The one subtle element that's needed to make a shared universe work...

[Hybrid]

The characters must live in the world as though it's real.

Think about this: In comic books, especially ones from before the mid-'10s, you know how characters will casually reference events that happened in the past, even elsewhere in the sense that they heard of it or saw it on the news, and speak to each other like that's just one thing that happened out of many things going on? Often, this is accompanied by an asterisk and an editor's note saying something like "To know what they're talking about, read this issue!".

I've been reading up on '80s Marvel and this happens a lot. I've seen big X-Men stories get referenced offhandedly in Spider-Man comics, big Avengers stuff being talked about elsewhere, the Fantastic Four's current status quo effecting other stories in a subtle way. Then of course, they'll happen by each other, talk and remark something about the past. That's a tight connection, and a shared universe running at an optimal level.

Which brings me to the main point. A key factor in a shared universe is that it actually feels like a world that's lived in. One where people live their own lives, their own perspectives, their own struggles, and their own place on the map. They know each other, but to widely varying degrees, and they aren't all buddy buddy or enemies all the time.

For example, in the Spider-Man comics, the Avengers are just a famous team off in the distance and divorced from his own life. The Fantastic Four are closer to him, but they're more like the rich relatives you might be on good terms with, and visit every now and then: not core to your own life story. The Avengers also see the X-Men distantly as an outcast vigilante group off to their own troubles, and the X-Men view the Avengers in the distance as celebrities. It's why in those superhero comics, when they do meet, the reactions can run the gamut of "Nice to see you, friend!" to "You're so overrated/You're too small fry", "God, I hate you", "Uh, do I know you?" and "Nice to meet for the first time!".

In modern comics, I don't feel that. Everyone jumps between "I want to kill you because it's an event" or "You're so awesome because the company is trying to shill you". Little middle ground. Going beyond that, many shared universe attempt falter partly due to this reason. The world doesn't actually feel lived in, and thus it doesn't feel real, thus it's hard to get invested in it.

So I think if you're going to try to make a true shared universe, it has to feel like one where people, actual people, live in it. It's not just a platform for one story after another. That's why some worlds just weren't meant to be shared universes, because they were made with a single protagonist in mind (like Harry Potter). Others will completely half-ass it hoping to make money, but not consider the actual values that a shared universe has in story potential. There's a reason why the concept of a shared universe has existed for a long time, and it wasn't because they wanted to make blockbusters.

What do you guys think? There might be more to add and discuss to this. It's interesting stuff if you ask me, and it's why the shared universe is such a coveted thing that few actually get right. If you have anything to say, feel free to do so.

[babyblob]

One thing I liked in the new Gwen Stacy series is how they talk about events happening in the Spider Universe bu in a causal way. Like the news story on the tv in the backround is talking about Uncle Ben's Murder. And the police talk about The Goblin going against Lucky Lobos gang.

Maybe not a shared universe because she is a Spiderman character but it was still pretty cool.

[JackDaw]

It (the characters acting as if its real world) is an important element for sure...but not the only important thing.

I think it’s an element that’s been missing for decades...as have other important elements.

One thing that does my nut in in on big cross-over events is that both D.C. and Marvel have not taken their characters claimed power sets seriously for decades.

The idea of Batman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye surviving against a competent gun man (let alone “master assassin”) is laughable..yet in team events, big cross-overs they regularly go up against powerhouses, alien tech, etc and not only survive..but prosper.

It all sort of worked decades ago when villains just sought to rob banks and outwit the heroes...and extreme violence (certainly maiming or killing) was off the table...but it really doesn’t work in the modern tales which feature lashings of violence.

Sure some one will trot out “It’s comics”. But no...it’s just the way DC and Marvel decide to write their super hero comics, and if you were setting up universes from scratch you’d almost certainly want to make them more coherent.

[mathew101281]

The vast majority of individual franchises within a shared universe need to be able to stand on their own. The problem with many shared universes is that people barely care about individual franchises, yet they expect you to care when a bunch of mediocre franchises connects. A well run shared universe has well run base properties, that each has iconic or popular things to bring with them to the team up.

[Hybrid]

The vast majority of individual franchises within a shared universe need to be able to stand on their own. The problem with many shared universes is that people barely care about individual franchises, yet they expect you to care when a bunch of mediocre franchises connects. A well run shared universe has well run base properties, that each has iconic or popular things to bring with them to the team up.

That's why launching a line as shared universe from the beginning is a bad idea. It just doesn't work, because it's inorganic. It always fails. If you want to do a shared universe, you have to build it up. For example:

Marvel didn't launch a line where the Fantastic Four, Hulk, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Thor, Captain America, Daredevil, X-Men, Doctor Strange, and the Avengers were released at once (or in an extremely close vicinity of each other). The Marvel Universe began with the Fantastic Four. That was literally it when the universe started. Then they introduced Namor in FF, ground zero for the MU and integrating the Timely era in the continuity. Then they did Hulk, followed by Spider-Man, who then had the FF appear in his first ongoing issue to sell shared world. Then we got Ant-Man and the Wasp, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, the X-Men, the Avengers, Doctor Strange, Daredevil. This was a span of roughly three years. They continued from there, where more characters branched out and introduced newcomers of their own.

These greedy and shortsighted corporations trying to make a shared universe for profit don't realize that you have to actually build an audience for it to work. The rest of the MU wouldn't exist if no one was interested in the Fantastic Four. When people are interested in the base product, they'll be interested in other products set in the same world.

This isn't like rocket science, yet it might as well be considering how many people trying to make shared universes don't get this.

[babyblob]

I do enjoy a shared universe for the most part. I think its cool Spiderman and the Xmen meet up and have adventures. But they each title should stand alone. The problem with the shared universe is that it leads to meaningless events and crossover every year. The kind where if you read Avengers you have to get Howard the Duck to get the next part.

[DrNewGod]

...One thing that does my nut in in on big cross-over events is that both D.C. and Marvel have not taken their characters claimed power sets seriously for decades.

The idea of Batman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye surviving against a competent gun man (let alone “master assassin”) is laughable..yet in team events, big cross-overs they regularly go up against powerhouses, alien tech, etc and not only survive..but prosper...

Agreed. Both companies were better about this kind of thing in the past, but Marvel in particular. Although these characters coexisted in their shared-verse, there were clearly identifiable realms in which various heroes operated. Some characters, certainly, were given a bit of plot armor (Black Panther, Captain America and Hawkeye in the Avengers, for example) to let them play in a bigger pond than their weight-class might justify. However, you weren't going to get a Batman-evading-Omega-Beams effect; if Cap tangled with Namor, Cap was getting spanked (absent some out like severe dehydration).

That's why launching a line as shared universe from the beginning is a bad idea. It just doesn't work, because it's inorganic. It always fails. If you want to do a shared universe, you have to build it up. For example:

Marvel didn't launch a line where the Fantastic Four, Hulk, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Thor, Captain America, Daredevil, X-Men, Doctor Strange, and the Avengers were released at once (or in an extremely close vicinity of each other). The Marvel Universe began with the Fantastic Four. That was literally it when the universe started. Then they introduced Namor in FF, ground zero for the MU and integrating the Timely era in the continuity. Then they did Hulk, followed by Spider-Man, who then had the FF appear in his first ongoing issue to sell shared world. Then we got Ant-Man and the Wasp, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, the X-Men, the Avengers, Doctor Strange, Daredevil. This was a span of roughly three years. They continued from there, where more characters branched out and introduced newcomers of their own.

These greedy and shortsighted corporations trying to make a shared universe for profit don't realize that you have to actually build an audience for it to work. The rest of the MU wouldn't exist if no one was interested in the Fantastic Four. When people are interested in the base product, they'll be interested in other products set in the same world.

This isn't like rocket science, yet it might as well be considering how many people trying to make shared universes don't get this.

What's interesting to me is that Feige's MCU did exactly what you describe in (relatively) slowly building their shared-verse, and it worked really well. It's almost ironic that both comic and movie franchises followed this pattern out of necessity. Making an FX-heavy major film is expensive (Iron Man's budget was $140M), and there was no guarantee it would succeed, nor any guarantee the formula would continue to succeed. In 1961, Kirby certainly had a track record, but there was no guarantee any of those first experiments in what would become the Marvel Universe would work either. Marvel had tried reviving both Captain America and the Submariner in the 1950s, and it didn't work. 1961's smart money would have said you can't make superheroes comics work outside the proven Big 5 at DC, much the same way 2008's smart money would have said nothing but Spider-Man or the X-Men from Marvel was going to make any money at the box office.

In both cases, by building up the properties, letting fans connect to them bit by bit, and become vested in the way the properties interconnect, Marvel Comics and the MCU built strong continuities that fans care about. The obvious contrast for that is Warner Brothers' efforts to rapidly build a DCEU, but there are other examples. Every time you turned around in the 1990s, Malibu or Valiant or Image was trying to hand you a universe, and none of them had that organic quality you mention.

As Baby Blob has pointed out, the problem now is that publishers are frantic to leverage those continuities to cross-sell books using events. The writers and editors are not investing in trying to establish the world in which their characters live, just to harvest from it.

[CaptCleghorn]

The vast majority of individual franchises within a shared universe need to be able to stand on their own. The problem with many shared universes is that people barely care about individual franchises, yet they expect you to care when a bunch of mediocre franchises connects. A well run shared universe has well run base properties, that each has iconic or popular things to bring with them to the team up.

Exactly this. If a franchise can't get me to respect it, why should I care if it teams up with other franchises I don't really care about in a BIG event. Once the parts are functional and awesome, then the appeal for crossovers and team-ups happen. Also, as mentioned, the asides to previous stories and other "Easter Eggs" help focus on a franchise as part of a shared universe. Alfred giving Bruce a copy of the Daily Planet, or Spider-Man swinging by a window with Nelson and Murdock, Attorneys at Law are example of this.

[GindyPosts]

The vast majority of individual franchises within a shared universe need to be able to stand on their own. The problem with many shared universes is that people barely care about individual franchises, yet they expect you to care when a bunch of mediocre franchises connects. A well run shared universe has well run base properties, that each has iconic or popular things to bring with them to the team up.

And you know what they say that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, right?

I know we talk primarily in a comics sense, since this is, well, a comic forum, but let's also look at non-comic crossovers, and how they succeed or fail. For example, the recent video game flop Jump Force (from the Jump Weekly manga series) in particular, did a rather poor story exploring how characters from some manga interact with one another on an actual Earth (which is meant to be a multiverse diverging on one timeline, so this both counts and doesn't count), even on a meta scale, and discounting a few cosmetic or awareness problems (such as the game being overly saturated with franchises that have a bloated media presence like "Dragon Ball", "One Piece", "Naruto", and "My Hero Academia" while ignoring others without much of a presence like "City Hunter", "Black Clover" and "Saint Seiya", or not bothering with recent entries that may have helped sales like "One Punch Man" and "The Promised Neverland"), people didn't go towards it like the Nintendo DS entries of the mid 2000s. The story had to incorporate a couple of original characters created by Akira Toriyama wreaking havoc and several characters being forced to "work with the devil they know" in Light Yagami from "Death Note", who isn't a playable character, yet it might as well have been one of the many Nicktoons crossover games 15 years ago.

While crossovers don't actually count to the discussion, as they clearly can go all fan-service or denigrate certain franchises, I'm more experienced with understanding the nuance about these, and ironically, when you're trying to incorporate a series about a cop and a series about people who fight with, as a famous YouTuber once put it, "a children's card game" to be on par with actual gods and warriors who can reach the strength of godhood to fight interdimensional threats, sure there's some dissonance the viewer has to accept, but you also have to address that, you, the writer, need to recognize that there's no way the cop or the card game duelists (even if one is an Egyptian pharaoh) match the strength of a literal god, regardless of the "it's a video game" excuse, so just accept it and recognize roles that they are able to play in the story. In the case of countless DC storylines, it seems, arguably one of the most mortal heroes they have, Batman, is the one who always ends up saving the day and solving the problem. You have people with actual superpowers, and yet it's the guy who has to rely on gadgets and his own wits who defeats opponents who have both superpowers AND gadgets.

[Farealmer]

That's why launching a line as shared universe from the beginning is a bad idea. It just doesn't work, because it's inorganic. It always fails. If you want to do a shared universe, you have to build it up. For example:

Marvel didn't launch a line where the Fantastic Four, Hulk, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Thor, Captain America, Daredevil, X-Men, Doctor Strange, and the Avengers were released at once (or in an extremely close vicinity of each other). The Marvel Universe began with the Fantastic Four. That was literally it when the universe started. Then they introduced Namor in FF, ground zero for the MU and integrating the Timely era in the continuity. Then they did Hulk, followed by Spider-Man, who then had the FF appear in his first ongoing issue to sell shared world. Then we got Ant-Man and the Wasp, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, the X-Men, the Avengers, Doctor Strange, Daredevil. This was a span of roughly three years. They continued from there, where more characters branched out and introduced newcomers of their own.

These greedy and shortsighted corporations trying to make a shared universe for profit don't realize that you have to actually build an audience for it to work. The rest of the MU wouldn't exist if no one was interested in the Fantastic Four. When people are interested in the base product, they'll be interested in other products set in the same world.

This isn't like rocket science, yet it might as well be considering how many people trying to make shared universes don't get this.

I'd argue media type has a big part to play in this as well. Comics can afford more hits than movies or video games.

[Kuro no Shinigami]

The characters must live in the world as though it's real.

Think about this: In comic books, especially ones from before the mid-'10s, you know how characters will casually reference events that happened in the past, even elsewhere in the sense that they heard of it or saw it on the news, and speak to each other like that's just one thing that happened out of many things going on? Often, this is accompanied by an asterisk and an editor's note saying something like "To know what they're talking about, read this issue!".

I've been reading up on '80s Marvel and this happens a lot. I've seen big X-Men stories get referenced offhandedly in Spider-Man comics, big Avengers stuff being talked about elsewhere, the Fantastic Four's current status quo effecting other stories in a subtle way. Then of course, they'll happen by each other, talk and remark something about the past. That's a tight connection, and a shared universe running at an optimal level.

Which brings me to the main point. A key factor in a shared universe is that it actually feels like a world that's lived in. One where people live their own lives, their own perspectives, their own struggles, and their own place on the map. They know each other, but to widely varying degrees, and they aren't all buddy buddy or enemies all the time.

For example, in the Spider-Man comics, the Avengers are just a famous team off in the distance and divorced from his own life. The Fantastic Four are closer to him, but they're more like the rich relatives you might be on good terms with, and visit every now and then: not core to your own life story. The Avengers also see the X-Men distantly as an outcast vigilante group off to their own troubles, and the X-Men view the Avengers in the distance as celebrities. It's why in those superhero comics, when they do meet, the reactions can run the gamut of "Nice to see you, friend!" to "You're so overrated/You're too small fry", "God, I hate you", "Uh, do I know you?" and "Nice to meet for the first time!".

In modern comics, I don't feel that. Everyone jumps between "I want to kill you because it's an event" or "You're so awesome because the company is trying to shill you". Little middle ground. Going beyond that, many shared universe attempt falter partly due to this reason. The world doesn't actually feel lived in, and thus it doesn't feel real, thus it's hard to get invested in it.

So I think if you're going to try to make a true shared universe, it has to feel like one where people, actual people, live in it. It's not just a platform for one story after another. That's why some worlds just weren't meant to be shared universes, because they were made with a single protagonist in mind (like Harry Potter). Others will completely half-ass it hoping to make money, but not consider the actual values that a shared universe has in story potential. There's a reason why the concept of a shared universe has existed for a long time, and it wasn't because they wanted to make blockbusters.

What do you guys think? There might be more to add and discuss to this. It's interesting stuff if you ask me, and it's why the shared universe is such a coveted thing that few actually get right. If you have anything to say, feel free to do so.

Don't forget interactions with street heroes such as Luke Cage and Falcon who are mainly concerned with neighborhood issues .

Or interactions with royalty like Black Panther.

Young Avengers are a team of young inexperienced people trying to emulate the older heroes.

Runaways are a bunch of frightened children minding their own business.

Power Pack is a close-knit family of siblings

[JackDaw]

Both DC and Marvel have the notion that there are many universes.

That is potentially a way to tell coherent stories...you just start telling the stories in a fresh universe, and build it from the ground

Marvel have tried that at least a couple of times...most notably in the Ultimate line. I’m sure opinions vary on the success of that venture..but I thought it was a big success...with for example the retelling of the Spider-man story.

I thought DC might take a similar line when they re-introduced the multiverse..I thought they might de-clutter the main story telling universe, make its continuity more coherent.

And take some real chances. Let Batman get married, for example. And take a few real other risks...for example either put Green Arrow on a world in the Middle Ages where bow and arrows shenanigans makes sense, or power him up for the modern age

Instead..DC took the opportunity to make things more complicated than ever.

[GindyPosts]

Both DC and Marvel have the notion that there are many universes.

That is potentially a way to tell coherent stories...you just start telling the stories in a fresh universe, and build it from the ground

Marvel have tried that at least a couple of times...most notably in the Ultimate line. I’m sure opinions vary on the success of that venture..but I thought it was a big success...with for example the retelling of the Spider-man story.

I thought DC might take a similar line when they re-introduced the multiverse..I thought they might de-clutter the main story telling universe, make its continuity more coherent.

And take some real chances. Let Batman get married, for example. And take a few real other risks...for example either put Green Arrow on a world in the Middle Ages where bow and arrows shenanigans makes sense, or power him up for the modern age

Instead..DC took the opportunity to make things more complicated than ever.

Do we need to talk about Dark Apocalypse and how unnecessary that was as a project that was?

[Powerboy]

That idea that they all live in a shared world but have their own lives and own perspectives goes back to the very beginning of Marvel Comics, as soon as there were two ongoing characters.

An example of that took place on the "Jessica Jones" series when she referred to Captain America as "The Flag Waver". She doesn't know him. To her, that's all he is.

It's not entirely different than the first meeting of Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four where he assumed they were making millions personally and drew a huge salary when they made relatively little personally because it mostly went back into research (well, okay, they live free of rent and utility costs in a business mansion with those costs going out of business expenses) and he left not sure that was the truth and maybe they thought they were too good for him.

[babyblob]

I did like Spiderman Annual 1 for a shared universe kind of thing but I also didnt like a couple ways they did it in that issue. The thing I didnt like. When Spiderman was on a flagpole reading a paper Thor flies by and knocks him off. Then later Peter sees Giantman and the Wasp stopping a theft. I mean New York is a huge place and he just happens to come in contact with two heroes in a short time.

What I did like. JJ calling the Fantastic Four for help when he is threatened by the Sinister Six. I mean they are the most well known team at the time so why not call them? the Reed called The Avengers to ask about Spiderman. Another thing I liked is after Spiderman defeats Electro Ironman shows up. That could happen, Ironman is always at Starks places because Hell he is Stark.