character. As a matter of fact, she was originally created to be antagonistic towards Wally because, at the time, Wally was a showoffy, big headed young man with superpowers and acted like one. Wally was in a different relationship with no particular plans to match up Wally and Linda when WML created Linda. Their relationship came about from the growth of their relationship from antagonistic, to peers, to friends, to love interests, to marriage, to family. And that natural growth, that is so characteristic of Wally's entire time as The Flash, was something that was constant through their history until they got rid of them.

Lois has gotten more screentime and, frankly, more individual development due to sheer volume but her character history is a thousand times more inconsistent than Linda's because of it.

I just take issue with the idea that Linda is a Lois imitation when she was actually an original character.

That is true. Lois is more biased towards the concept of superman. She has reasons and it does prove right. But, she is biased. Some biases build history as long as you are honest about your bias and let truth be decided by time.

But, i don't think she was created just to be superman's love interest. Why? She is the first lady of action comics. She was strong, independent, vulnerable, competent... Etc on her own right.Superman and lois was'nt exactly a match made in heaven either. Siegel and shuster refused to get them married cause of issue with superman's genre becoming more sitcom/drama, than action/adventure. They loved elseworlds like that though.

Also, Clark's and lois's relationship evolved just like that as well. Notice, i am saying clark, who is postcrisis superman.There was no fake identity.

[Dred]

That is true. Lois is more biased towards the concept of superman. She has reasons and it does prove right. But, she is biased. Some biases build history as long as you are honest about your bias and let truth be decided by time.

But, i don't think she was created just to be superman's love interest. Why? She is the first lady of action comics. She was strong, independent, vulnerable, competent... Etc on her own right.Superman and lois was'nt exactly a match made in heaven either. Siegel and shuster refused to get them married cause of issue with superman's genre becoming more sitcom/drama, than action/adventure. They loved elseworlds like that though.

Also, Clark's and lois's relationship evolved just like that as well. Notice, i am saying clark, who is postcrisis superman.There was no fake identity.

There are dozens, probably hundreds of cases where Lois is not strong, independent, or competent in the face of Superman's star. Lois, and Iris, unfortunately existed in a time where women in comics were very often treated as secondary objects. Linda was lucky enough to exist in a time where nearly all her writers had at least a basic common respect for female characters, even if they weren't all ideal at writing her.

And you make my point for me. Editorial would have to tip toe around the necessary content of Lois and Superman. This has never been the case with Wally and Linda. And I'm sure you can attribute some of that to the unfortunately cut short duration of Wally and Linda's place as relevant characters before Barry and Iris kicked them out. But it's true none the less. Their time in the sun is shorter but a lot, lot, lot less stupid and up and down. Clark and Lois' relationship never actually had that kind of development curve because there'd always be some kind of wrench thrown into it. By the time DC's editors actually decided to stick with it...The New 52 happened and it was undone again. Then they had to retcon it back into reality.

Wally and Linda got there in 13 years, no stupid interruptions, no stupid retcons. Even when they got smacked by the New 52 like Lois and Clark or Barry and Iris what was the first thing Wally worried about? Linda Park. With Superman we got a freaking superhearing pseudo-cuckolding scene. And with Barry we got the obviously doomed to failure Patty sub-romance.

[Noodle]

He would take opinion from bibbo or perry or jimmy or dan turpin..... Etc(list is pretty long) as well. Heck! He has taken advice and heard opinions from a hitman named tommy who is hired gun and kills people. Superman when written right, not only doesn't judge. but also, talks to everyone as one of them. That doesn't mean they keep him in check.Which is my only issue with your interpretation.

Opinions hold different weight. He'll listen to Bibbo or Turpin, but their opinion won't hold the impact it would if it came from Lois. Not to mention he wouldn't go to them for the same issues he would go to Lois with. Just like any marriage, there are issues you would go to your spouse with that you would never go to your drinking buddies with. He just happens to be the most powerful man on the planet.

[manwhohaseverything]

There are dozens, probably hundreds of cases where Lois is not strong, independent, or competent in the face of Superman's star. Lois, and Iris, unfortunately existed in a time where women in comics were very often treated as secondary objects. Linda was lucky enough to exist in a time where nearly all her writers had at least a basic common respect for female characters, even if they weren't all ideal at writing her.

And you make my point for me. Editorial would have to tip toe around the necessary content of Lois and Superman. This has never been the case with Wally and Linda. And I'm sure you can attribute some of that to the unfortunately cut short duration of Wally and Linda's place as relevant characters before Barry and Iris kicked them out. But it's true none the less. Their time in the sun is shorter but a lot, lot, lot less stupid and up and down.

The character is 80 years old. And women charcters have been in media have been subjected to many thing. I am going right to the first and creators view. Siegel and shuster's lois lane is everything i described her to be. Lois in action comics #1 is bad ass women. Lois in max fleischer superman cartoon is gun toating, plane flying.. Etc chick who would kick in the balls if you look at her funny.

Opinions hold different weight. He'll listen to Bibbo or Turpin, but their opinion won't hold the impact it would if it came from Lois. Not to mention he wouldn't go to them for the same issues he would go to Lois with. Just like any marriage, there are issues you would go to your spouse with that you would never go to your drinking buddies with. He just happens to be the most powerful man on the planet.

Yeah! Dan's opinions are very impactful for clark and so is perry's. They both are his father figure, he didn't have them in many continuities, so perry especially matters. Jimmy is a friend. And Tommy when he was alive gave superman one heck of an advice that impacted him and how he viewed things. Bibbo is more someone who took the ideals of superman and became one himself in his own right. Not by beating monsters. Just by beating his own alcoholism and helping his neighbourhood. If not superman, i would admire bibbo. A working class man trying to do the right thing, fighting for truth and justice has always been superman. I have to believe superman does as well.

[Dred]

The character is 80 years old. And women charcters have been in media have been subjected to many thing. I am going right to the first and creators view. Siegel and shuster's lois lane is everything i described her to be. Lois in action comics #1 is bad ass women. Lois in max fleischer superman cartoon is gun toating, plane flying.. Etc chick who would kick in the balls if you look at her funny.

Right, they're 80 years old. You think they would've gotten to the developed relationship potential that Wally and Linda did decades before Linda Park even existed. But they didn't. That is literally my point. Linda was never not awesome, whereas Lois often wasn't. Iris certainly is the worst of the three in this category as she was all the worst things about Lois dialed up to 10 for YEARS. It wasn't until Barry died that more of her character started to shine through.

[Noodle]

The character is 80 years old. And women charcters have been in media have been subjected to many thing. I am going right to the first and creators view. Siegel and shuster's lois lane is everything i described her to be. Lois in action comics #1 is bad ass women. Lois in max fleischer superman cartoon is gun toating, plane flying.. Etc chick who would kick in the balls if you look at her funny.


Yeah! Dan's opinions are very impactful for clark and so is perry's. They both are his father figure, he didn't have them in many continuities, so perry especially matters. Jimmy is a friend. And Tommy when he was alive gave superman one heck of an advice that impacted him and how he viewed things. Bibbo is more someone who took the ideals of superman and became one himself in his own right. Not by beating monsters. Just by beating his own alcoholism and helping his neighbourhood. If not superman, i would admire bibbo. A working class man trying to do the right thing, fighting for truth and justice has always been superman. I have to believe superman does as well.

I guess it's an agree to disagree thing then. We clearly have different opinions on the Lois/Clark dynamic.

[Dred]

Also, something I kind of stupidly glossed over that I think is very important: Wally and Linda's relationship is interracial.

I know that is not a big deal now, but even in the 90s it was super uncommon and it is obviously different from Lois and Clark or Barry and Iris. As an obvious result their kids, Iris and Jai, are biracial. Whereas Jon Kent and Don and Dawn are white as snow. How important this is to other people I guess varies but it's certainly a very, very obvious difference in comparison. When we lost the Wests we lost an enormous chunk of representation in The Flash and DC as a whole.

[manwhohaseverything]

Right, they're 80 years old. You think they would've gotten to the developed relationship potential that Wally and Linda did decades before Linda Park even existed. But they didn't. That is literally my point. Linda was never not awesome, whereas Lois often wasn't. Iris certainly is the worst of the three in this category as she was all the worst things about Lois dialed up to 10 for YEARS. It wasn't until Barry died that more of her character started to shine through.

I am sorry, that seem a little prejudicst. Lois wasn't some lame character either. She just had rough time with later interpretations after second world war. And she straightened herself in Post-Crisis back more and her relationship development in Post-Crisis is good as any or even better. So much so that i am constantly being saying superman has become a drama and romance character. Which is blah! For me. Moreover, goldenage and silverage was episodic story telling. Developing things wasn't a thing till later years. Anyone who thinks lady action is boring. I respect their opinions, i disagree.Lois in the pulp era was cool. Lois in post crisis is cool. Lois in silverage had some cool, funny and goofy thing like becoming a witch. She even had long running series goldenage to silverage. So, she had an audience. She still does. Hence, she still gets a maxi now and then. She is pretty popular and intergral part of action comics. She is as important to that as zatara or superman himself.

[Tzigone]

In terms of their careers, Lois is definitely the powerhouse award-winning journalist, and primarily an investigative one. Iris also seems to be an investigative reporter as she's always going to events (often with Barry), and seems to write for a Central City news outlet Picture News. Linda Park could definitely use a twist, though being a media presenter is fairly different in itself. I think all of them could keep their jobs as long as the details are updated.

I never really felt that Iris was an investigative reporter in the old silver-age stories. She went to events and covered stories. But she was always there in a official capacity that I saw. Didn't sneak around like Lois. Or poke into records or whatnot. Just covered the story in a very general reporter way. Ask questions, print answers. So I'd say she was a reporter, but not an investigative reporter.

Linda did undercover work, early. Different medium than the one the others are more associated with, so that's a point of differentiation. It may her more know to the public than a print reporter. I never got that sense that Iris was a famous reporter in the sense that Lois is, that she's a household name, easily recognizable to the general public.

Iris and Lois were created to be love interests that fawn over the Superhero whose franchise they're in. Things change and retcon over the years, but that is definitely what they were created to be.

Nope. Iris, while a fan of the Flash, very much did not fawn over him and was quite different in that she was typically written with no romantic interest in the Flash at all and was already dating Barry before he became the Flash.

And, on a more minor note, Linda's relationship to Wally is tied into his powers. If Lois disappeared Superman doesn't stop being Superman. And the lightning rod concept was obviously something Barry and Iris took from Wally and Linda, not vice versa. Superman isn't any less Superman without Lois and that story has been told a dozen times (though sometimes you get your Injustice style elseworlds that crap on Superman's character via Lois death). But it's demonstrable fact that Wally couldn't be Wally without Linda. His powers wouldn't work right and what we find core about him as a character dissolves pretty quickly without her. The Waid error, Wally's defining era, was kicked off with them starting a relationship after all.

I very much disagree with this assessment. Wally was around, and a hero, decades before Linda. Iris and Lois were there from day one. They are more entwined in the mythos. Especially Lois, who's almost never absent in any spinoff or other media Superman (not boy) adaptation.

Right, they're 80 years old. You think they would've gotten to the developed relationship potential that Wally and Linda did decades before Linda Park even existed. But they didn't. That is literally my point. Linda was never not awesome, whereas Lois often wasn't. Iris certainly is the worst of the three in this category as she was all the worst things about Lois dialed up to 10 for YEARS. It wasn't until Barry died that more of her character started to shine through.

Can't agree with this either. Now, Lois had ghastly times, but started fantastic. Silver age was dreadful for her. Iris was good in the silver age. She was a supporting character, not the hero, but she was not a conniving, marriage-chasing user trying to get a hero to marry her (hi, Lois and Steve in your worst representations that I erase from my mind). Iris was pretty much ignored in the bronze age, only showing up occasionally to nag or serve dinner until killed off, I admit. Terrible use of what was an enjoyable character to me

I don't agree, either with the notion of comparing pre-bronze-age and modern characters on an even playing. The entire genre and writing for the medium is just too different for it to be fair for them to be put head to head, IMO. And a longer history and more writers means more variability and inconsistency (for heroes, too).



I'd say it's indisputable that Lois is the most highly regarded journalist of the lot. For me, she's the best reporter in the DC-verse. Also the more important in a meta-sense - she's the reason so many heroes dated reporters (though some didn't keep it up). Not so important now, but golden age storytelling it was a good way to further the plot and generation action scenes. She's a household name to us.

I don't think the three have the same personalities (and I do think Iris has been made more Lois-like in action in a way that makes her less distinct in some more recent iterations). Iris never took the physical risks or got into trouble (and subsequently either needed rescuing or took out the bad guys herself) the way Lois did back in the old days. Over on the Superman thread we've talked about heroes having supporting characters and when they had more ordinary, not-best-in-the-world ones. For me, that was Iris. Good reporter. Successful. Working at a sizable paper in a largish city (large by my standards, anyway). But not the best in the world.


I don't like the idea of any of the heroes not being heroes if they never met the women they fell in love with. It's an insult to them. They were all heroes without input from those women. Because that's who they are. It's the same way I disliked using Jonathan/Jor-El to instruct Clark to be a hero or Barry needing death as a motivation. It lessens the heroism, and makes the character more passive or reactive than proactive.

[Dred]

I am sorry, that seem a little prejudicst. Lois wasn't some lame character either. She just had rough time with later interpretations after second world war. And she straightened herself in Post-Crisis back more and her relationship development in Post-Crisis is good as any or even better. So much so that i am constantly being saying superman has become a drama and romance character. Which is blah! For me. Moreover, goldenage and silverage was episodic story telling. Developing things wasn't a thing till later years. Anyone who thinks lady action is boring. I respect their opinions, i disagree.Lois in the pulp era was cool. Lois in post crisis is cool. Lois in silverage had some cool, funny and goofy thing like becoming a witch. She even had long running series goldenage to silverage. So, she had an audience. She still does. Hence, she still gets a maxi now and then. She is pretty popular and intergral part of action comics. She is as important to that as zatara or superman himself.

Again, this doesn't really excuse anything. Lois and Clark were a thing before Wally and Linda were in Post Crisis too, but they still got lapped. And that is because, fundamentally, Linda and Wally's relationship was more core to them as characters and the comic they were in than Lois and Clark is to the Superman family of titles. Hell, Superman had eras of MULTIPLE comics at the same time to Flash's singular title for ages (I guess impulse counts as a spinoff but Wally and Linda weren't present in that comic, unlike, say, Action Comics with Lois and Clark). When the focus of your story is on the relationship, the relationship develops. That is frequently not the case with Clark and Lois. This thread is about comparing the different Hero/Reporter relationships and this is an obvious comparison.

Waid envisioned his entire Flash run as a love story between Wally and Linda. Even if a Superman writer loved Lois and Clark, their relationship was only focused on for one arc or so before moving on to other things. That was not the case with Wally and Linda.

[Dred]

I very much disagree with this assessment. Wally was around, and a hero, decades before Linda. Iris and Lois were there from day one. They are more entwined in the mythos. Especially Lois, who's almost never absent in any spinoff or other media Superman (not boy) adaptation.

Kid Flash Wally, I suppose. Flash Wally wasn't around long before Linda showed up. But that isn't my point. When you showed up isn't as important as how foundational you are to the character. Wally doesn't have a Fiona Webb. Wally doesn't have a Wonder Woman. When Wally came back to a retconned universe the first thing he did was look for Linda. Superman started smooching a demigoddess and Barry and Iris weren't even friends until a few retcons later. And I believe this is the case because I don't think Wally West, as The Flash, works without Linda anymore.

And maybe it is a case of Barry and Superman being more important and so they screw with them more to try new things out. But there's a dozen other reasons for me to believe that Linda and Wally's relationship is treated as more foundational to the two of them than Barry and Iris or Clark and Lois. At least until they write it otherwise.

If we're talking about other adaptations, we've had one adaptation with Wally as The Flash...Justice League. Which, even though Wally's romantic life was nothing but a gag, they STILL had Linda Park show up in one of the two Wally centric episodes JL ever had. If Wally got his own damn TV show or his own damn movies as The Flash I'm sure Linda would appear in them just as Lois does in Superman's myriad representations. But Wally isn't popular enough for that so it's kind of a moot point.

[manwhohaseverything]

Again, this doesn't really excuse anything. Lois and Clark were a thing before Wally and Linda were in Post Crisis too, but they still got lapped. And that is because, fundamentally, Linda and Wally's relationship was more core to them as characters and the comic they were in than Lois and Clark is to the Superman family of titles. Hell, Superman had eras of MULTIPLE comics at the same time to Flash's singular title for ages (I guess impulse counts as a spinoff but Wally and Linda weren't present in that comic, unlike, say, Action Comics with Lois and Clark). When the focus of your story is on the relationship, the relationship develops. That is frequently not the case with Clark and Lois. This thread is about comparing the different Hero/Reporter relationships and this is an obvious comparison.

Waid envisioned his entire Flash run as a love story between Wally and Linda. Even if a Superman writer loved Lois and Clark, their relationship was only focused on for one arc or so before moving on to other things. That was not the case with Wally and Linda.

No, they didn't get "lapped". Superman's marriage was postponed because he got a series and they had to kill him off.Superman might have had multiple comics. But it requires demand for putting something on shelf. They don't have demand for bibbo, krypto, perry.. Etc. Lois and jimmy are the only ones that get that luxury. As said, lois means a lot to many female readers from what i have seen or heard from. What are you talking about? One of the reasons new52 superman sank was lois lane not being there and her relationship with clark not being anything. The entire books are about lois and clark. Which yeeesh! For me. As said, the books had become too much drama and romance. Linda not being there wouldn't sink an interpretation of wally i am sure.(i do believe that can be good and bad. Good, if it's not a shipping thing. Bad, if it is)

[Dred]

No, they didn't get "lapped". Superman's marriage was postponed because he got a series and they had to kill him off.Superman might have had multiple comics. But it requires demand for putting something on shelf. They don't have demand for bibbo, krypto, perry.. Etc. Lois and jimmy are the only ones that get that luxury. As said, lois means a lot to many female readers from what i have seen or heard from. What are you talking about? One of the reasons new52 superman sank was lois lane not being there and her relationship with clark not being anything. The entire books are about lois and clark. Which yeeesh! For me. As said, the books had become too much drama and romance. Linda not being there wouldn't sink an interpretation of wally i am sure.(i do believe that can be good and bad. Good, if it's not a shipping thing. Bad, if it is)

Wally died like 5 times so I'm not sure that is an excuse.

Because when Wally died Linda was literally there to bring him back. Same for when Linda died -- twice!

I'm not sure why your excuse is "Well the relationship wasn't deemed as important as this other storyline, so the development of it got delayed" when that is literally my entire point. Wally and Linda's relationship was the most important thing in Wally's stories. The Death of Superman was more important in Superman than progressing his relationship with Lois. And this is almost always the case. The death of Wally West was used to further Wally and Linda's relationship. Over the course of any particular Superman run usually the focus of the run isn't entirely based on Superman and Lois' relationship. Like, you're saying you disagree with me while literally repeating the premises that make up my conclusion.

Lois is definitely infinitely more important, iconic, and beloved than Linda. Female readers knowing her and idolizing her is certainly something in her favor as a character. I would never argue that. I wish Linda was more well known so she could, I don't know, get her own solo series and do more interesting things but no one cares about Wally and Linda besides a small subsection of Flash fans. An even larger of subsection would probably rather they never be starring in The Flash ever again.

[manwhohaseverything]

Wally died like 5 times so I'm not sure that is an excuse.

Because when Wally died Linda was literally there to bring him back. Same for when Linda died -- twice!

I'm not sure why your excuse is "Well the relationship wasn't deemed as important as this other storyline, so the development of it got delayed" when that is literally my entire point. Wally and Linda's relationship was the most important thing in Wally's stories. The Death of Superman was more important in Superman than progressing his relationship with Lois. And this is almost always the case. The death of Wally West was used to further Wally and Linda's relationship. Over the course of any particular Superman run usually the focus of the run isn't entirely based on Superman and Lois' relationship. Like, you're saying you disagree with me while literally repeating the premises that make up my conclusion.

Lois is definitely infinitely more important, iconic, and beloved than Linda. Female readers knowing her and idolizing her is certainly something in her favor as a character. I would never argue that. I wish Linda was more well known so she could, I don't know, get her own solo series and do more interesting things but no one cares about Wally and Linda besides a small subsection of Flash fans. An even larger of subsection would probably rather they never be starring in The Flash ever again.

Lois and clark were mandated to not get married because a tv show was airing. Death was one of the reasons they used. They used many other excuses afterwards as well. Lois makes money for the company as part of brand superman to an extent. So there is mandates put on for restriction.