The myth that Barry Allen is "boring": where did it start?

[Rend20]

That doesn't pass the smell test. I can believe that Wolfman might have said something like that--comic book professionals say a lot of things that I take with a grain of salt--they are pestered with so many questions that they just say whatever will shut people up. But he would have known better than to say something so simplistic.

It's from an interview in the Flash Companion book.

"I understood though that Barry was a fairly boring character in terms of his personality. By the 1980's, comic books had progressed to have stronger characterization, but The Flash was presenting that whole long, convoluted prison story ["The Trial of The Flash"], and I think that may have really hurt the character in everyone's mind. DC believed at that point Barry Allen couldn't be redeemed."

Now this isn't Wolfman saying he agreed with that perspective about The Trial of The Flash. Just how he believes it was received by editorial and fans.

[Jim Kelly]

I like the original LAW & ORDER because the main characters don't get in the way of the episode's plot. In fact, the few times when we see Lenny struggling with his gambling addiction or Jack being too familiar with his A.D.A detract from my appreciation, I just want the show to be a procedural and that's when it's at its best.

In the same way, what was good about the classic run of the Flash was the plotting. You could infer things about the characters of Barry and Iris, but the main attraction of the comic was these amazing adventures. During the relevance era, writers had characters go on these long rants about their feelings--but Barry was largely spared from that embarrassment. Cary Bates being such a good plotter, the comics were enjoyable for all the action in them.

I suppose that makes me superficial. But some comics are best if the main characters know enough to get out of the way of the plot. If you think that means the characters are boring so be it--but that's missing the point of what those comics are for.

[Buried Alien]

I like the original LAW & ORDER because the main characters don't get in the way of the episode's plot. In fact, the few times when we see Lenny struggling with his gambling addiction or Jack being too familiar with his A.D.A detract from my appreciation, I just want the show to be a procedural and that's when it's at its best.

In the same way, what was good about the classic run of the Flash was the plotting. You could infer things about the characters of Barry and Iris, but the main attraction of the comic was these amazing adventures. During the relevance era, writers had characters go on these long rants about their feelings--but Barry was largely spared from that embarrassment. Cary Bates being such a good plotter, the comics were enjoyable for all the action in them.

I suppose that makes me superficial. But some comics are best if the main characters know enough to get out of the way of the plot. If you think that means the characters are boring so be it--but that's missing the point of what those comics are for.

I find myself agreeing, Jim.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Darknight Detective]

Except the idea that "Barry is boring" existed before Wally became the Flash. There are certainly some Wally fans who hold and push that idea, but the idea existed long before then. Even Wolfman, who didn't want to kill Barry off, referred to him as a 'fairly boring character' personality wise while citing The Trial of the Flash as the likely final nail in the coffin.

Here's the problem with that: if Barry was boring, then why replace him with Wally when the latter was a slightly less likable version of Barry during the New Teen Titans era? BTW, Wolfman didn't like writing Wally stories for TNTT, either.

[Rend20]

Here's the problem with that: if Barry was boring, then why replace him with Wally when the latter was a slightly less likable version of Barry during the New Teen Titans era? BTW, Wolfman didn't like writing Wally stories for TNTT, either.

I mean, there was a push from people like Wolfman to make a new character named McKenzie Ryan(?) the new Flash. But based on interviews and such, they went with Wally because a) he was a name readers were somewhat familiar with and b) he was easier to revamp.

I mean, wasn't Wally's characterization in the beginning of his Flash run with Baron pretty much the opposite of Barry?

[Midnighter]

When you have to graft/ape half of Wally's mythology to make him a viable character in the modern age you know you have a problem.

Not to mention since he's been brought back the only consistent characterization he's been given has been from Williamson and even then only because he's been on the title for such a long time.

12 years after his return and he's still not a character at this point ,he's a Cipher.

Here's the problem with that: if Barry was boring, then why replace him with Wally when the latter was a slightly less likable version of Barry during the New Teen Titans era? BTW, Wolfman didn't like writing Wally stories for TNTT, either.

Because the choice was made over his head by editorial. He wanted Kimyo Hoshi to replace Barry.

[The Darknight Detective]

I mean, there was a push from people like Wolfman to make a new character named McKenzie Ryan(?) the new Flash. But based on interviews and such, they went with Wally because a) he was a character readers were somewhat familiar with and b) he was easier to revamp.

I mean, wasn't Wally's characterization in the beginning of his Flash run with Baron pretty much the opposite of Barry?

But like what happened to other DC characters after the reboot, they could have changed Barry's personality just as easily post-COIE. As for McKenzie Ryan (oy!), that they were even thinking of that tells you that DC management didn't really see that much of a difference between Barry and Wally at the time.

[The no face guy]

100% X-men and Marvel. The audience was getting older and Marvel hit the zeitgeist while characters like Barry were the most notable who didn't. Death of Iris is one of the most obvious attempts at a late attempt to win back that waning audience.

Ah, that is what I thought. I remember the rise of the X-men's dominance in popularity well, the only thing that DC had to rival it at the time, was the incarnation of the Dark Knight and the return of Batman being a more gritty superhero. unfortunately the apple pie good guy seemed to struggle in the late 80's until at least the early 2000's.

I would love to be able to find some pre 1984 comic sales, if such a thing exists. All I can find is Comicon's Diamond numbers.

[The Darknight Detective]

I think in part it had to do with disgruntled Wally West fans. Barry Allen was out of the picture pretty much from 1985 to 2009, that's almost 25 years...a long time. So I think there was a lot of resentment because Wally West not only held the title for so long, but also because Barry Allen died one of the most noble deaths in the DC Universe, and it was generally accepted that the mantle had been rightly passed on. (though maybe not for Barry fans)

Anytime I read or hear about any character being boring, my first impression is that the person in question is a fan of another character with the same powers and/or codename and is conducting a propaganda war in favor of his or her favorite. I rarely ever come across the word when it involves a character not in competition with anybody, at any rate.

[Rend20]

But like what happened to other DC characters after the reboot, they could have changed Barry's personality just as easily post-COIE. As for McKenzie Ryan (oy!), that they were even thinking of that tells you that DC management didn't really see that much of a difference between Barry and Wally at the time.

Well, there wasn't much difference between Barry and Wally character-wise at that point.

The difference is Barry was the face of the Flash book for decades and that perception would carry over with him, at least initially. Wally fully allowed them to sell the New Flash angle while his character was never in the spotlight like Barry was up to that point. At best, Wally was a bit player in NTT before he was written out.

According to Mike Gold, who was the first editor for Wally's run, the goal was "not to write anything that was at all similar to the Barry Allen Flash". You can't really do that if you're writing Barry Allen.

[The Darknight Detective]

Well, there wasn't much difference between Barry and Wally character-wise at that point.

The difference is Barry was the face of the Flash book for decades and that perception would carry over with him, at least initially. Wally fully allowed them to sell the New Flash angle while his character was never in the spotlight like Barry was up to that point. At best, Wally was a bit player in NTT before he was written out.

According to Mike Gold, who was the first editor for Wally's run, the goal was "not to write anything that was at all similar to the Barry Allen Flash". You can't really do that if you're writing Barry Allen.

But you didn't have to write Barry the same, just like DC wasn't writing Clark, Diana, etc. the same after 1985.

[The no face guy]

Anytime I read or hear about any character being boring, my first impression is that the person in question is a fan of another character with the same powers and/or codename and is conducting a propaganda war in favor of his or her favorite. I rarely ever come across the word when it involves a character not in competition with anybody, at any rate.

Lol, case in point. I remember the Green Lantern DC comic message boards well...shame they got shut down. Well as long as the people doing the debating were actually around when Barry Allen was supposedly boring in the early 80's (As opposed to a teen engaging in revisionist comic history) I don't have a problem with it

[Rend20]

But you didn't have to write Barry the same, just like DC wasn't writing Clark, Diana, etc. the same after 1985.

But if you're going to turn Barry into a radically different character, then what's the problem with replacing him?

It's far easier to sell "this isn't your previous Flash title" with a new lead than it is with the same character that's been around for decades. Not to mention Barry's death was a pretty big deal on top of that. Those in charge simply believed getting rid of Barry at that time brought more positives than keeping him around did. They didn't have to get rid of him, but felt it was for the best at the time.

[The Darknight Detective]

But if you're going to turn Barry into a radically different character, then what's the problem with replacing him?

There isn't a problem, other than the fact they were radically changing Barry Jr. instead. It's not like Barry was even that much older than Wally, since he was only in his late twenties.

It's far easier to sell "this isn't your previous Flash title" with a new lead than it is with the same character that's been around for decades. Not to mention Barry's death was a pretty big deal on top of that. Those in charge simply believed getting rid of Barry at that time brought more positives than keeping him around did.

Well, since they tanked his title with The Trial of Barry Allen, you're probably right. However, that's different than "Barry is boring, so we'll replace him with his redheaded double!"

[Rend20]

There isn't a problem, other than the fact they were radically changing Barry Jr. instead.

Except there is a huge difference between radically changing a character who has had their own book for years versus a relatively minor character who mostly appeared in a team book as a bit player. Barry had perceived baggage that Wally didn't in the eyes of editorial at the time.

However, that's different than "Barry is boring, so we'll replace him with his redheaded double!"

Barry being seen as boring is one of the reported reasons those in charge got rid of him. The fact they wanted an anti-Barry Flash run would seem to sum up how they viewed his character up to that point. Could they have tried to revamp him? Sure. But by that logic, DC should have just revamped Jay and Alan in the 1950's. But it was just easier/better to start over with someone different.